Would a damaged metabolism show up on an RMR test?

amylahminute

Hello, all.

I had my RMR tested today for free at my company gym using New Leaf equipment.

At 5'3"/147 lbs/31%BF, the New Leaf machine reported my RMR at 1652. My question is: "Could this number have been inaccurate (inflated) if my metabolism is depressed?" or another way of asking the question would be, "Would my RMR - as reported by this machine - fluctuate with my metabolic efficacy (affected by things like VLCD & hormone imbalance, etc.) if it were accurate??" (ETA: attacking this question on two fronts, I've sent it to the machine manufacturers and will share any response they give me with all of you.)

I have been debating whether I need to go up or down in calories, and whether I should even do a full metabolic reset. I was never VLCD, though I did overtrain a couple months last year. I've been eating at a roughly TDEE-15% cut since October of last year, started strength training in November, and, after an initial drop of two lbs, gained a couple lbs above my starting weight and have stayed there steadily since then. My overall body has gone +-3 inches in that time (so pretty much stayed the same inch-wise overall).

I was *this* close to cutting another hundred calories, when I took the test today and learned that my RMR is higher than the target calorie amount I was thinking of moving down to (1550-1600).

My diary is open (though last week was not typical; please look at a 3 week window to get a better idea of my average intakes).

Please let me know if I can answer any other questions. This post is perhaps just another one of those "Should I go up/down/do a full reset?" threads at the end of the day. Sorry for being repetitive.

(One little other factor worth mentioning: During the test, they made me sit on a table with no backrest. It's TOM for me, and cramps made it difficult for me to sit up straight and I had to put a little effort into it. There's a chance I was expending more energy sitting there than if I'd had a chair with a backrest. So I think I wasn't completely "at rest" while the test was performed and that might have made my RMR a little higher than it should have been.)

Thanks for listening.

- Myles

amanda_gent

I don't know much about those machines, but my gut tells me the reading is definitely off. I'm also 5'3" and all the numbers I've run on my BMR are 1250 ish. Can't imagine that your RMR (which is supposed to be higher than BMR, yes?) would be THAT much higher than my BMR (unless you are WAY WAY young and have good muscle mass).


As far as whether you should go up or down in calories, without taking a look at your diary, I am a firm believer in not going at a deficit -- EVER -- for longer than 8 weeks without taking a week off at full TDEE. Only because my body quickly adapted to the lower calorie level I put it through last spring and I don't ever want it to happen again!!

If you can mentally handle it, full TDEE for one week (don't go crazy!!) and then recut at 15% -20% depending on how close you are to goal weight.

Edit to add: I see you are only 5 lbs. from goal? It's just slow going at this point. As much as we want to arrive at our number with a BANG and be done with it LOL it just isn't going to happen that way!
Just a shout out to heybales' worksheet -- try it out if you haven't already and are unsure about how many calories to eat. It's on his home page.

heybales

Was it a surprise reading, or were you prepared for it?

There should be no food for 8-10 hrs prior, and no exercise 24 hrs prior.

Also not true RMR if not laying down awake or in easy chair. Balanced on table means slightly higher than RMR.

Body digesting food screws up the O2 and CO2 readings, as does body recovering from exercise, in case it was the type that takes recovery for a long time.

As to can RMR be effected by eating level, compared to what is expected based on tested LBM?

You bet.

Can also be effected by cardiovascular fitness. I've always based my eating level on BMR based on tested LBM.
When I got my VO2max test, first part is baseline, sitting for 5 min. That is just like yours, slightly higher than true RMR test.
That measured RMR was 200 calories less than what would be calculated based on tested LBM.

In my case, I was eating enough then, except for fact it appears my exercise calories were reported really low, but I was still eating enough. So I wasn't suppressing it. Just fit.

But I'm not going off lower figure yet, seeing how this month goes, mainly because I'm so hungry anyway.

So first, BF, and therefore LBM, was a stat gotten how?
Measurements? What if you did the 5% accuracy range and went down in BF, which means up in LBM. Now how does the RMR compare?

BTW, in the spreadsheet, TDEE Deficit tab, near the top is a place to put your tested RMR if it was valid test. It'll show you what the calculated RMR is based on the BF% you entered on the Simple Setup tab, and it'll show you what the BMR would be if that RMR was true.

