Check out my snatch? Olympic lifting form check

Awkward30

I don't know if this will work, don't have a computer right now, so I'm linking to Dropbox from my phone. Also I had to prop my phone up to make these... So they suck a little.

Clean: side then front
https://www.dropbox.com/s/my8q84vy7uuxjl1/2012-12-21 11.49.57.mov
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l47kmye2pwer98d/2012-12-21 11.55.24.mov
Snatch: side then front
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ppqd4p16mv7fao1/2012-12-21 12.03.44.mov
https://www.dropbox.com/s/h94hw3mi6rh6u2i/2012-12-21 12.00.00.mov

I am having trouble with heavier weights for both and I think it's more because of technique than raw strength... Help, please!?

Capt_Apollo

first off, i want to say way to go!! i know a lot of people that won't do olympic lifts like that unless the gym is deserted.

i feel that you are not getting low enough on the clean or the snatch. as you bring the bar up, you should be dropping into a full squat. you're trying to muscle up the bar.

HelloDan

You made me join this group, just so I could reply!

First my (sort of) silly cooments:
1) No bumpers?
2) You look around to make sure noone is watching before you clean - don't worry about everyone else, weightlifting is not for the self conscious.

I haven't looked at the snatch yet, so this is just from the clean.

I would just do a load of work from the high hang first, to learn where the power comes. From the floor can come later.
I would also go heavier, as you're getting away with muscling it up.

I'm in the gym tomorrow (just like any other day) so I will try make a video to show you.

Awkward30

It's not self conscious, it's that I don't want to hit someone. I took a bar to the face once and so I try to be conscious of other people.

Before this I was doing burpees in the weight area...and after I was doing sprints in front of the racket ball courts... So I don't care if I look like an idiot

Thanks to both of you.

You're definitely right that I'm muscling the bar up, Apollo, whenever I squat more, I think it's kind of contrived... Like a clean + squat. Lol

Dan, I can go up like 5 or 10 lb, but I start failing at 75#. By fail, I mean I high pull and get scared. Would failure be informative? Everyone keeps telling me "just get under the bar" and I guess that means I should be squatting to drop under the bar and pop my elbows under earlier?

Capt_Apollo

Everyone keeps telling me "just get under the bar" and I guess that means I should be squatting to drop under the bar and pop my elbows under earlier?

this is what you should do. try it from just the hanging position. don't be afraid to jump off your toes a little bit to get the proper momentum.

when i warm up for this lift, i use the unweighted bar, and i have it at the hanging position. i do kinda like a jump up shrug for about three sets of ten.

HelloDan

Ultimately you want to squat under the bar, but I wouldn't even worry about that now. Get the pull sorted, and I think you'll find that the rest will fit into place much easier. Mainly because in my opinion, by muscling the bar up, you have no opportunity to get underneath it. If you get a decent pull, the bar will be travelling up under its own steam, giving you time to actually get underneath it.

I'll make a video of all this though, as it's probably much easier to take in visually, than in words.

Awkward30

Thanks again, Apollo and Dan

Sounds like I should up the weight and practice high pulls, then hang cleans, then putting it all together?

ETA: I look forward to your vid Dan!

ironanimal

Bump to follow. I'm self-teaching Clean and Jerk at the moment so all tips are of interest.

sunsnstatheart

I snicker like 10 year old every time I read the name of this thread. Thanks for that!

Oh and great going on the olympic lifts! Seriously - that's bold stuff! I self taught clean and jerks but I'm not touching the snatch . . .

HelloDan

ARGGH! I wrote loads, and then went to another page and lost it, so here goes again!

I took a couple of videos today, but I want to focus on the first one, from the high hang, and then move on after this is all sorted.


