Eat more, eat less, workout more, workout less?

rmk20togo

Hey, I just found this group and am interested to get opinions. I feel like I've tried everything everyone has recommended with zero success. Please just don't take away my lattes

I've even taken months worth of dairy to a nutritionist and a trainer and was told "You're doing everything right. I don't know why you aren't losing weight."....ugh. Thyroid tested and is fine.

I lost 75# 12 years ago with WW and kept it off. One year ago decided to lose 10# more and focus on body recomp so I joined MFP and started logging.

1) What's your current intake of calories, on average? 1900-2000.

2) What's your current average intake of protein, carbs, and fats, in grams? 100-125p/60-70f/200c

3) Do you use a food scale and measure everything? Yes

4) Do you track all of your intake, daily? (Everything?) 80-90% I took June off from logging and weighing because it was making me .

5) Do you take cheat days or days off? Sometimes don't log on Sundays, but don't gorge. I eat fast food on Saturday, but fit it into my calories.

6) How much weight have you lost so far? None since joining MFP - slowly gaining.

7) What is your activity like, both exercise and non-exercise? (big difference between a construction worker and a desk job) and did you change that activity withing the last couple of months. If so, what changed.
Desk job
Weight lifting 3x/week
High intensity cardio 2hrs/week (average burn 650 cal/hour)
Kickboxing 2 hrs/week (average burn 450 cal/hr
Occasional 4-6 miles run 1x/week
I use a HRM. I've confirmed stats are correct and have activity level set to elite so it gives me the lowers burn numbers.

This past month I've been recovering from plantars fasciitis and tennis elbow so the lifting and boxing were on hold for 4 weeks. Otherwise, I've had the same cardio routine for years and added heavy lifting in October 2012. Don't always log workouts.

8) How long have you eaten at your previous amount and what happened in that time frame? 8'ish months, gained.

9) What's your height, current weight and if you know it, bodyfat%? 52 year old female, 5.6", 176, 31-32 bodyfat (depending on measuring tool - hydrostatic test =31, Amron=33), Oxygen tested RMR 1613

10) If you're stalled, for how long and is it a complete stall (zero change in weight)? Not stalled, gaining for weeks/months
Monthly weight/calories averages:
March 164.1/1931
April 165.2/1977
May 165.5/1995
June (took logging/scale break)
July 168.2/2094
Aug 172.4/2012
Sept 172.1/1905
Oct 172.2/1918
Nov 173.1/2094
Dec 173.8/1800

heybales

Desk job
Weight lifting 3x/week
High intensity cardio 2hrs/week (average burn 650 cal/hour)
Kickboxing 2 hrs/week (average burn 450 cal/hr
Occasional 4-6 miles run 1x/week
I use a HRM. I've confirmed stats are correct and have activity level set to elite so it gives me the lowers burn numbers.

9) What's your height, current weight and if you know it, bodyfat%? 52 year old female, 5.6", 176, 31-32 bodyfat (depending on measuring tool - hydrostatic test =31, Amron=33), Oxygen tested RMR 1613

So interesting sidepoint on that RMR test.
Outside medical reasons which you said aren't there, the relationship between BMR/RMR based on LBM is very tight bell curve, pretty accurate.

Your RMR is about 100 less than your LBM would indicate it might be. Suppressed or naturally lower? Who knows.

Does High Intensity Cardio mean HIIT?
Why so much stressful on the body HIIT? Even for athletes using HIIT and intervals in general, shouldn't be more than 20% of their cardio time.
And you have a lot of anaerobic training in there, kick boxing, lifting, probably HIIT.

What make/model of HRM? If it doesn't have VO2max stat, I can pretty much guarantee it is underestimating your valid calorie burns for aerobic workouts, meaning it's not valid of course for anaerobic stuff, like HIIT and lifting and kickboxing if you could even wear it then, those are more likely inflated.
Setting to elite though sounds like one that does, in which case have you done the VO2max test in the morning after a rest day, if you have a rest day?
Have you watched your restingHR for several days a week, for some months, and seen improvement?

Because with a 1550 BMR, 1900-2000 when you workout at that level doesn't sound like enough, especially when those workouts are so anaerobic in nature and frequent.

Sarauk2sf

First of all, there is absolutely no way I would take away your lattes and if anyone tries to, send them my way



Will get back to you regarding suggestions.

