How weight loss works
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Siege_Tank
Posts: 781 Member
Almost all of the arguments are full of emotion and psychological projection. Some people passionately believe that eating less than your BMR will leech lean body mass and is not enough calories to support the basic functions of day to day life, and is a general risk to being healthy. They are sweet to care about our well-being with such passion, but a lot of what they say is anecdotal and closer to wives tails and good stories than scientific fact.
That was taken February 19th, 2012 after I had decided to lose weight at 210 lbs - 35% bodyfat. I lost 5 pounds at first, not really following any calorie recommendations - listening to several trainers at the gym who offered "free" advice. They said to watch what I ate, I didn't have to count calories, I just had to eat nutritious. LOTS of baked chicken, stay away from the fried, eat whole wheat, no white breads, pastas or rice.
I spent hundreds of dollars on GNC supplements, protein shakes, meal replacement shakes, multivitamins, vita packs with different goat weed extracts and all that nonsense, fat burning pills, raspberry ketones.
It was ALL bull****. I lost maybe ten pounds, and wound up getting sick. After I was over that week-long cold, I didn't drop another pound. I kept at it... for 5 months. I ate less, I went hungry more often than not, and yet my weight stayed the same. I couldn't fathom what I was missing in the equation.
I read all kinds of things on here that told me that it took weeks to adjust to new calorie levels, plateaus, different restrictions caused different changes.. I have read, re-read, and read newer and newer updates from the different groups. It was August before reality hit me. I was doing really well, staying positive, telling myself that I was doing good. I had just found Omegle and one of the people that I was connected with had a shocked look and just said "fat" before disappearing.
It had been 5 months, and I was still 205 pounds - I still weighed close to my starting weight.
In September I started logging my food, every last bite. I wrote it down on paper to make it more real for me. I was so tired of being called fat, I was so tired of being looked at differently. I wanted to die, I didn't want to exist in this body any longer.
My first log was 600 calories worth of sushi around lunch, a 6 inch subway sandwich @ 320 calories for dinner, and after dinner I ate 300 calories worth of peanuts. I wasn't full, but I wasn't starving.
The next day was half a bagel, a bit of apple, and a cup of steamed white rice, topped off with a protein shake. - 800 calories. THIS was a day of hunger.
The rest of my week was like that, and the week after and the week after. Sometimes more calories, sometimes less. MFP recommends for my -1.5 lb/wk that I eat somewhere around 1350, and eat back exercise calories.
After 30 days from the day after September 11th, I was down to 185 pounds. After another 30 days I was down to 177. Since February I am down to 171.
That's me as of Friday night. I'm still 23% bodyfat, but I'm closer to my goal. Right click and hit view image.
Eating nothing and doing hours of running is *not* a proper way to lose weight. So many fitness magazines and websites offer the same cookie cutter advice. Too much cardio in a cut puts too much stress on your body, and encourages muscle loss through gluconeogenesis.
At the cellular level, we love carbs. We love em, our cells run on carbs, which our bodies break down into glucose, or simple sugar. Plants make their own glucose, animals of all kinds graze on grains (carbs) all day long (except the carnivores). We also need some fats for hormone production, and some protein for structural repair, like replenishment of red blood cells and fighting infection with our white cells and clotting the blood from a cut with platelets.
When we try and lose fat, we do it in the opposite way that we gained weight. We eat less. As we maintain a calorie deficit, our liver makes up for the lack of food by taking protein and fats, and essentially synthesizing glucose for our cells right in our liver!
The downsides to cutting calories is that.. glucose production (gluconeogenesis) requires fatty acids and proteins... proteins like muscles. So calorie cuts often show muscle mass loss... UNLESS the person is eating a sufficient amount of protein. There was a study done back in 2002 that showed that when a low carb diet was employed (and by way of saying high protein) eating at any calorie level did not result in muscle mass loss. It did show accelerated fat mass loss, but I'm not advocating for low carb, low fat, high fruit, intermittent fasting, or any other kind of diet. What I take away from the study is that you can safely cut calories without risking losing your muscles if you eat enough protein.