First a couple of points to note.
The weight is about 40% of my max, I used this so I could got slow enough that hopefully you can see the movement, but It does also mean it's not as smooth as a heavier weight, and also the catch is not pretty as it's very high, and I'm trying to get my head out of the way to avoid smashing my jaw! I'm a bit more used to catching in at least a partially squatted position.
Also my extension is not as full\explosive as a heavy weight, if it was the weight would smack me in the neck, I've done this before, and it's not fun, at least for me, you guys would probably enjoy watching me suffer!

I have also concentrated on the clean for now, mainly because the catch is much easier for a beginner, and the snatch pull is actually a bit easier, so if you can get the clean pull, you'll find snatch pulls easy, so you can then focus on the snatch catch which is the hard bit. However thats getting ahead of ourselves, as we want to master this first.

Ok, so onto the video.
In the video I do 2 movements.
The first is just a very slow movement of what powers the bar. Notice my hips, knees and ankles extend, and then fractionally after my shoulders shrug. This is what moves the weight, theres no upper body or arm muscling going on. One point to be aware, in the actual clean my weight will be a little further back in this extended position, however when staying there for a longer time, especially using a light weight, I can't do this as I would fall backwards.

In the second bit, I do exactly the same, just a little faster, this causes the bar to fly up, in fact if you're new to cleans you may be suprised to see how high the bar has gone from such a small movement! Notice how close it is to me, close enough to brush my t shirt. Also note the catch, whilst not pretty at all, you can still see the bar is not being gripped by me, and sits on my shoulders, it is gripped in my hands and my wrists are taking no strain. If I was going to jerk, I would regrip the bar as it pops up off my shoulders on the recovery.

http://youtu.be/M2FAFrZrdrY

Ok, so I think I covered the major points, but I might have missed something that I first wrote, so please let me know what makes sense, what doesn't and anything else that you might want to ask. Once it's clear I will move on to the next example I wanted to show.

Awkward30

Dan, I feel like a stray that you've adopted! Lol thanks a ton, you go above and beyond!

My goodness, if that's the slow version... I have bruises all over my clavicle from bad cleans.

So the movement is nothing like a high pull? You're supposed to explosive extend. Your body and the bar just kind of flies up? I feel like that doesn't happen for me. I'll be going to practice in about an hour, so I'll let you know if trying to be more like you makes the bar fly up. I figure I should try to incorporate this before I ask questions.

Thanks, Dan!

HelloDan

Pretty much, basically the extension of the body will pull the arms up, but the arms are passive like rope (once you get beyond beginner stage, this will change, but for beginner purposes, this holds true), rather than actively trying to lift the bar. Eventually you hit the top of the extension, and your body stops, and starts moving the opposite direction to get under the bar, which is still travelling upwards (again for a beginner with a light clean this is true, later on it may not be).

The easy way to visualise the above; imagine a yo-yo thats fully unwound, or a ball on a string. Yank the top of the string, the yo-yo\ball flies up, and your hand holding the string can be under it, before the yo-yo\ball has started falling. The yo-yo\ball is the bar, the string is your arms, the hand doing the yanking is your body, by extending the hips\legs as long as you don't fold at the core, the effect will be the same.


If you look at the arm position when catching, by having the elbows up and catching on the shoulder, your deltoids are raised, so the bar lands on 'meat ' rather than 'bone'.

Hope that helps your practice.

Awkward30

So if my bar is only flying a few inches, how do I get more power? More *kitten* squeezing? Lol

HelloDan

So if my bar is only flying a few inches, how do I get more power? More *kitten* squeezing? Lol

Bigger *kitten*!

HelloDan

More seriously, how heavy was the bar, and to put it in perspective, how much do you weigh, and how much can you squat?

Ultimately, when I'm hitting a max effort, the bar actually won't get above my navel, I'll just have to get under it very quickly, but that speed takes time to develop, and at this stage you want to be pulling it higher like a power clean.

Was the limiting factor the weight of the bar just being too heavy, or was there another reason for the lack of height?

HelloDan

Just bumping, as the video has had a few views, so I wondered if it makes sense, and if it's helping any of you guys?