Sarauk2sf

Quick question: were you doing the workouts before you starting dieting? If so, how long were you doing similar workouts for? Also, what type of lifting routine are you doing?

rmk20togo

@Haybales, my circuit style workouts are honestly different every single time. Today, for example was:
2 laps around the track running
1 lap sides shuffle
1 lap walking lunges
4 laps running
4 sets running stairs (2 flights)
20 squat and throw with 12# medicine ball
20 burpees
2 lengths of gym walking lunges with 15# dumbbells
20 deadlifts 30# (I'm just now building my weight back up after tendonitis)
20 overhead press with 15# dumbbells (See above)
40 bycicles
Repeat for two full rounds
6 sets of 20 second pony runs with 10 second rest
Abs

I do all the workouts because I LOVE them all and don't want to give up anything. I tried to use your spreadsheet, but the math overwhelmed me and I gave up. I'm pretty much eating the "mostly cardio" recommendation, I think.

I use a Polar F11 and I have all the stats I can set correct. I have not done a VO2Max test, buy my resting HR per testing is 55-60

@Sara, your latte comment made us instant friends! I've been working for years, long I decided to lose 10# and gained 10# trying. :sad: I lost the first 75# through diet alone and kept it off by basically dieting for 12 years but without logging. For the weights I use a Cathe Friedrich STS series. Bases all lifting on 1 rep max and usually uses 80-90 of 1rm. It's a 12 week series, but I had to stop in the 10th week because of the elbow. I'm starting back next week.

heybales

I use a Polar F11 and I have all the stats I can set correct. I have not done a VO2Max test, buy my resting HR per testing is 55-60

As fit as you are, the HRM is underestimating calorie burn on your aerobic efforts then. I thought that HRM had a self-test feature, I guess not.

rmk20togo

As fit as you are, the HRM is underestimating calorie burn on your aerobic efforts then. I thought that HRM had a self-test feature, I guess not.

It has a fit test, which just tests resting HR. I came straight to work from the gym today so I have it in my car. I'll get it out at lunch and really do so research. I'm sure it does things I don't even know about.

SideSteel

Getting caught up on this. One of us will post today with a recommendation.

SideSteel

I think in this particular case you are simply just eating too much and this is causing weight gain. I absolutely would not increase calories, I think this would be a big mistake in your case.

Sara and I chatted this over thoroughly and for the next month I think you should give this a shot and see what happens:

Set your cal intake to 1600/day. I'd take most of this from CHO which would leave you at the following:

1600kcal
120p
60f
145c

Keep your cheat day but log everything including your cheat day. This also includes all condiments, any sources of calories. It's important so that we can get a better handle on your actual intake over the course of weeks.

Monitor how you feel, gym performance, and obviously progress on weight loss/etc.

Keep us posted either here or via PM if you'd like.


EDIT: This is a big drop in intake. My belief is that you are eating in a surplus right now and that's the rationale for it. Monitor how you feel very closely. I would expect some hunger, which is fine. But I would also expect that if you properly nourish yourself you should still be able to get through your workouts and not feel like you're going to drop dead. If you do feel that way, PM me immediately.

rmk20togo

I think in this particular case you are simply just eating too much and this is causing weight gain. I absolutely would not increase calories, I think this would be a big mistake in your case.

Sara and I chatted this over thoroughly and for the next month I think you should give this a shot and see what happens:

Set your cal intake to 1600/day. I'd take most of this from CHO which would leave you at the following:

1600kcal
120p
60f
145c

Keep your cheat day but log everything including your cheat day. This also includes all condiments, any sources of calories. It's important so that we can get a better handle on your actual intake over the course of weeks.

Monitor how you feel, gym performance, and obviously progress on weight loss/etc.

Keep us posted either here or via PM if you'd like.


EDIT: This is a big drop in intake. My belief is that you are eating in a surplus right now and that's the rationale for it. Monitor how you feel very closely. I would expect some hunger, which is fine. But I would also expect that if you properly nourish yourself you should still be able to get through your workouts and not feel like you're going to drop dead. If you do feel that way, PM me immediately.

Thanks for taking the time to help out! I think I'm eating too much too, though I'd surely love to be one of those girls who eat 2000+ and still lose. :drinker:

I'm glad you didn't tell me to cut back on the exercise! It's better than hormones for an old chick.