Some people say eating at 1200 is wrong, unhealthy, and even dangerous. But, none of those statements are supported by research. Protein + weight training + calorie cuts = a slimmer body in a shorter amount of time while preserving muscle mass. Once the goal is reached, then you have to eat at maintenance, and learn how to maintain. But until that point, when you cut calories below what you need each day, your body makes up for the difference by chaining fats with proteins to create glucose in your liver. During a drastic cut refeed days are great, and keeping your metabolism up through light cardio is great, but during ANY cut your metabolic rate will slow. More on that in a moment...
I just don't understand why calorie cuts that are deeper than 15% are *forbidden* by some. For a person who maintains weight at 2000 calories, a cut at 15% would be 300. -300 calories per day with NO oops days, cheat days, fall off the wagon days, or high stress days would take 12 days to lose 1 pound. -3500 calories = 1 pound of weight loss. For a shorter, smaller person who maintains weight at 1400 calories, a 15% cut would be -210 calories per day, or almost 17 days to see a pound lost.
12 days to go from 180 lbs to 179. Another 12 days to get to 178. I'm sorry, but I'm not satisfied with 2 pounds in almost a month, and a lot of other people are not satisfied with it either.
At some point in this weight loss journey, our fat loss will get to a point where it slows to molasses-in-January speeds, and the only real way to keep the loss steady is to increase our calorie expenditure through exercise. At most, people who cut calories can see up to a 15% reduction in their metabolic rate, but this is only seen with extremely low calorie diets over a long, LONG period of time.
Be careful though, TOO much cardio is just as bad as not enough, as high intensity cardio on a calorie cut requires more energy than most dieters have on hand in their cells, and glucose synthesis kicks into high gear at these times. No amount of dietary protein can make up for the requirements during extreme, TRUE high intensity workouts, and muscle loss is almost a certainty if you try and add the kind of conditioning that Olympic sprinters train with on a dieter's diet. Steady state cardio is fine! 12 minutes of High intensity sprints will burn about as many calories as 30 minutes of jogging. The only difference is that the steady state stuff doesn't threaten muscle mass like HIIT. (And I'd like to see someone do sprint intervals for 12 solid minutes).
If you want to improve your conditioning with HIIT, it is a wonderful mind/body experience that will test you and teach yourself how hard your body can go without failing.. but you should wait until you are in a "healthy" weight class to employ it.
Calorie deficits are a tool in the tool chest, and.. some people don't know how to use a circular saw properly, but that's no reason to say that saws are useless or to advocate against their use. Everyone should know how to use every tool to slay the beast that is obesity.
Hey cool, I rhymed!
That was taken February 19th, 2012 after I had decided to lose weight at 210 lbs - 35% bodyfat. I lost 5 pounds at first, not really following any calorie recommendations - listening to several trainers at the gym who offered "free" advice. They said to watch what I ate, I didn't have to count calories, I just had to eat nutritious. LOTS of baked chicken, stay away from the fried, eat whole wheat, no white breads, pastas or rice.
I spent hundreds of dollars on GNC supplements, protein shakes, meal replacement shakes, multivitamins, vita packs with different goat weed extracts and all that nonsense, fat burning pills, raspberry ketones.
It was ALL bull****. I lost maybe ten pounds, and wound up getting sick. After I was over that week-long cold, I didn't drop another pound. I kept at it... for 5 months. I ate less, I went hungry more often than not, and yet my weight stayed the same. I couldn't fathom what I was missing in the equation.
I read all kinds of things on here that told me that it took weeks to adjust to new calorie levels, plateaus, different restrictions caused different changes.. I have read, re-read, and read newer and newer updates from the different groups. It was August before reality hit me. I was doing really well, staying positive, telling myself that I was doing good. I had just found Omegle and one of the people that I was connected with had a shocked look and just said "fat" before disappearing.
It had been 5 months, and I was still 205 pounds - I still weighed close to my starting weight.
In September I started logging my food, every last bite. I wrote it down on paper to make it more real for me. I was so tired of being called fat, I was so tired of being looked at differently. I wanted to die, I didn't want to exist in this body any longer.
My first log was 600 calories worth of sushi around lunch, a 6 inch subway sandwich @ 320 calories for dinner, and after dinner I ate 300 calories worth of peanuts. I wasn't full, but I wasn't starving.
The next day was half a bagel, a bit of apple, and a cup of steamed white rice, topped off with a protein shake. - 800 calories. THIS was a day of hunger.
The rest of my week was like that, and the week after and the week after. Sometimes more calories, sometimes less. MFP recommends for my -1.5 lb/wk that I eat somewhere around 1350, and eat back exercise calories.