If it is, I'll go into some of the quirks of working towards lifting off the floor and why it is not as simple as a deadlift.

Awkward30

Very helpful, but I'm lame and inconsistent at the gym this week because I'm out of town. May not make it today, and yesterday was just a bad lifting day, so I need a mulligan. The most I've ever back squatted is 205 lb, I've only front squatted 145 lb though, and that seems more relevant. Weight is currently around 150 lb, and now you officially know me a little too well... Oh and because it makes me feel like a boss, I'd also like to mention I hit a 245 lb deadlift recently!

I don't know if the bar wasn't lifting because I was doing it wrong, or because it was relatively heavy, but I could feel that I was getting a few inches rise and then pulling the bar the rest of the way up. I was doing them at 65-75 lb, with 65 being I can pretty much do it wrong and get the bar up and 75 being I can only get it sometimes lol and should the pull look like a high pull at all or not? I mean I feel like I can generate more power with a high pull type action... But it doesn't look like you have to do that to get the power!?

HelloDan

Well based on your front squat, I'd think you should be able to fairly easily clean 100lb if you get it right, and possibly up to 120lb. That's rough, as I work in kg, so I did a rough conversion in my head, thought about it and then did the same back to lbs!

As it's a power clean, the top half of the movement will look like a high pull, but if you can just slowly lift the bar through that range, or hold it there, things are not right. If the bar is in a high pull position, because the momentum has taken it there, that's different.

image deleted per user's request

Have a look at the still from the video above, that's about as high as I have actually been exerting a big force on the bar, from this point on in the video the bar continues to rise upwards because of the momentum it has from the relatively vicious pull. Again think back to the unwound yo-yo, you only need to give a short sharp tug on the string, you don't try pull the string all the way to the height you want the yo-yo to fly up to. I mean you could do it that way, but I bet the short sharp tug on the string gets the yo-yo there faster.

Also look at the insert, that's my hands as the bar is about it's highest point, and I'm rotating my elbows underneath it for the catch, as you can see whatever is supporting the bar at that point, it's certainly not my hands and arms!

Shame we don't go to the same gym, as I'm sure you'd be nailing them within the hour, but hopefully progress is being made.

Let me know if there are more questions.

Awkward30

1) oly lifting stills are so badass. You look so cool!
2) a bajillion thanks, you've been infinitely helpful! I dot think I'll have a chance to practice again until wed or thurs but ill let you know how it goes
3) where are you from? I notice you seem to post super early, and do things in kg... I made sure to put lb above so you didn't think I was a badass lol

HelloDan

1) oly lifting stills are so badass. You look so cool!
2) a bajillion thanks, you've been infinitely helpful! I dot think I'll have a chance to practice again until wed or thurs but ill let you know how it goes
3) where are you from? I notice you seem to post super early, and do things in kg... I made sure to put lb above so you didn't think I was a badass lol

1) It's the leggings and white tape on the thumb that does it!

2)Even weirdos like me won't be hitting the gym tomorrow or the day after, enjoy Christmas, take a break and only think about lifting 50% of the time, instead of 100% of the time!

3) I'm form just outside London, in England, I post super early even by UK time, my normal training sessions are 6am-8am. I can deal with lbs or kg generally, but weightlifting is measured in kilos!

I'm definitely not a badass though, if you ever want to be humbled, come along to my gym. This morning when I was training, the guy next to me was the captain of the England rugby team, that really is badass!

Awkward30

One month later:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l3sm7yt7mqlr6qg/2013-01-31 20.27.52.mov at 75 lb. The people watching said I was still too light and the bar was bouncing a bunch, so I went up to 95 lb

https://www.dropbox.com/s/eqdpm3ostvrfjee/2013-01-31 20.34.33.mov literally my first reps ever at that weight.

Basically, I still don't think it's great, but I don't really know what to fix. And I also don't know if side view is the most helpful, but my videographer said that was the best way to see hip extension...