I'll drop the cals, focus on better logging, IIFYM eating and monitoring my workout performance.

Is the 1600 a static number - for workout days and my rest days (I usually only take 1)?

SideSteel

I think in this particular case you are simply just eating too much and this is causing weight gain. I absolutely would not increase calories, I think this would be a big mistake in your case.

Sara and I chatted this over thoroughly and for the next month I think you should give this a shot and see what happens:

Set your cal intake to 1600/day. I'd take most of this from CHO which would leave you at the following:

1600kcal
120p
60f
145c

Keep your cheat day but log everything including your cheat day. This also includes all condiments, any sources of calories. It's important so that we can get a better handle on your actual intake over the course of weeks.

Monitor how you feel, gym performance, and obviously progress on weight loss/etc.

Keep us posted either here or via PM if you'd like.


EDIT: This is a big drop in intake. My belief is that you are eating in a surplus right now and that's the rationale for it. Monitor how you feel very closely. I would expect some hunger, which is fine. But I would also expect that if you properly nourish yourself you should still be able to get through your workouts and not feel like you're going to drop dead. If you do feel that way, PM me immediately.

Thanks for taking the time to help out! I think I'm eating too much too, though I'd surely love to be one of those girls who eat 2000+ and still lose. :drinker:

I'm glad you didn't tell me to cut back on the exercise! It's better than hormones for an old chick.

I'll drop the cals, focus on better logging, IIFYM eating and monitoring my workout performance.

Is the 1600 a static number - for workout days and my rest days (I usually only take 1)?

Yes, that's a static number but you can keep your cheat day, just track it and depending on results + magnitude of the cheat (if it's like 2500-3k we have a problem) we may need to cut that out later.

rmk20togo

Yes, that's a static number but you can keep your cheat day, just track it and depending on results + magnitude of the cheat (if it's like 2500-3k we have a problem) we may need to cut that out later.

By cheat day, I mean I eat one fast food meal. Usually come in around 2000-2200k on cheat day. I'm feeling hopeful for the first time in a while! I'll report back and PM if I start sucking wind during my workouts.

Sarauk2sf

I am really glad you are feeling optimistic, and as SideSteel says, check back with us.

With regard to age, it is unfortunately that our BMR and our TDEEs go down as we get older. There are a couple of reasons for this. The main ones being:

- as you get older you are just less active normally. However, based on your activity levels, that does not appear to be the case with you and it is great that you love your workouts

- as we get older, we lose muscle mass (sarcopenia). This is one of the reasons I am very much an advocate of strength training at any age - to mitigate this loss.

rmk20togo

@Sara, I take advanced classes (high impact, heavy weights) at my gym so, needless to say, I'm 20-30 years older than everyone else. It makes me so happy to see you people, especially young women, taking charge of their health. I didn't start until 40, but better late than never. I'll fight sarcopenia with my last breath.

@sidesteel, your comment about condiments really hit home with me. I've logged, tracked, etc. food for the better part of 12 years and I realize I've gotten lazy or tired, not sure which. I looked up a few condiments, the vanilla pump I get in my unsweet tea, etc. and was amazed how many calories I really wasn't counting.

Thanks again guys!

Sarauk2sf

You are far more active than me and I bet you get through those workouts better than some of the peeps that are 20 - 30 years younger.

One other reason that I am a big believer in doing resistance training, and I am not necessarily talking about really heavy arsed lifting even though that is what I like to do, is it's benefit for bone density - another thing we have to keep an eye on as we get older.

In my anecdotal sample of n=1, my dexa scan I had done last year showed an off the charts good bone density, even for someone 20 years younger than me. Is it due to genetics, lifting or the copious amount of milk I drink? Who knows, but bet all three of them helped (which I am sure you will like hearing as you are a latte freak like me).

rmk20togo

Update: Only 5 days in following y'alls advice on calories and macros and I'm down 2.2# (even with my regular cheat 2k day). I'm well aware this is water, etc. and isn't all fat or even mostly fat, but at least it's motivating. I would have expected a gain since I kicked the carbs up. Honestly, I think they key was the kick in the butt about careful logging. I was logging 1900-2000 a day, but now I'm wondering if I was actually eating 2000-2200 a day. At 1600 I'm pretty hungry most of the day, but that will subside. So far, I can't see a real difference in my workouts, but this week is not typical. Both of my trainers decided to try to kill me and nearly succeeded. Still on the mend from golfers elbow so no really heavy lifting yet. I can't wait to see those muscles start to emerge from under the fat.