After 30 days from the day after September 11th, I was down to 185 pounds. After another 30 days I was down to 177. Since February I am down to 171.
That's me as of Friday night. I'm still 23% bodyfat, but I'm closer to my goal. Right click and hit view image.
Eating nothing and doing hours of running is *not* a proper way to lose weight. So many fitness magazines and websites offer the same cookie cutter advice. Too much cardio in a cut puts too much stress on your body, and encourages muscle loss through gluconeogenesis.
At the cellular level, we love carbs. We love em, our cells run on carbs, which our bodies break down into glucose, or simple sugar. Plants make their own glucose, animals of all kinds graze on grains (carbs) all day long (except the carnivores). We also need some fats for hormone production, and some protein for structural repair, like replenishment of red blood cells and fighting infection with our white cells and clotting the blood from a cut with platelets.
When we try and lose fat, we do it in the opposite way that we gained weight. We eat less. As we maintain a calorie deficit, our liver makes up for the lack of food by taking protein and fats, and essentially synthesizing glucose for our cells right in our liver!
The downsides to cutting calories is that.. glucose production (gluconeogenesis) requires fatty acids and proteins... proteins like muscles. So calorie cuts often show muscle mass loss... UNLESS the person is eating a sufficient amount of protein. There was a study done back in 2002 that showed that when a low carb diet was employed (and by way of saying high protein) eating at any calorie level did not result in muscle mass loss. It did show accelerated fat mass loss, but I'm not advocating for low carb, low fat, high fruit, intermittent fasting, or any other kind of diet. What I take away from the study is that you can safely cut calories without risking losing your muscles if you eat enough protein.
Some people say eating at 1200 is wrong, unhealthy, and even dangerous. But, none of those statements are supported by research. Protein + weight training + calorie cuts = a slimmer body in a shorter amount of time while preserving muscle mass. Once the goal is reached, then you have to eat at maintenance, and learn how to maintain. But until that point, when you cut calories below what you need each day, your body makes up for the difference by chaining fats with proteins to create glucose in your liver. During a drastic cut refeed days are great, and keeping your metabolism up through light cardio is great, but during ANY cut your metabolic rate will slow. More on that in a moment...
I just don't understand why calorie cuts that are deeper than 15% are *forbidden* by some. For a person who maintains weight at 2000 calories, a cut at 15% would be 300. -300 calories per day with NO oops days, cheat days, fall off the wagon days, or high stress days would take 12 days to lose 1 pound. -3500 calories = 1 pound of weight loss. For a shorter, smaller person who maintains weight at 1400 calories, a 15% cut would be -210 calories per day, or almost 17 days to see a pound lost.
12 days to go from 180 lbs to 179. Another 12 days to get to 178. I'm sorry, but I'm not satisfied with 2 pounds in almost a month, and a lot of other people are not satisfied with it either.
At some point in this weight loss journey, our fat loss will get to a point where it slows to molasses-in-January speeds, and the only real way to keep the loss steady is to increase our calorie expenditure through exercise. At most, people who cut calories can see up to a 15% reduction in their metabolic rate, but this is only seen with extremely low calorie diets over a long, LONG period of time.
Be careful though, TOO much cardio is just as bad as not enough, as high intensity cardio on a calorie cut requires more energy than most dieters have on hand in their cells, and glucose synthesis kicks into high gear at these times. No amount of dietary protein can make up for the requirements during extreme, TRUE high intensity workouts, and muscle loss is almost a certainty if you try and add the kind of conditioning that Olympic sprinters train with on a dieter's diet. Steady state cardio is fine! 12 minutes of High intensity sprints will burn about as many calories as 30 minutes of jogging. The only difference is that the steady state stuff doesn't threaten muscle mass like HIIT. (And I'd like to see someone do sprint intervals for 12 solid minutes).
If you want to improve your conditioning with HIIT, it is a wonderful mind/body experience that will test you and teach yourself how hard your body can go without failing.. but you should wait until you are in a "healthy" weight class to employ it.
Calorie deficits are a tool in the tool chest, and.. some people don't know how to use a circular saw properly, but that's no reason to say that saws are useless or to advocate against their use. Everyone should know how to use every tool to slay the beast that is obesity.
Hey cool, I rhymed!
