Research on Protien Intake

Chief_Rocka

The purpose of this is not to try to pinpoint what an "optimal" protein intake is, I'm not sure we'll ever have a concrete answer to that question anyway. Absent any evidence that high protein intake is harmful, there's really no good reason to take a mimilist approach to protein intake.

The current RDA for protein intake is .8g/kg of bodyweight. The real kicker here is that they claim that there is no benefit to eating more than that. I simply want to arm people with research that disputes this.

So, here we go:

1.4-2g of protein per kg of bodyweight is beneficial for individuals engaged in intense exercise:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20048505
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19278045
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17908291
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18500966

2-3g/kg is beneficial for athletes:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14971434

Older subjects lost lean mass getting the RDA protein recommendations (.8g/kg):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11382798

Double the RDA outperformed the RDA for individuals in a calorie deficit:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/495538
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16046715

Triple the RDA outperformed the RDA for individuals in a calorie deficit: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19927027

Subjects with a 1.5g/kg protein intake lost fat and gained lean mass:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10838463

Of people that don't exercise, high protien intake causes less lean-mass loss:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17299116

SideSteel

Stickied, thanks Rock. I'll take a look at the studies and if I know of anything relevant to add later I'll toss it in the mix.

Sarauk2sf

Thank you for posting. I think it would be great to use this thread to add any other studies we may come across as this is such a widely debated topic.

Crankstr

thank you!

mmapags

Awesome work brother!! Thanks

yecatsml

Thanks for posting! A nice concise list all in one place!

magerum

Solid as usual, thanks Rock.

sam308lbs

Superb!! fantastic work Rock!!

shoes_4_me

Apologies in advance for the uneducated question . So, does this mean I should be trying to take in 1.5g of protein per pound to body weight or lean body mass? I'm doing more strength training now (3x per week) and trying to decrease overall body fat a bit as well. Just trying to figure out target on protein and wasn't sure if it was calculated off body weight or LBM. Thanks for these great links.

SideSteel

Apologies in advance for the uneducated question . So, does this mean I should be trying to take in 1.5g of protein per pound to body weight or lean body mass? I'm doing more strength training now (3x per week) and trying to decrease overall body fat a bit as well. Just trying to figure out target on protein and wasn't sure if it was calculated off body weight or LBM. Thanks for these great links.

Please see the stickied post in this group regarding intake recommendations.

BinaryPulsar

Thanks!

CoderGal

Thanks for the research!

MiguelX66

Great stuff, and thanks to Sara for linking to this in another thread earlier today. Last night my wife and I were talking about protein intake (RDA level vs MFP level vs the above research) so this is very helpful!

verdemujer

bump

heybales

Here was an article that got in to some other studies, and some that were mentioned already. Notice this one is mainly regarding grams per total weight, not LBM.

And of course specific to lifters already at healthy bodyfat levels. But still interesting what levels prevented loss during cuts, and more experienced needed less.

http://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

Here are some highlights.

I only included them if they controlled for sweating and dietary adaptation periods.

• Tarnopolsky et al. (1992) observed no differences in whole body protein synthesis or indexes of lean body mass in strength athletes consuming either 0.64g/lb or 1.10g/lb over a 2 week period. Protein oxidation did increase in the high protein group, indicating a nutrient overload.
• Walberg et al. (1988) found that 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain positive nitrogen balance in cutting weightlifters over a 7 day time period.
• Tarnopolsky et al. (1988) found that only 0.37g/lb was required to maintain positive nitrogen balance in elite bodybuilders (over 5 years of experience, possible previous use of androgens) over a 10 day period. 0.45g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass in bodybuilders over a 2 week period. The authors suggested that 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders.
• Lemon et al. (1992) found no differences in muscle mass or strength gains in novice bodybuilders consuming either 0.61g/lb or 1.19g/lb over a 4 week period. Based on nitrogen balance data, the authors recommended 0.75g/lb.
• Hoffman et al. (2006) found no differences in body composition, strength or resting hormonal concentrations in strength athletes consuming either 0.77g/lb or >0.91g/lb over a 3 month period.