Basically, if it was lower, might be a signal you are suppressed, or have less LBM and higher fat then you think.
If it was higher, means you might have more LBM and less fat than you think. There is some variance to metabolism too, but when BMR/RMR is based on LBM and no other medical factors, studies have shown within 5%, or 75 calories for 1500 BMR. So that could be some of it.

In which case, useful to use that stat given for BMR that your tested RMR would equal. Go back to the Simple Setup tab, and change the BF% until the Katch BMR matches what was shown.

So, with your stats if you trust BF 31%.
Katch BMR - 1364
Cunningham RMR - 1512
Tested RMR (really not as low as RMR should be if sitting like that) - 1652 (only 150 more, which 75 could be 5% variance, 75 could be fact not truly resting).
BF% to match that tested RMR - 24.1%
Katch BMR to match that tested RMR - 1463

So, if that was a valid test (which on the sitting aspect was not), that inflated RMR results in a BMR only 100 higher. If you knock some calories off for inflation, the BF% now comes within the 5% accuracy potential of several different methods.

Sorry about all the info here.

Valid test time?
True RMR test - no
Tested BF% or measured how?

Potentially higher BMR - hard to know since not a true RMR test.

amylahminute

Thanks so much for your feedback, both of you!

To answer heyBales' question about where the BF% came from, it was from the DEXA (GE Lunar DXA machine) scan I had done on 11/17/12. There's a chance it changed a teensy bit since then from lifting, but probably negligible. To answer your question about the empty stomach, I was fasted for 13 hrs by the time they'd administered the test. The most recent exercise prior to test was a 3.0mph walk that finished 21 hrs before the test.

I went back to the gym after my OP today, and reviewed the results with my trainer. When I looked at the line chart, it was obvious that I had "fidgeted" in the first couple of minutes of the test. So he removed the "fidgety" data, and took the average where my movement had flatlined. That produced a RMR of 1559.

Take into account the fact that I was putting effort into sitting balanced on the table, and perhaps my true RMR is close to that of the Cunningham equation (1512)?.

So, back to my original question, should I take the RMR read-out (even with margin of error) as confirmation that my metabolism is *not* depressed (and therefore don't need to do a full 8wk reset?).

And if I don't have a damaged metabolism, what could other likely explanations for my plateau be? I'm thinking:

I'm just bad at calculating intake and I'm still eating too much. I weigh my meals at home. At work, my company has an 75% organic/locavore cafeteria - i.e. clean ingredients, meals made from scratch - and they publish the nutritional analyses of all their meals. They put out a sample plate to show the proper portions to match their nutritional data. When I eat there, I take the nutritional data for 1 meal and multiply it by 1.2 to account for the staff serving larger portions than shown. As a family, we eat out maybe 3 times a week, and I can see myself making errors there.

(Amanda, to your point, you're right. I really do need to at least take a diet break and eat maintenance for a week, which I don't think I've done in maybe a year. Also, I really need to fix how many lbs my profile says I want to lose. I wasn't setting my goals by scale weight. I just wanted to hit a BF% of maybe 25%, so I guess that's roughly 13 lbs of fat loss.)

OK. So at this point, what's my next move? I'm thinking, 1-2 weeks of eating at maintenance. (I'm not opposed to a full reset at all! I just want to confirm I need one, which was the reason I took the RMR test). Then go back to my cut, and when I do, I guess I should just try extra hard to eat only foods that I personally weighed or are pre-portioned? What do you think of this approach?

Thanks bunches again!

heybales

I went back to the gym after my OP today, and reviewed the results with my trainer. When I looked at the line chart, it was obvious that I had "fidgeted" in the first couple of minutes of the test. So he removed the "fidgety" data, and took the average where my movement had flatlined. That produced a RMR of 1559.

Take into account the fact that I was putting effort into sitting balanced on the table, and perhaps my true RMR is close to that of the Cunningham equation (1512)?.

So, back to my original question, should I take the RMR read-out (even with margin of error) as confirmation that my metabolism is *not* depressed (and therefore don't need to do a full 8wk reset?).