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Replies
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The first study showed how a 10 day fast had an effect on the body composition of 7 Obese males, as measured by Underwater weighing. The third Young study, along with the Willi study, and the Volek study all show that a calorie restriction with a diet Composed of low carbs (and incidentally, high protein) Shows how muscle mass can be preserved and even grow.
These studies were all performed with doctors supervision and should not be taken as advocating for VLCD, unhealthy eating habits, or support for or glamorization of Very Low Calorie Diets. However, Any kind of information is better than anecdote and stories, even when it tells you what not to do.
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Great story! thanks for sharing
I'm having sort of the same issue. I've been eating mostly clean foods and working out 5 sometimes 6 times a week and the scale has yet to move. That explains why I'm back on MFP and going to stick to around 1200 calories. Hope the calorie tracking helps me finally see some results because it can be very discouraging to work your butt off for nothing. 0 -
Thank you for sharing your story- I'm glad to hear you finally hit the right path! All trainers recomend you this freaking protein shakes...I personally believe that stuff is just disgusting, fake food...get some real proteins from real food! And fut burning pills...NEVER< EVER TAKE THEM! I know a person who did, lost so much weight in so little time! Then she stopped and she is now double the weight she used to be before those pills... Im not jocking, it's a real, sad story. Good luck to you and keep up with the amazing work!0
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Ok, this is great!! I read it a couple of days ago and then just reread it after the lastest rounds of low cal bashing on the general boards.
I tried eating at 20% below TDEE for 3-4 months. I lost no weight, and nothing in terms of measurments either. The problem I had (I think) was that I ate my calories perfectly all week and then on the weekend I would go out to eat and try to stay within my calories, but we all know restaurant calorie counts cannot be trusted!! So if you're only creating a 1000-2000 calorie deficit for the WEEK and then you have a couple of meals that you can't really control your intake (either b/c of incorrect calorie counts or b/c you just want to indulge a little on the weekends) then you've blown a whole week of deficits! So it just didn't work for me. I need a little more wiggle room than that! I would rather be really really careful about my intake throughout the week and have more of a deficit for weekend splurges and still see a loss. Right now I have about a 5,500 calorie deficit from my TDEE not counting exercise. So even if I don't exercise and go over my calories by 2000 for the week then I should still see a loss. And somehow, I don't feel any more deprived than I did while eating at TDEE -20%. I'm just more careful to eat more filling foods. At a higher calorie diet I felt like I could eat anything so most of those extra calories came from healthy, but calorie dense foods like nuts and cheese anyway. Not something that I miss all that much in terms of food volume.
Congrats on your success so far and thanks so much for giving us some scientific research to back up our low cal decisions. And thanks for doing it in a balanced way that just gives the facts and lets people make up their own minds instead of trying to cram another "one size fits all - my way or the high way" philosophy down our throats!!! Good luck meeting your goals!0 -
Thanks Chris, you explained that so very well.0
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I have been on MFP for 3 weeks coming into my fourth, exercising daily, moderately ,keeping my pulse around 122 which my son calculated for fat burning (he isn't here to ask, and I can't remember he asked for my age and something else to calculate it). I started weights this week not too heavy just 15 kg bar bell doing 3 sets of 3 x reps of dead lift, military press, barbell curl plus push ups. I have lost 5 kg in the time on 1200 cal. My mid section isn't budging (which is why I started the weights) I haven't put back on any weight, but I also have not lost any this whole week. I have noticed a reduction in my arms and legs.
There is so much about the starvation mode on the forum I started looking at other sites for views. Weight watchers http://www.weightwatchers.com.au/util/art/index_art.aspx?tabnum=1&art_id=37261 calls it a myt
here is another that talks of The closest scientific term is adaptive thermogenesis. http://www.burnthefatblog.com/archives/2012/12/starvation-mode-revisited.php -Starvation mode is not a myth, but there IS one big myth about starvation mode
'The best example of this myth in action is the girl who is not losing ANY weight and she swears she’s eating only 800 calories per day. She thinks she’s damaged her metabolism and has gone into “starvation mode.” Although that may be partly true, it’s funny how, if we put that mythical girl in a metabolic ward (locked her in there nice and tight… no Domino’s deliveries…), and fed her a carefully measured and enforced 1200 calories per day, she would suddenly start losing weight…
How could she be stuck at 800 calories and then start losing at 1200 calories? It’s not that she was in starvation mode and eating more took her out of it, the truth is, she was eating more than 800 calories per day to begin with - maybe even twice that (she had a major compliance problem). Most likely, she didn’t realize it, especially if she wasn’t tracking it (that’s why counting calories and weighing and measuring food is the first step to getting clarity about your situation and then breaking your plateau). She simply blamed her lack of progress on the wrong thing, without checking her compliance first.'