Based on the sound research, many review papers have concluded 0.82g/lb is the upper limit at which protein intake benefits body composition (Phillips & Van Loon, 2011). This recommendation often includes a double 95% confidence level, meaning they took the highest mean intake at which benefits were still observed and then added two standard deviations to that level to make absolutely sure all possible benefits from additional protein intake are utilized. As such, this is already overdoing it and consuming 1g/lb ‘to be safe’ doesn’t make any sense. 0.82g/lb is already very safe.

The picture below summarizes the literature. As you can see, 1.8g/kg (0.82g/lb) is the point at which additional protein intake ceases to yield any benefits.

A final objection that is often heard is that these values may be true during bulking or maintenance periods, but cutting requires more protein to maintain muscle mass. Walberg et al. (1988) studied cutting weightlifters and they still found 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass.

There is normally no advantage to consuming more than 0.82g/lb (1.8g/kg) of protein per day to preserve or build muscle. This already includes a very safe mark-up. There hasn’t been any recorded advantage of consuming more than 0.64g/lb. The only exceptions to this rule could be individuals with extraordinarily high anabolic hormone levels.

3foldchord

THANKS! this might be what I was looking for! I keeping reading that TOO MUCH can be harmful, but I know a 'nice good amount' is needed. (I do an average of 140) - I been wondering where to find this research and if there is a TOO MUCH amount really.

aakaakaak

THANKS! this might be what I was looking for! I keeping reading that TOO MUCH can be harmful, but I know a 'nice good amount' is needed. (I do an average of 140) - I been wondering where to find this research and if there is a TOO MUCH amount really.

Considering ketosis as an effective weight loss mechanism (short term), probably not until you consume more calories than your TDEE with the additional calculated ketosis loss, if there is one. (I have no idea if there's a calculator for that, or even if it works that way.)

SideSteel

THANKS! this might be what I was looking for! I keeping reading that TOO MUCH can be harmful, but I know a 'nice good amount' is needed. (I do an average of 140) - I been wondering where to find this research and if there is a TOO MUCH amount really.

I'm not aware of a well defined upper-limit for people who don't already have pre-existing kidney issues.

nmtGurl

I'm not aware of a well defined upper-limit for people who don't already have pre-existing kidney issues.

I agree with SS. As long as your BUN, GFR, and serum creatinine levels are normal, I wouldn't worry.
If you have exisitng kidney issues, a nephrologist would guide you in appropriate protein intake.

FWIW, I was born with one kidney (no issues though) and my protein intake varies between .8 - 1g per lbm. No deleterious effects...as of yet

CoderGal

While in a debate with PU on protein intake he mentioned:
"Bales posted a few studies the other day about lower protein intake... and everyone agreed with it". I asked haybales if he could put up a post for the public to discuss:

"The authors suggested that 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders. "
" As you can see, 1.8g/kg (0.82g/lb) is the point at which additional protein intake ceases to yield any benefits."
I'd like to hear your 2 cents.
etc etc
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1031360-potential-protein-needs-and-calculating

Not sure but I believe the numbers listed for mass is LBM and not body mass? That would put my MAXIMUM protein intake that would overload my system at 76g. I'm currently eating more then that usually (~.8g/lb of body mass)

Edit: Looks like bales got here long ago and it is body mass, that clears that up

SideSteel

While in a debate with PU on protein intake he mentioned:
"Bales posted a few studies the other day about lower protein intake... and everyone agreed with it". I asked haybales if he could put up a post for the public to discuss:

"The authors suggested that 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders. "
" As you can see, 1.8g/kg (0.82g/lb) is the point at which additional protein intake ceases to yield any benefits."
I'd like to hear your 2 cents.
etc etc
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1031360-potential-protein-needs-and-calculating

Not sure but I believe the numbers listed for mass is LBM and not body mass? That would put my MAXIMUM protein intake that would overload my system at 76g. I'm currently eating more then that usually (~.8g/lb of body mass)

Edit: Looks like bales got here long ago and it is body mass, that clears that up

Please note my reply in that thread.