And if I don't have a damaged metabolism, what could other likely explanations for my plateau be? I'm thinking:

I'm just bad at calculating intake and I'm still eating too much. I weigh my meals at home. At work, my company has an 75% organic/locavore cafeteria - i.e. clean ingredients, meals made from scratch - and they publish the nutritional analyses of all their meals. They put out a sample plate to show the proper portions to match their nutritional data. When I eat there, I take the nutritional data for 1 meal and multiply it by 1.2 to account for the staff serving larger portions than shown. As a family, we eat out maybe 3 times a week, and I can see myself making errors there.

(Amanda, to your point, you're right. I really do need to at least take a diet break and eat maintenance for a week, which I don't think I've done in maybe a year. Also, I really need to fix how many lbs my profile says I want to lose. I wasn't setting my goals by scale weight. I just wanted to hit a BF% of maybe 25%, so I guess that's roughly 13 lbs of fat loss.)

OK. So at this point, what's my next move? I'm thinking, 1-2 weeks of eating at maintenance. (I'm not opposed to a full reset at all! I just want to confirm I need one, which was the reason I took the RMR test). Then go back to my cut, and when I do, I guess I should just try extra hard to eat only foods that I personally weighed or are pre-portioned? What do you think of this approach?

Great news then that you had a valid test, and you are indeed within 3% of expected for your measured LBM.
And considering you may indeed have gained some LBM, might be dead on.
That's why I always say of the 2 test, LBM or RMR, go for the LBM first.

That does mean your metabolism is running at full steam. Doesn't mean it's going to absorb stress the way it could or should or would without moving quickly.

Meaning too much stress and the screwed hormones are going to fight ya. But, that does mean you should be able to have some deficit with out that happening.

Couple week reset still good idea, mainly to nail what the real TDEE is with your workout routine. That way you'll know what to deficit from.

So you may be a tad sloppy on the intake side at work, but also on what is the output side of the equation?

Have you been having measurement changes during this time of no weight loss?

I don't recall, what was the workout routine then?

Genetics, yo-yo diet experience, exercise type, ect, all can be factors in how much deficit your body will allow before it feels too stressed and your eating level becomes your new TDEE. Or it lowers enough that LBM gains with fat loss cancel each other out on the scale.

amylahminute

Bales, I so appreciate your presence on the boards. You, more than anyone else, has provided me with more tools and education than people I've even paid to advise me. Can I nominate you for MFP sainthood?

To answer your last question, my workout routine has been erratic. I've been aiming for heavy lifting 45 min-1hr on MWF and light cardio on Tu/Thu. But DOMS gets in the way, where I just don't feel ready to lift after just 1 day off. Plus, I'm a social runner, hiker and biker, and I'm trying to just stay in condition for the 12k we talked about earlier, so if a friend asks me to go out, I will do one of those activities with him/her, and wear a HRM. Friends also ask me to take high-intensity bootcamp/circuit training/bodypump classes with them too and I usually accept the invitations. On those days my burns are in the 500-995 range, and I've been eating back up to at least BMR. I've been doing those higher-burn days at least once a week, and what's suffered has been my lifting. So anyway, I've tried to make lifting my focus, but have been averaging only 2.5 lifting sessions/week. Really trying to get that up to 3. So guess it's a little obvious that I need to get some regularity to my routine, huh?

heybales

Bales, I so appreciate your presence on the boards. You, more than anyone else, has provided me with more tools and education than people I've even paid to advise me. Can I nominate you for MFP sainthood?

To answer your last question, my workout routine has been erratic. I've been aiming for heavy lifting 45 min-1hr on MWF and light cardio on Tu/Thu. But DOMS gets in the way, where I just don't feel ready to lift after just 1 day off. Plus, I'm a social runner, hiker and biker, and I'm trying to just stay in condition for the 12k we talked about earlier, so if a friend asks me to go out, I will do one of those activities with him/her, and wear a HRM. Friends also ask me to take high-intensity bootcamp/circuit training/bodypump classes with them too and I usually accept the invitations. On those days my burns are in the 500-995 range, and I've been eating back up to at least BMR. I've been doing those higher-burn days at least once a week, and what's suffered has been my lifting. So anyway, I've tried to make lifting my focus, but have been averaging only 2.5 lifting sessions/week. Really trying to get that up to 3. So guess it's a little obvious that I need to get some regularity to my routine, huh?

