To cut or to bulk- that is the question

maruby95

So about a year ago, I weighed 98-100 lbs (I'm 5'3") with about 19 % BF per calipers and tape measure. Waist was 26, hips 34, bicep 9.5, neck 12, forearm 7. Basically: skinny. I was just beginning to lift heavy and I had been running for quite a while. Eating VLCD (1200 or less)

So after much input from more experienced people, I started focusing more on heavy lifting and less on cardio in hopes of building some LBM. Traded most of my running for hiking/ hilly walks. But I hadn't yet committed to upping the calories. Not much happened over the next 6 months. I gained 3-4 pounds, measurements stayed about the same and strength increased some. BF stayed 19%.

In Oct, I decided to brave a reset and eat at TDEE (1700-1800). Still lifting heavy. Did that for 2.5 months with a total of a 5ish pound gain and about an inch gain in waist and thighs. Nothing drastic. Body fat stayed the same (really?!?). Maxed out about 109 lbs.

But I was feeling squishy and couldn't see the muscle I was working so hard for. So I decided to cut as of Jan 1. Still lifting with some light recovery cardio on non-lifting days. I've been eating at TDEE - 20% for about 3.5 weeks (1400). My intention was to cut down to 16% BF. So far, I'm down to 105 lbs but, seriously, my BF is measuring the SAME?!?! Obviously I'm doing something wrong. My tape measurements are down some though: wasit 25.5, hips 34.5, bicep 10.25 (up , calf up, forearm 8.5 (up). So I'm clearly losing inches very slowly but I'm telling you I still can't see muscles . The online calculators average out to about 19-20% BF for me, which is what it's been since I first starting measuring over a year ago. Can that actually be right?! Frustrating.

At this point I am more focused on BF than weight, but am losing hope that I can actually effect change in this department. And I'm starting to question my plan to diet down to 100 lbs (15-16%) b/c I don't want to eat less (that's progress . But I'm also a little worried that if I go back to TDEE or even a little above, I won't gain much LBM (casue I didn't really gain much last time) and Ill just end up with a higher BF at the start of summer.

And if I just sit at TDEE for a while (indefinitely) and continue lifting, I'm guessing I could expect very slow changes but not anything measurable. And I like goals. So, should I go for a true attempt at a bulk in hopes of adding enough LBM that I could eventually go down to 15-16% BF and still be a reasonable weight? Or hang at TDEE and just take whatever minute changes come? Or continue to cut the BF down and then try to add LBM again?

Thanks for any advice- and I'm sorry this eded up being so LONG!!!!

anna

Sarauk2sf

How long have you been lifting for and what program are you doing? Are you just using the online calculators to estimate BF%?

taylorwaylor

All i know is that you should'nt bulk until your body fat is low... Because when you have a higher body fat its easier to gain more fat... and then with a lower body fat its harder to gain fat.. So i don't think you should bulk.... but idk.

amanda_gent

Hi Maruby

I've been wondering the same thing for myself and so I've been hanging around the women's journals section of the bodybuilding.com forum. There are several women there who have been bulking over the winter and are starting their cuts soon for the spring/summer season. What I've learned is this:

It is dang HARD to build muscle and impossible to do so on any kind of calorie deficit. These women were gaining .5 lbs a week with the sole intent of building muscle. When they cut they will hopefully keep most of it and lose the fat. I am somewhat new to this idea so I'm just watching in awe as they transform.

Anyhow, I believe any efforts to build additional muscle while on a deficit is futile. What happened to you this month is that you've been losing the lean body mass you've just built up by not eating enough to preserve it! This doesn't mean stop lifting, forget it, it's never gonna happen, it means if you seriously want to change your body composition and what you've been doing isn't working for you try another tact. Eating at a controlled surplus and lifting even more seriously is what's in the cards if you're shooting for the body I think you are!

Since you are so slim already, I don't see how taking away more calories is going to change your composition -- so what's left is bulking. Maybe poke around at bb.com and see how other women are doing it. There are some girls there with your stats I think.

Message me if you want more direction!

Good luck!

SideSteel

Here's my fragmented reply for what it's worth.

First, it's obviously your choice to decide what your goals are but you do sound quite focused on what the number says, regarding bodyfat. I'm not sure I like this approach for several reasons but suffice it to say that I think you should use the mirror to ultimately tell you what's going on.

16% is very lean -- not undoable but that's pretty lean. Do you anticipate staying at that leanness and maintaining it for extended periods?

I would estimate that to be about equivalent to 9% in a male. Speculative statement: There certainly are people that just chill out at that level of leanness but it's certainly not easy for "most" people to maintain it, so from that standpoint I'd at least pose the question to you as to whether your plan was to live at that bodyfat or just get there for a few weeks to see if you can do it.