I'll keep tabs on the scale and inches. If losses continue at this rate, I'll get y'all to reevaluate. I'd rather be fluffy than sacrifice muscle. :noway: :noway:

Sara and SideSteel, thanks again for all you do and for the ab pics for inspiration!!!

Haybales, I'm still working on the spreadsheet. I'm so mathematically challenged it's shameful (not to mention my technology challenges). I wish I could share the spreadsheet with you so you could check my numbers.

SideSteel

Update: Only 5 days in following y'alls advice on calories and macros and I'm down 2.2# (even with my regular cheat 2k day). I'm well aware this is water, etc. and isn't all fat or even mostly fat, but at least it's motivating. I would have expected a gain since I kicked the carbs up. Honestly, I think they key was the kick in the butt about careful logging. I was logging 1900-2000 a day, but now I'm wondering if I was actually eating 2000-2200 a day. At 1600 I'm pretty hungry most of the day, but that will subside. So far, I can't see a real difference in my workouts, but this week is not typical. Both of my trainers decided to try to kill me and nearly succeeded. Still on the mend from golfers elbow so no really heavy lifting yet. I can't wait to see those muscles start to emerge from under the fat.

I'll keep tabs on the scale and inches. If losses continue at this rate, I'll get y'all to reevaluate. I'd rather be fluffy than sacrifice muscle. :noway: :noway:

Sara and SideSteel, thanks again for all you do and for the ab pics for inspiration!!!

Haybales, I'm still working on the spreadsheet. I'm so mathematically challenged it's shameful (not to mention my technology challenges). I wish I could share the spreadsheet with you so you could check my numbers.

Thanks for the feedback. I boldfaced part of the above as it very much reinforces a post I just made, and your situation with logging is very normal. People just aren't aware of it most of the time.

psuLemon

Another thing to consider that many do not thing of is food intolerance. If cutting calories to 1600 calories doesn't work for a long period of time, I would consider removing certain food groups from your diet for up to a month and maintain calories. This is how my wife found out she was gluten intolerant (not allergic or having celiacs). Withing a week of removing gluten from her diet, she was able to lose weight. I, also, did this experiment with another MFP buddy and he lost 10 lbs in two weeks. In fact, he has a similar RMR (his was about 1650) and was doing insanity. So he ate 2000-2200 calories and removed gluten and it worked. Unfortunately, it can be very difficult to test for a food intolerance. A food intolerance can almost be complete undetectable, even through testing. Not necessary, but another viable option if you don't see much weight loss.


On a side note, i do find it weird that your RMR is over 1600 and with all that exercise, that you can't lose at 2000 unless you were under estimating calories.

rmk20togo

On a side note, i do find it weird that your RMR is over 1600 and with all that exercise, that you can't lose at 2000 unless you were under estimating calories.

I know, right!?!?! Last week I burned (per HRM) 3400 calories in workouts. I have all settings on HRM set to give me the lowest burn numbers (activity level, etc.) and that's without my regular 3x/wk weight lifting. Of course the RMR is only as reliable as the tech that tested it. Also, aside from a 1-2 hour workout a day, showering, dressing, cooking, and light housekeeping, I literally sit on my duff in front of a computer for 7-8 hours.

I really want to be one of those people who can eat 2000+ and still lose. :explode:

psuLemon

On a side note, i do find it weird that your RMR is over 1600 and with all that exercise, that you can't lose at 2000 unless you were under estimating calories.

I know, right!?!?! Last week I burned (per HRM) 3400 calories in workouts. I have all settings on HRM set to give me the lowest burn numbers (activity level, etc.) and that's without my regular 3x/wk weight lifting. Of course the RMR is only as reliable as the tech that tested it. Also, aside from a 1-2 hour workout a day, showering, dressing, cooking, and light housekeeping, I literally sit on my duff in front of a computer for 7-8 hours.

I really want to be one of those people who can eat 2000+ and still lose. :explode:

It may be possible. Like i said, if you have an undiagnosed intolerance like my wife did, then it could prevent weight loss regardless of the amount of calories.