Oh thank you, and oh please ...! (something like that)

I'm a born troubleshooter on whatever I enjoy doing. Work, cars, home energy efficiency, diet, exercise, spreadsheets, ect.

What if you just picked 2 days a week for lifting, somehow following and proceeding days appropriate for it, so perhaps spread out, and leave the other days open for the fun stuff.

The DOMS will get better, that's for sure. Is the recovery day as much recovery as it should be, or some of the social routines make it harder than you intended?

If you can figure out 2 days to nail the lifting on, and just plan on 3, 4, or whatever hrs of other cardio type stuff weekly, you could still use the spreadsheet activity calc with that new more realistic schedule.

So it sounds like at least the lifting is in maintenance mode, meaning you may be tired already doing it, but at least using it, not expecting much improvement in weight from it. Well, unless still new to you, can still increase.

The Activity Calc with less lifting more cardio also will lessen the deficit, which will be better.

DoxieLove10612

There should be no food for 8-10 hrs prior, and no exercise 24 hrs prior.

8-10 hours?? Everything I have read and my professional said 2 hours. This is really confusing. Where did you get this information? If it is that long then I am royally screwed bc my test is at 7 pm tomorrow and I will prob eat a late lunch around 3 to keep me going.

heybales

There should be no food for 8-10 hrs prior, and no exercise 24 hrs prior.

8-10 hours?? Everything I have read and my professional said 2 hours. This is really confusing. Where did you get this information? If it is that long then I am royally screwed bc my test is at 7 pm tomorrow and I will prob eat a late lunch around 3 to keep me going.

2 hrs is not nearly long enough, 8 is more on the safe side. 4 is usually minimum.

How long does it take to digest food?

That is how long your breathing CO2 production is NOT based solely on energy your body is spending on metabolism, but also food digestion, and actually the effects of what macro's were in the food.
So any food digestion will totally throw off an RMR test.

That's what is measured actually, CO2 and O2. O2 used, and CO2 expelled, both spell out what source of energy was being used and how much of it.

Just do a Google search of RMR testing, and find sites that do it, quick look of 4-5 sites all say 4 hr min since last meal. I'd go for six and light meal low protein which digests the slowest.

aliciab307

This thread is very informative! I got my rmr tested and have been resetting for almost 6 weeks and was wanting to change up my routine to insanity full time to get a mini break from lifting and elliptical but dont want to mess up my reset as insanity is higher intensity. I started double thinking if my rmr test was indeed valid and didnt know we could confirm on the spreadsheet. I will do that when I get home. My rmr test was done laying down very minimal movement and I fid not exercise for more than 24 hours prior and testing was at 7a and was instructed to not eat or drink after 10p.

alleekat

I second aliciab307 of the informativeness of this thread! Thank you all!!

I had my RMR re-tested a couple of months ago via Korr Revue, and I suspected the entire time that the person administering the test had given me poor prep directions. I was told not to exercise 12 hours prior, not eat a *heavy* meal two hours prior and no caffeine. When I arrived, she set me up in a folding chair, where I couldn't lean back comfortably, and I had to hold the tube up to my mouth with one hand because the set up was such that it would have fallen out of my mouth (or I'd have to seriously grip it with my jaw) otherwise. My other concern was that because it was one of those where the nose is clipped, and you breathe through your mouth I felt like I was taking some deeper breaths (and then bigger exhales), in order to get in adequate oxygen. I tried my best to relax my breathing to closer to a restful state, but I never really managed a truly comfortable breathing pattern.

After all of that, my test results came back at 1680! I'm 39, 5'3.5" 145lbs. She offered to retest for free, after I questioned the numbers, but I still paid, and it's not a cheap test. I have some strong "buyers remorse" (for a number of other reasons as well).
Last year I had my RMR tested at 7am, with correct prep instructions. The machine used a mask, so I was able to breathe comfortably, and I was set up in an armchair, where I could relaxed with no/minimal movement. That test came back at 1175 - probably lower due to undereating at the time, but more accurate, I feel.
I would have gone back there, if I hadn't moved out of state.

I will try to confirm on the spreadsheet! Thanks!