Now maybe that is me, I am eating correctly, although I see-saw about eating my calories back, so I am not strictly eating 1200, mostly because I don't fully understand about why I am eating them back
This week I have decided to try the 1600 MFP recommends for me, although I eat whole foods, including full dairy, not a fan of skinny. I eat mostly salad and fruit I am trialling brown rice this week also. I don't eat bread or sugar and mostly I am having tinned tuna or salmon, because generally I am not a great meat eater and this week I will add hard boiled egg to my salad for extra protein.
Generally, I feel I have more energy than I use to, as my diet was poor, nutritionally, in the past. As well I find I can't always eat the whole 1200 calories eating whole foods, it is so much more than I use to eat! So if I haven't made up to the 1600 I will be using optimal essentials healthy weight meal replacement. Which is derived from food and are foods in themselves with no synthetic vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, additives or preservatives
PS I am not a salesman lol
I am curious as to what difference it will make. I have found on the occasions I have eaten away from home, mostly at a BBQ or family roast, my meal has been around 600 cal when generally it is around 300-400 per meal.0 -
As well I find I can't always eat the whole 1200 calories eating whole foods, it is so much more than I use to eat!
In all honesty, your definition of whole foods must be off in some way. I struggle to stay under 1200, I only have one serving of rice carbs a day, am gluten and dairy free, and otherwise have lots of veggies, nuts and seafood. It's protein that is so so important with weight loss (just ordered some online!) and general health - stay away from red meat though, not good for you at all. Fish which is high in lots and LOTS of very good fats is reasonably high in calories as well, that is where half my daily fat comes from (sorry off topic).
Are you sure you are putting in the correct serving sizes? I have seen people put down 2 slices of bread as 100 calories which is ridiculous and wrong IMO, so it's important to check that out too! What does your daily diary look like?
Just remember, it's a lifestyle change, not a diet also, try quinoa! 0 -
Most days my plate is full of baby spinach and lettuce. I add 5 cherry tomatoes, a capsicum (pepper) lasts over a week, small amount of cucumber and I use lemon juice and greek yoghurt for dressing. I sometimes add bean shoots/sprouts, I don't eat bread, and rarely rice or pasta although this week I have had brown rice twice which I had with 100g piece of salmon and salsa verde chopped not pulsed. I rarely have red meat, and mostly I have a small tin of salmon or tuna with my salad. I make a fresh fruit salad for a snack. I have bought spelt pasta a couple of weeks ago but I haven't made anything to eat with it at the moment. Maybe I should use the term clean? instead of whole? I just meant unprocessed food in its natural state, including complex carbohydrates.0
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I have gone back to 1200 after 3 days, because many foods I am eating are low GI I found the 1500 was a lot to try and eat, and as I stayed fuller longer, I couldn't add extra in snacks either. The times I had no problem making the 1500 were when I went to a family BBQ and a family roast which included wine and lemonade as well as red meat for both dinner and lunch on the BBQ day.0
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Hey,
Ahhh from what you say it sounds like you are eating really well. I honestly have a ravenous appetite and I feel hungry all the time... i think it is honestly because I simply love eating. I love food so much, trying new recipes and trying new restaurants - my weekends revolve around where I will be eating out (this time fancy sashimi!) and weekdays also planning what I will eat.
I think if 1200 is what your body is telling you to eat, then that is what you should go with. Having a slow metabolism is a god send, it is widely shown to increase longevity (and reduce food bills hehe).
Good luck I think if you are having problem with weight still you should get your thyroid checked out. I have been hypothyroid for some years and it is really showing symptoms now I am trying to lose weight (google up some of the symptoms and get your GP to check your blood). If you have any questions about it feel free to message me I'm no Dr but I have some experience.
Kind regards0 -
You're my hero today!!0
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Thanks! I'm glad I could lay it all out there in a way that everyone can understand!0
