Alan Aragon and Brad Schoenfeld on Nutrient Timing

Chief_Rocka

This needs to go somewhere on MFP

In other news, Alan's middle name is "Albert"

http://www.jissn.com/content/pdf/1550-2783-10-5.pdf

lacurandera1

You know there's only about 4 people on MFP who have the attention span to read that, right?

psuLemon

Bump to save for later... any cliff notes, lol?

Chief_Rocka

Bump to save for later... any cliff notes, lol?

LOL, be prepared to be disappointed:

Distilling the data into firm, specific recommendations is difficult due to the inconsistency of
findings and scarcity of systematic investigations seeking to optimize pre- and/or postexercise
protein dosage and timing.

Even more so than with protein, carbohydrate dosage and timing relative to resistance
training is a gray area lacking cohesive data to form concrete recommendations.

SideSteel

Thanks for posting this one.

Yanicka1

Bump to save for later... any cliff notes, lol?

LOL, be prepared to be disappointed:

Distilling the data into firm, specific recommendations is difficult due to the inconsistency of
findings and scarcity of systematic investigations seeking to optimize pre- and/or postexercise
protein dosage and timing.

Even more so than with protein, carbohydrate dosage and timing relative to resistance
training is a gray area lacking cohesive data to form concrete recommendations.

so....they don't know LOL

Chief_Rocka

so....they don't know LOL

Yeah, pretty much. The way I see it, there's enough existing data that if there was something significant to be known, we would have picked up on it by now.

So have your postworkout shake or don't, any effects are probably going to be outweighed by the important stuff like genetics, training, overall diet, etc. anyway.

Sarauk2sf

Thanks for posting Rock.

mmapags

Thanks for posting!! The one take away that I think I got is that if you have eaten a balanced meal within a few hours of training, it pretty much makes the postworkout nutrition less critical. I think the gap was 3 to 4 hours between meals? Is that a fair assesment?

Fasted training changes the context and makes it more important relative to the catabolic effect of training.

AnvilHead

Thanks for the post - it's long, but a great read. I kind of skimmed through it and skipped to the conclusion, will read the entire paper later. Great stuff.

Chief_Rocka

Thanks for posting!! The one take away that I think I got is that if you have eaten a balanced meal within a few hours of training, it pretty much makes the postworkout nutrition less critical. I think the gap was 3 to 4 hours between meals? Is that a fair assesment?

That's a fair assessment. I would, however, preface that with: "If pre/post workout nutrition makes any difference, then this is what you should be looking at," since it's still not clear that it does.

CorvusCorax77

hmmm.... i eat when I'm hungry and make sure I hit my macros and work out when I can.

So what you're telling me is that I'm not screwing up completely?

Sounds good!

SideSteel

Thanks for posting!! The one take away that I think I got is that if you have eaten a balanced meal within a few hours of training, it pretty much makes the postworkout nutrition less critical. I think the gap was 3 to 4 hours between meals? Is that a fair assesment?

That's a fair assessment. I would, however, preface that with: "If pre/post workout nutrition makes any difference, then this is what you should be looking at," since it's still not clear that it does.

^ Agreed.

I view Alan's position somewhat like this:

We only know what it does in the short term under specific conditions. If you're concerned about absolutely maximizing any theoretical benefits that may or may not exist, then have X amount of protein before/after training.

Sort of a "cover your *kitten*" method of nutrient timing.

The nice part is this: I really think "most" people are eating something somewhere near the training bout. I've never calculated my peri-workout nutrition but since I put whey in my coffee and I eat a meal within a couple hours after training, I'm probably "not far off" from the recommendations in this study. The likely differences between what I'm doing and what the study recommends as a general guideline, are going to be between slim and zero in terms of output.

sjohnny

I didn't read the whole thing and only skimmed the conclusion but is my understanding correct that protein effectiveness wasn't greatly affected by combination with certain ratios of carbohydrates? In other words there wasn't huge support for the whole 4:1 ratio thing that gets preached so often. But it doesn't hurt anything so if you like it then rock on with your bad self.

mustgetmuscles1

Thanks for the post.

I may have changed my mind a bit after reading this. I think the C.Y.A. approach might be the better recommendation for most people looking to build muscle. If you are going to be eating the nutrients anyways, and it is not inconvenient, then timing intake around the workout may have an advantage.

Sarauk2sf

I didn't read the whole thing and only skimmed the conclusion but is my understanding correct that protein effectiveness wasn't greatly affected by combination with certain ratios of carbohydrates? In other words there wasn't huge support for the whole 4:1 ratio thing that gets preached so often. But it doesn't hurt anything so if you like it then rock on with your bad self.

That is my take on the prevailing research. The studies done on this are either looking at fasted training and/or endurance training.

Chief_Rocka

I didn't read the whole thing and only skimmed the conclusion but is my understanding correct that protein effectiveness wasn't greatly affected by combination with certain ratios of carbohydrates? In other words there wasn't huge support for the whole 4:1 ratio thing that gets preached so often. But it doesn't hurt anything so if you like it then rock on with your bad self.

correct:

For the goal of maximizing rates of muscle gain, these findings support the broader objective of meeting total daily carbohydrate need instead specifically timing its constituent doses.

sjohnny

Sweet. Skimming pays off again.

PlayerHatinDogooder

Bumping this for later.

CrankMeUp

Bumping this for later.

Thanks for the bump...bookmarking.

aakaakaak

Tipton et al. observed that a relatively small dose of EAA (6 g) taken immediately pre-exercise was able to elevate blood and muscle amino acid levels by roughly 130%, and these levels remained elevated for 2 hours after the exercise bout. Although this finding was subsequently challenged by Fujita et al., other research by Tipton et al. showed that the ingestion of 20 g whey taken immediately pre-exercise elevated muscular uptake of amino acids to 4.4 times pre-exercise resting levels during exercise, and did not return to baseline levels until 3 hours post-exercise. These data indicate that even minimal-to moderate pre-exercise EAA or high-quality protein taken immediately before resistance training is capable of sustaining amino acid delivery into the post-exercise period. Given this scenario, immediate post-exercise protein dosing for the aim of mitigating catabolism seems redundant.

Neat.

Eat protein before you lift, not after. You get the same effects of post workout protein, plus you have better performance while you're lifting. (I read this right, right?)

Edit: Science math:

With that said, high-quality protein dosed at 0.4–0.5 g/kg of LBM at both pre- and post-exercise is a simple, relatively fail-safe general guideline that reflects the current evidence showing a maximal acute anabolic effect of 20–40 g [53,84,85]. For example, someone with 70 kg of LBM would consume roughly 28–35 g protein in both the pre- and post exercise meal. Exceeding this would be have minimal detriment if any, whereas significantly under-shooting or neglecting it altogether would not maximize the anabolic response.

1) 0.4 to 0.5g of protein per kilogram of lean body mass within pre and post workout intake maximizes your anabolic response.
2) Pre workout protein intake alone appears to work better than post workout, but you should really split it between both pre and post.
3) Post workout protein does have an advantageous effect.

Edit 2: Carb intake showed no additional benefit within the workout window, but should be taken throughout the day. There is no carb spike related to workouts.

likitisplit

Thanks for the cliff notes.

mustgetmuscles1

They recently put out another review on protein timing.

http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/53/abstract

_John_

was psulemon even a moderator when this was originally posted?

thanks for the additional article mgm.

ryry_

Sweet. Skimming pays off again.

Somebody never saw office space

psuLemon

was psulemon even a moderator when this was originally posted?

thanks for the additional article mgm.

I was.. I have been a forum mod prior to this group being started. And keep in mind I am a forum mod not a group mod.