CarrieStL

I second aliciab307 of the informativeness of this thread! Thank you all!!

I had my RMR re-tested a couple of months ago via Korr Revue, and I suspected the entire time that the person administering the test had given me poor prep directions. I was told not to exercise 12 hours prior, not eat a *heavy* meal two hours prior and no caffeine. When I arrived, she set me up in a folding chair, where I couldn't lean back comfortably, and I had to hold the tube up to my mouth with one hand because the set up was such that it would have fallen out of my mouth (or I'd have to seriously grip it with my jaw) otherwise. My other concern was that because it was one of those where the nose is clipped, and you breathe through your mouth I felt like I was taking some deeper breaths (and then bigger exhales), in order to get in adequate oxygen. I tried my best to relax my breathing to closer to a restful state, but I never really managed a truly comfortable breathing pattern.

After all of that, my test results came back at 1680! I'm 39, 5'3.5" 145lbs. She offered to retest for free, after I questioned the numbers, but I still paid, and it's not a cheap test. I have some strong "buyers remorse" (for a number of other reasons as well).
Last year I had my RMR tested at 7am, with correct prep instructions. The machine used a mask, so I was able to breathe comfortably, and I was set up in an armchair, where I could relaxed with no/minimal movement. That test came back at 1175 - probably lower due to undereating at the time, but more accurate, I feel.
I would have gone back there, if I hadn't moved out of state.

I will try to confirm on the spreadsheet! Thanks!

I just had mine done in the Department of Kinesiology at a local University. Fast was overnight, no exercise for 24 hours, laid on a table for almost an hour with my entire head and torso tented. The length- so I truly reached rested state, while he ensured I didn't dose off which also affects the numbers.

This sounds incorrect, all of your procedures! Def look into local universities!

alleekat

I just had mine done in the Department of Kinesiology at a local University. Fast was overnight, no exercise for 24 hours, laid on a table for almost an hour with my entire head and torso tented. The length- so I truly reached rested state, while he ensured I didn't dose off which also affects the numbers.

This sounds incorrect, all of your procedures! Def look into local universities!

Thanks! I'll definitely check out a local university. The time for my tests was only 10 minutes. I don't see how that could give a truly accurate number, especially when propped in a folding chair and holding up an air tube. :-/

heybales

I just had mine done in the Department of Kinesiology at a local University. Fast was overnight, no exercise for 24 hours, laid on a table for almost an hour with my entire head and torso tented. The length- so I truly reached rested state, while he ensured I didn't dose off which also affects the numbers.

This sounds incorrect, all of your procedures! Def look into local universities!

Thanks! I'll definitely check out a local university. The time for my tests was only 10 minutes. I don't see how that could give a truly accurate number, especially when propped in a folding chair and holding up an air tube. :-/

Ya, that is chinsy. I'll bet they forgot an adapter for proper face mask so pretended this was normal process. Maybe someone was napping on the nice lay back chair too.
Did they put you in a janitor's closet per chance?

alleekat

Ya, that is chinsy. I'll bet they forgot an adapter for proper face mask so pretended this was normal process. Maybe someone was napping on the nice lay back chair too.
Did they put you in a janitor's closet per chance?

Indeed, they may as well have put me in a janitor's closet!
I had this recent one done at a small, privately-owned fitness center, I had no idea how small, until I walked in for my appointment. Being new to the area, I was relying on internet research, the company website, yelp/user reviews, etc...
I was set up in my oh-so-comfortable folding chair at the reception desk in their tiny office area/cubicle. The whole thing niggled at me as wrong, but I didn't know how to get out of it, and I thought, "well, they do this all the time, maybe it's a different system with which I'm unfamiliar".
They were really kind and personable, and it was evident they tried to make a real connection with their clients. I think they truly meant well, and they really believed they knew what they were doing. Unfortunately, I think it just highlights the shortcomings of some of the fitness industry and the requirements (or lack thereof) for some certifications... much like those personal trainers (and doctors!) who tell you to eat 1200 calories to lose weight. My initial concerns were multiplied, when the test administrator emphatically claimed that her bio electrical impedance bathroom scale was a much better way to test body composition and more accurate than calipers.
I guess I can chalk it up to a learning experience.