Your lack of change in bodyfat% is very likely measurement/methodological error. Losing 5lbs and seeing measurement changes should absolutely change your bodyfat%.

Lastly, whether or not you should cut or bulk is ultimately up to you. If you think you've got enough lean mass right now to cut further, then you can certainly make an attempt at cutting down to 16% realizing that you may lose a little bit of lean mass. If you don't think you've got a satisfactory amount of LBM then I'd bulk.

As far as your fear of adding fat, get used to it. You can't avoid it. You can keep it to moderate/reasonable levels by not eating at too large of a surplus and by lifting heavy with a program that uses progressive overload.

Nothing wrong with eating at TDEE for a few weeks but my belief is that bulking followed by a cut will be more efficient.

EDIT: Given your stats, I would not cut further. I would bulk.

Sarauk2sf

I agree that you should bulk as you are are at a pretty low weight and your BF% is at a level where it makes sense. Normally, I would suggest going lower than 19% - 20% if someone is amenable and based on personal preference and training routine/experience, however, you are at in the underweight category and so I am not sure that would be advisable. Getting a better handle on your BF% (as in how you are calculating it) would be good to be a bit more definitive.

So, assuming that you should not be looking to lose more body fat due to you low LBM, and depending on the lifting program you are on, you may want to stay at maintenance for a month or two, so your input as to what you are doing would be useful.

With that being said, when you bulk, you should eat at about 250 - 350 calories above maintenance. In order to gain muscle you need to ensure that you are doing a good progressive loading strength training program and are getting enough protein. You will gain some fat - it's just the unfortunate side of bulking, and as a woman, the muscle gains will be slow going - but if you want to do a recomposition and gain some muscle mass, then bulking makes sense.

maruby95

How long have you been lifting for and what program are you doing? Are you just using the online calculators to estimate BF%?

OK. First, I'm sorry I haven't responded before now. I don't live in the US and am therefore in a different time zone.

I have been lifting about 18 months. I have used various different lifting programs, but am currently using a full body one I found on bb.com 3x/week. It focuses on compound lifts 3 sets of about 10 reps with relatively short rest periods (30-45 sec). I've only been doing this since cutting (so about a month). Before that I was doing fewer reps with heavier weight.

I've used online calculators based on tape measurements as well as calipers to measure BF. They give me roughly the same numbers.

maruby95

Here's my fragmented reply for what it's worth.

First, it's obviously your choice to decide what your goals are but you do sound quite focused on what the number says, regarding bodyfat. I'm not sure I like this approach for several reasons but suffice it to say that I think you should use the mirror to ultimately tell you what's going on.

16% is very lean -- not undoable but that's pretty lean. Do you anticipate staying at that leanness and maintaining it for extended periods?

I would estimate that to be about equivalent to 9% in a male. Speculative statement: There certainly are people that just chill out at that level of leanness but it's certainly not easy for "most" people to maintain it, so from that standpoint I'd at least pose the question to you as to whether your plan was to live at that bodyfat or just get there for a few weeks to see if you can do it.


Your lack of change in bodyfat% is very likely measurement/methodological error. Losing 5lbs and seeing measurement changes should absolutely change your bodyfat%.

Lastly, whether or not you should cut or bulk is ultimately up to you. If you think you've got enough lean mass right now to cut further, then you can certainly make an attempt at cutting down to 16% realizing that you may lose a little bit of lean mass. If you don't think you've got a satisfactory amount of LBM then I'd bulk.

As far as your fear of adding fat, get used to it. You can't avoid it. You can keep it to moderate/reasonable levels by not eating at too large of a surplus and by lifting heavy with a program that uses progressive overload.

Nothing wrong with eating at TDEE for a few weeks but my belief is that bulking followed by a cut will be more efficient.

EDIT: Given your stats, I would not cut further. I would bulk.

Thank you for this. What you say about being able to maintain it is a very valid point. No, I don't just want to get there for a couple of weeks. I a looking for something sustainable. And I only picked 16% as a guess on what I would need to be to be able to see some definition. Nothing magic about that number for me.

I do think a bulk is going to make the most sense. I'm not sure I have the LBM to support going lower first. Although I'm starting to wonder about my potential, or lack thereof. I mean, even if a bust my butt for several months I might end up with 2 pounds of LBM gained and then have to cut fat all over again. Is it worth it? Will it make enough of a difference to see or will I end up looking the same?

maruby95

Sorry- one more question. How long do people usually bulk for? 8 weeks? 12? less? What if I did 4 weeks at bulk followed by 4 weeks at cut and repeat- is that ridiculous? I'd really like to be cutting and not bulking in swimsuit season (which starts about April or May where I am). Or maybe a 6 week bulk followed by a 6 week cut? That would take me to summer...