Anyways, any input would be greatly appreciated!

sam308lbs

this is very informative.Bump to follow

HelloDan

Ok, I already posted some of this on your profile, but I think the key here is the start position. I think get that right, and the rest will be fine. I don't think it is extension at all, I mean take a look at this, and especially considering the sub-optimal start position, its really not too shabby.



If you look at your start position, your weight is a little forward on your feet, your shoulders are behind the bar, your knees are quite flexed and your hips although still flexed, are way more extended than they should be. From this position, unless you have odd anatomy or abnormally tight muslces, your glutes and hamstrings won't be feeling at all stretched or under tension.

So, here's the before, with lines added to emphasise my point:


To improve this position, you want you weight slightly further back on your feet, but you might not need to do this conciously, it will most likely happen with the other changes. You want your shoulders over, or slightly in front of the bar, to do this, your knees will have to be extended a lot more, and your hips flexed more. By getting into this position, you should feel tension\a slight stretch in your hamstrings, whilst not massively useful from the hang, this is good, because in the full lift from the floor, you will move through this position rather than be static, and the stretch will then work like an elastic band recoiling, adding more force to the lift.

So here is roughly what it should look like:


To visualise it better, check out Sibel Simsek (She's 63kg, so about 140lb which is pretty similar) here, now this is a snatch, so the position is slightly different as the wider grip makes the arms effectively shorter, but the principle is the same, just your back will be slightly less horizontal in each position, due to the closer grip of the clean.



Two points to really notice, are how close the bar stays to her legs the whole time, and how the thighs, back and arms from a triangle that gets smaller and smaller until the bar is at the hips. If the triangle turns into any other shape, something is wrong, and if the triangle turns into a 4 sided shape, with an imaginary line between the bar and the hips, you will end up with a bruise like I did yesterday!

Hopefully this helps, but as always feel free to ask anything to clarify.

HelloDan

BTW, my anatomical drawing is not what I am known for, so don't get too hung up on the angles and proportions of my blues stick-Award30, the arm length and angle is ridiculous and exaggerated, but the point still stands, Sibel shows the concept much better!

Awkward30

Thanks again Dan! That helps a lot. So I'm starting it more like a squat and need to start it more like a dead.. Basically? I'll try fixing the start position this week.

HelloDan

Well more like a Romanian deadlift, most people deadlift conventionally from the floor, which instantly kills the lift, hence the reason I think learning from the high hang down is best for beginners.

Awkward30

Hmm. So when you pull from the floor, how does that work? Or should I still not pull from the floor?

Hendrix7

One month later:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l3sm7yt7mqlr6qg/2013-01-31 20.27.52.mov at 75 lb. The people watching said I was still too light and the bar was bouncing a bunch, so I went up to 95 lb

I would seriously consider investing in some o-lifting shoes.

See how your ankle comes off the ground at 0.11.

Plus they are just awesome to squat in.

HelloDan

Hmm. So when you pull from the floor, how does that work? Or should I still not pull from the floor?

Get the low hang nailed first.

I know the full lift is much cooler, but if the second part of the lift isn't natural, adding in another part that feels unnatural and trying to smoothly transition it into a second move that feels unnatural is not a recipe for success!

HelloDan

I would seriously consider investing in some o-lifting shoes.

See how your ankle comes off the ground at 0.11.

Plus they are just awesome to squat in.

Whilst I would always recommend using weightlifting shoes (and I even way back suggested AWard30 trade a certain Christmas present for some), the heel lift at 0:11 is caused by movement pattern, so would most likely occur whatever footwear is worn.

Awkward30

Is heel lift bad? I thought it was good so long as you weren't jumping.

And sorry, I didn't check on my thread because I'm a bad person.

I have been considering getting new shoes, but I'm currently crossfitting for most of my workouts, so I was thinking about something that has enough support for box jumps but not much heel to toe drop because that makes squats bad.

Think oly shoes would work for that or would it be a crime against awesome shoes to wear them for normal crossfit use?