I'm not saying that Menno is wrong. He's a very intelligent guy.

But I do believe that Alan and Eric are correct though, as they point out excluded research that may validate going above .82g/lb.

Note the facebook link:
https://www.facebook.com/nobull****bodybuildingverified/posts/549313921749876

It's a lot to sort through, but the convo between Alan and Eric @ Menno is pretty fascinating.

Sarauk2sf

Just to add my 2c on the research that Pu tries to hang his hat on, even though he apparently does not believe peer reviewed studies and does not believe protein is important, so I am not sure why he references it *shrugs*. This review of the studies actually supports a minimum of 1lb/g/lbm as a rule of thumb, give or take some rounding.

The individual studies have a lot of limitations, as admittedly do the ones that indicate a higher protein intake to be more optimal. Also, a number of studies, indicating a higher protein to be preferable have been omitted from this review. However, when you look at the body of evidence, the rule of thumb 1lb/g/lbm is prudent in my opinion for most people who are in a healthy BF% range, relatively active and in a deficit..

The other thing that Pu keeps mentioning ad nausea is that protein should vary based on body fat (when he does indicate a protein recommendation, even though according to him, it does not matter), even though the math in the spreadsheet he shows does not actually adjust for this. In this instance, he is actually correct - the leaner you are the more protein would be recommended (per lb/lbm) and a lesser amount for obese individuals, which is commented on by Helms and Aragon in the discussion of that study that SideSteel linked and is also commented on, but not in particular detail, in their roundtable discussion. What Pu refuses to acknowledge, either due to an issue with reading comprehension, because he choses not to read the thread, or because he is being disingenuous, is that we note in the macro setting thread that protein minimums will be higher if you are very lean and can be lower if you have a higher than average body fat. This is in line with the discussions noted here. However, so as to give people a easily calculable number, all the different variations are not given as, lets be honest, there is not enough data out there to support specific recommendations for all variables - hence the 'easy' rule of thumb that should be sufficient for most people and which should not lead to funky macros of 1g/lb/lbm.

Oh, and for what it is worth, I am not sure who this everyone is, as it does not include me - on the threads I have seen him reference this review, the comments I made on it were that the 0.82g/lb/bw, which is the amount concluded as sufficient, is actually more or less 1g/lb/lbm so what the eff is he arguing about.

Re the specific studies noted - there are quite large limitations that will tend to understate protein requirements. The first of which is that nitrogen balance is used as a proxy for muscle protein synthesis - this understates requirements (I made a thread re that here: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/869015-fundamental-flaws-with-rda-recommendations-for-protein in relation to RDA recommendations). The second of which is the very short nature of most of them. Another issue in one is that it was done on newbies, who actually have a lower protein requirement than more experienced lifters.

Specifically the 0.55g mentioned - this was not done on natty bb'ers and so is a whole 'nother ball game.

EvgeniZyntx

I've read some of the heybales references in the past and had some issues with a few, unfortunately I've lost my notes.

From memory the Hoffman study should not be referenced - the researchers did not find any evidence of increase in LBM at higher protein for one specific program but this was at total calorie intakes that are likely insufficient as recognized by the researchers. While they did see increase in LBM it was not significant but since their study size was limited (n=8) it cannot be concluded that there was an increase , it cannot also be concluded that there was NOT an increase. .

Sarauk2sf

I've read some of the heybales references in the past and had some issues with a few, unfortunately I've lost my notes.