Never done a real bulk before- I can use whatever advise you've got.

Thanks for all the advise so far! And if I can get the nerve up, I'm going to send you some pictures for a visual guess at my BF.

anna

Sublog

Here's my fragmented reply for what it's worth.

First, it's obviously your choice to decide what your goals are but you do sound quite focused on what the number says, regarding bodyfat. I'm not sure I like this approach for several reasons but suffice it to say that I think you should use the mirror to ultimately tell you what's going on.

16% is very lean -- not undoable but that's pretty lean. Do you anticipate staying at that leanness and maintaining it for extended periods?

I would estimate that to be about equivalent to 9% in a male. Speculative statement: There certainly are people that just chill out at that level of leanness but it's certainly not easy for "most" people to maintain it, so from that standpoint I'd at least pose the question to you as to whether your plan was to live at that bodyfat or just get there for a few weeks to see if you can do it.


Your lack of change in bodyfat% is very likely measurement/methodological error. Losing 5lbs and seeing measurement changes should absolutely change your bodyfat%.

Lastly, whether or not you should cut or bulk is ultimately up to you. If you think you've got enough lean mass right now to cut further, then you can certainly make an attempt at cutting down to 16% realizing that you may lose a little bit of lean mass. If you don't think you've got a satisfactory amount of LBM then I'd bulk.

As far as your fear of adding fat, get used to it. You can't avoid it. You can keep it to moderate/reasonable levels by not eating at too large of a surplus and by lifting heavy with a program that uses progressive overload.

Nothing wrong with eating at TDEE for a few weeks but my belief is that bulking followed by a cut will be more efficient.

EDIT: Given your stats, I would not cut further. I would bulk.

Agreed with SS... You likely didn't gain much if any muscle in such a short period of time due to a lack of excess calories. It takes time, years to gain muscle. A natural woman with a good routine and diet can only gain 1/4 lb a week at most of muscle during an optimal bulk. Its going to take more than one bulk to see your muscles. A few lbs will make a small difference, but don't expect to see deep cuts when you only gained like a few pounds of muscle.

I think you could continue to bulk and I think your expectations are a bit high. It takes time. Those of us who are under-trained will need to go through several bulk cut cycles. Sounded like you stopped your bulk way too soon IMO.

Sublog

Sorry- one more question. How long do people usually bulk for? 8 weeks? 12? less? What if I did 4 weeks at bulk followed by 4 weeks at cut and repeat- is that ridiculous? I'd really like to be cutting and not bulking in swimsuit season (which starts about April or May where I am). Or maybe a 6 week bulk followed by a 6 week cut? That would take me to summer...

Never done a real bulk before- I can use whatever advise you've got.

Thanks for all the advise so far! And if I can get the nerve up, I'm going to send you some pictures for a visual guess at my BF.

anna

I usually have a cap of body fat or I bulk until I can barely fit my clothes anymore. I can gain 15 lbs and still fit my pants, but they are tight.

Sarauk2sf

How long have you been lifting for and what program are you doing? Are you just using the online calculators to estimate BF%?

OK. First, I'm sorry I haven't responded before now. I don't live in the US and am therefore in a different time zone.

I have been lifting about 18 months. I have used various different lifting programs, but am currently using a full body one I found on bb.com 3x/week. It focuses on compound lifts 3 sets of about 10 reps with relatively short rest periods (30-45 sec). I've only been doing this since cutting (so about a month). Before that I was doing fewer reps with heavier weight.

I've used online calculators based on tape measurements as well as calipers to measure BF. They give me roughly the same numbers.

No worries about the delay in responding.

I would bulk now based on where you are with your lifting and not do the sitting at maintenance I mentioned as you have been lifting long enough not to be seeing any newbie gains anymore.

As Sublog says, you will need a couple of bulk/cut cycles to see any appreciable gains in mass as unfortunately women just cannot gain very quick. You could do a short bulk before the summer then cut and then do a longer one during the fall/winter. I think that you should go longer than 4 weeks however for the short bulk - 8 weeks would be better imo and still allow time to cut for the summer with a little overlap. It is an unfortunate 'side effect' of bulking that you will gain fat as well.

psuLemon

I just brought my popcorn to see how things play out! This is good information. I am definitely on board with everyone that suggest the bulk, but you might have already known that :happy:

BurtHuttz

Bump, as they say.