Sarauk2sf

Another thing to consider that many do not thing of is food intolerance. If cutting calories to 1600 calories doesn't work for a long period of time, I would consider removing certain food groups from your diet for up to a month and maintain calories. This is how my wife found out she was gluten intolerant (not allergic or having celiacs). Withing a week of removing gluten from her diet, she was able to lose weight. I, also, did this experiment with another MFP buddy and he lost 10 lbs in two weeks. In fact, he has a similar RMR (his was about 1650) and was doing insanity. So he ate 2000-2200 calories and removed gluten and it worked. Unfortunately, it can be very difficult to test for a food intolerance. A food intolerance can almost be complete undetectable, even through testing. Not necessary, but another viable option if you don't see much weight loss.


On a side note, i do find it weird that your RMR is over 1600 and with all that exercise, that you can't lose at 2000 unless you were under estimating calories.

The bolded part is usually the culprit, as the OP has indicated may well be the issue.

heybales

I know, right!?!?! Last week I burned (per HRM) 3400 calories in workouts. I have all settings on HRM set to give me the lowest burn numbers (activity level, etc.) and that's without my regular 3x/wk weight lifting.

Actually, if by Activity Level you mean your rating of how often you exercise, best to be accurate, else why use it?

Change in that level probably represents only 50 calories though, the real VO2max stat will have bigger bearing, along with HRmax.

And you don't have to me mathematical to use the spreadsheet. You just have to enter about 6 stats concerning yourself, probably 5 of which you have memorized, and then BF% if you want to use it. You don't do any math.
And then the time spent in 3 different levels of exercise weekly. Which you probably have memorized too.

Sarauk2sf

Update: Only 5 days in following y'alls advice on calories and macros and I'm down 2.2# (even with my regular cheat 2k day). I'm well aware this is water, etc. and isn't all fat or even mostly fat, but at least it's motivating. I would have expected a gain since I kicked the carbs up. Honestly, I think they key was the kick in the butt about careful logging. I was logging 1900-2000 a day, but now I'm wondering if I was actually eating 2000-2200 a day. At 1600 I'm pretty hungry most of the day, but that will subside. So far, I can't see a real difference in my workouts, but this week is not typical. Both of my trainers decided to try to kill me and nearly succeeded. Still on the mend from golfers elbow so no really heavy lifting yet. I can't wait to see those muscles start to emerge from under the fat.

I'll keep tabs on the scale and inches. If losses continue at this rate, I'll get y'all to reevaluate. I'd rather be fluffy than sacrifice muscle. :noway: :noway:

Sara and SideSteel, thanks again for all you do and for the ab pics for inspiration!!!

Haybales, I'm still working on the spreadsheet. I'm so mathematically challenged it's shameful (not to mention my technology challenges). I wish I could share the spreadsheet with you so you could check my numbers.

Thank you for the update. Hang in there...your appetite should even out a bit. As you are eating at a static number, your burns during your workouts are not as relevant as if you were eating exercise calories back. As long as you are pretty consistent with your workouts, the static number works pretty well and allows you to look back after a few weeks and tweak accordingly.

rmk20togo

I want to give a 30 day update. I've followed the advice given, with a minor calorie and macro adjustment to help fuel my workouts and....... Drum roll please

- 4.8#
-2.5%BF
-7.3"

And I even kept my lattes and cheat meal/day!

The real turning point for me was this:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/872212-you-re-probably-eating-more-than-you-think

Thanks SS and Sara for helping me bust through a plateau that had been around so long I was ready throw in the towel and

SideSteel

I want to give a 30 day update. I've followed the advice given, with a minor calorie and macro adjustment to help fuel my workouts and....... Drum roll please

- 4.8#
-2.5%BF
-7.3"

And I even kept my lattes and cheat meal/day!

The real turning point for me was this:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/872212-you-re-probably-eating-more-than-you-think

Thanks SS and Sara for helping me bust through a plateau that had been around so long I was ready throw in the towel and

Excellent news! Congrats.

Sarauk2sf

I want to give a 30 day update. I've followed the advice given, with a minor calorie and macro adjustment to help fuel my workouts and....... Drum roll please

- 4.8#
-2.5%BF
-7.3"

And I even kept my lattes and cheat meal/day!

The real turning point for me was this:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/872212-you-re-probably-eating-more-than-you-think

Thanks SS and Sara for helping me bust through a plateau that had been around so long I was ready throw in the towel and

That is excellent. Well done, I am really happy for you.