From memory the Hoffman study should not be referenced - the researchers did not find any evidence of increase in LBM at higher protein for one specific program but this was at total calorie intakes that are likely insufficient as recognized by the researchers. While they did see increase in LBM it was not significant but since their study size was limited (n=8) it cannot be concluded that there was an increase , it cannot also be concluded that there was NOT an increase. .

A couple of interesting observations re this study. [For reference, BL = low protein of 1.19g/kg or 0.54g/lb, RL = recommended protein of 1.74g/kg or 0.79g/lb, AL = higher protein of 2.36g/kg or 1.08g/lb ]

While they were not deemed statistically significant the following results are worth mentioning:

- the higher protein group (AL) had an increase in LBM of 1.1kg compare to the RL group of 0.77kg and a loss in the BL group of 0.01kg .

- the higher protein group lost more fat - their average fat loss was 1.1kg, the RL group was 0.09kg and the BL group gained 0.32kg.

The above 2 metrics for the AL group are not bad for a 12 week period - gaining 2.42lb LBM and losing 2.42lb of fat (note, these were not newbies or overweight people). It also indicates that the other groups may actually have been at a surplus as they gained weight! Also interesting is that the AL group's bench and squat 1RM increased more than the other groups.

Now, there are obvious errors inherent in BF% estimating, but at least they used a DXA scan to be as accurate as possible.

EvgeniZyntx

I've read some of the heybales references in the past and had some issues with a few, unfortunately I've lost my notes.

From memory the Hoffman study should not be referenced - the researchers did not find any evidence of increase in LBM at higher protein for one specific program but this was at total calorie intakes that are likely insufficient as recognized by the researchers. While they did see increase in LBM it was not significant but since their study size was limited (n=8) it cannot be concluded that there was an increase , it cannot also be concluded that there was NOT an increase. .

A couple of interesting observations re this study. [For reference, BL = low protein of 1.19g/kg or 0.54g/lb, RL = recommended protein of 1.74g/kg or 0.79g/lb, AL = higher protein of 2.36g/kg or 1.08g/lb ]

While they were not deemed statistically significant the following results are worth mentioning:

- the higher protein group (AL) had an increase in LBM of 1.1kg compare to the RL group of 0.77kg and a loss in the BL group of 0.01kg .

- the higher protein group lost more fat - their average fat loss was 1.1kg, the RL group was 0.09kg and the BL group gained 0.32kg.

The above 2 metrics for the AL group are not bad for a 12 week period - gaining 2.42lb LBM and losing 2.42lb of fat (note, these were not newbies or overweight people). It also indicates that the other groups may actually have been at a surplus as they gained weight! Also interesting is that the AL group's bench and squat 1RM increased more than the other groups.

Now, there are obvious errors inherent in BF% estimating, but at least they used a DXA scan to be as accurate as possible.

Excellent read - this is what I meant. Even though not significant an increase was observed. Using that study to try to demonstrate that higher protein does not show a change is incorrect. That hypothesis wasn't proven.

EvgeniZyntx

Summary article on protein intake and carbs - genton et al. 2010
http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/0261-5614/PIIS0261561410000312.pdf

BrownEyeAngel

Hello I have a question? I am being told daily that I should be drinking protein shakes everyday! Getting annoyed... I am on my 4th week of Insanity and I understand that is a hard program and all but do I have to drink Protein?

SideSteel

Hello I have a question? I am being told daily that I should be drinking protein shakes everyday! Getting annoyed... I am on my 4th week of Insanity and I understand that is a hard program and all but do I have to drink Protein?

You should ideally have your protein target set at a reasonable level for your goals. Whether or not you drink protein shakes to reach that protein target isn't important.

Example:

Suppose I need 100g protein per day.

I can get that with a couple of pieces of chicken, a steak, and some fish.
I can get that with greek yogurt, two scoops of whey, and some pork chops.

What matters most is that you're able to hit that target (and that you have a reasonable target to begin with). There's nothing magical about whey protein, although it is generally a high quality source.

retirehappy

Time for a bump.