SL / SS on a Caloric Deficit?

Spokez70

I have been dong StrongLifts 5x5 for a couple of months now and I feel like I am getting pretty good results. So far after 26 workouts I have not missed any of the progressive sets, I've dropped 3 pounds on the scale, and if the tape measure is to be believed then I've also dropped 1.7% BF so far. My perception is I still have some ceiling room on most of the weight so I don't really forsee any kind of stall in progress in the short term. (Next 1-2 weeks)

I was thinking about switching over to Starting Strength instead so I bought the book and reading the section on nutrition I see Mark Rippetoe is pretty insistant that if you are not eating enough to grow then you are not really doing the program. It was also brought up on my other thread about going to failure:

5x5 could be a little much for someone in a caloric deficit as is, but that's another topic.

So I'm curious- are these type of programs appropriate for someone still trying to lose weight? Would I be better served doing something else? According to a DEXA scan I had done last week my BF is still up around 26.9% and I am trying to get down into the 15-16% range by next fall. As near as I can tell I'm eating around 300-400 calories below maintenance right now. If the only drawback is that at some point in the relatively near future my strength gains are going to slow to a crawl then I'm okay with that as long as I maintain LBM and loose fat. But if I'm creating a future problem or setting myself up for an injury then I would probably rethink things. Any advice would be appreciated.

tameko2

I will let Sara and SS answer your actual question but I thought I'd toss in that after seeing/talking to lots of people doing one of those programs, the ability to do them, make great strength gains, and eat a deficit seems to vary kind of wildly from person to person. I can't make any kind of lifting progress on more than a very VERY small deficit, I go all weak and sick feeling immediately (like I'll see loss of strength within a week and i'm not putting out really big numbers or anything), whereas other people do fine for ages on a deficit.

sjohnny

As long as you're feeling good and progressing then I'd say keep on rockin. At the point that you start feeling sh!tty or start missing lots of reps you might want to re-evaluate.

Lots of people are able to make pretty significant strenght gains at a caloric deficit. You won't grow much/any new muscle but you can build a good amount of strength without making new muscle fibers.

alanlmarshall

I read Starting Strength to say that those who are fat (his word) should maintain the same high calorie diet, but not more. In this context, one might not be really eating at a deficit, but just at less of a surplus.

Spokez70

I read Starting Strength to say that those who are fat (his word) should maintain the same high calorie diet, but not more. In this context, one might not be really eating at a deficit, but just at less of a surplus.

I agree he seems to be suggesting more of a body-recomp eating around maintenance level for 'fat guys' but I have repeatedly read elsewhere that's not the most efficient process- that it is better to cycle cutting and bulking.

Sarauk2sf

Tagging for myself and/or SideSteel to respond to.

However, my quick answer is yes.

opalescence

Bump.

I want to see the responses, I'm in the same boat and want to gain more knowledge.

Chief_Rocka

I think I'm the one that made that comment. I was saying that I think a person would hit a strength wall quicker with 5x5 then they would with 3x5. That was really just me nitpicking between the two programs.

It's a moot point anyhow, because I believe SL calls for you to shift to 3x5 at some point.

And never screw with your program when you're seeing awesome results. It's good to keep things you hear in the back of your mind, so you will have some tools to make adjustments when necessary, but real world results always trump mental *kitten*.

taso42

anecdotal: my strength has only gone up, regardless of weight loss or weight gain

SideSteel

I think they are both fine programs to use while in a caloric deficit.

Obviously context matters here but for reference I just put an RL friend on SL and he's in a caloric deficit and trying to lose fat. If he starts having strength issues I'll start looking at overall volume reduction as needed, but the skeleton of both programs are quite sound.

I do think it's reasonable to expect that

a) A beginner may keep increasing strength while losing weight.
b) A more advanced trainee may need to reduce volume or may simply stall out, but if they are not LOSING strength and they are an advanced athlete, I wouldn't be too concerned.

DontStopB_Leakin

I will let Sara and SS answer your actual question but I thought I'd toss in that after seeing/talking to lots of people doing one of those programs, the ability to do them, make great strength gains, and eat a deficit seems to vary kind of wildly from person to person. I can't make any kind of lifting progress on more than a very VERY small deficit, I go all weak and sick feeling immediately (like I'll see loss of strength within a week and i'm not putting out really big numbers or anything), whereas other people do fine for ages on a deficit.

^ This. Well, not this entirely, but I agree that it's merely a person to person sort of thing.

I'm the opposite of Tameko. The entire time I've done SL, I've been in a 1 lb to .5 lb a week deficit. My strength has improved dramatically, and I've yet to hit a complete "wall" on progress. I have plenty of energy and what not.


If you feel good, keep doing what you're doing. If you notice you're not making gains and you start feeling tired all the time, then it might be time to start upping your calorie intake.

tameko2

Dear Lea and Taso. Thanks for rubbing it in. :ohwell: Honestly, I probably need to get some kind of thyroid testing, my energy levels on any kind of deficit kind of hit the floor, so it might not be JUST the deficit.

Also

It's a moot point anyhow, because I believe SL calls for you to shift to 3x5 at some point.

Yes - 2 stalls then on the third deload you shift that exercise to 3x5 is the program as written.

In practice, I think a lot of people find that they hit a place where they think "I just can't do this volume anymore, the idea of squatting 25 times makes me want to weep like a little girl" and they drop to 3x5 even if they're not stalling, OR for exercises like the OHP where women can't add load as quickly they tend to end up just naturally identifying when its time to reduce.

Spokez70

...the idea of squatting 25 times makes me want to weep like a little girl...

Haha I can relate to that part for sure

LiftAllThePizzas

I read Starting Strength to say that those who are fat (his word) should maintain the same high calorie diet, but not more. In this context, one might not be really eating at a deficit, but just at less of a surplus.

I agree he seems to be suggesting more of a body-recomp eating around maintenance level for 'fat guys' but I have repeatedly read elsewhere that's not the most efficient process- that it is better to cycle cutting and bulking.

Just read SS recently too and it seemed like he was saying 'fat guys' would just naturally drop some fat in the process. I'd have to look again, but I think he also said that they'd eventually have to choose between dropping fat and gaining muscle. But it also seemed mainly aimed at teens who are in that natural muscle-building age where losing out on that potential would be harder to make up for.

I hit my first stall with the OHP, just deloaded from 90-80 lbs. It seemed like maybe I was losing strength on the deficit, looking back that 90 lbs was getting harder, not easier. I decided to try a bulk (TDEE+1000) for two weeks and then go back to a deficit (TDEE-500) and see what happens.

Sarauk2sf

My 2c here.


These programs are designed for people who are not on a cut. However, the first x number of cycles (the x will depend on the individual) will not be anywhere near a max potential as it takes a while to build up to that. A lot of the improvements are due to form as well as newbie neuromuscular adaptations.

The only real difference between a program at a deficit v maintenance/surplus is that the volume needs to be reduced due to lower energy and less than optimal recovery. This is basically achieved by dropping the sets to 3 as will tend to happen if you follow the program and start stalling in any event.

Layne Norton's PHAT I believe drops the sets from 5 on a bulk to 3 on a cut.


However, requoting Rock's comment for emphasis:

And never screw with your program when you're seeing awesome results. It's good to keep things you hear in the back of your mind, so you will have some tools to make adjustments when necessary, but real world results always trump mental *kitten*.

Spokez70

Thanks for excellent advice throughout.

My 2c is this group is awesome and so much better than asking questions in the fitness and exercise section it's not even funny.

sjohnny

My 2c is this group is awesome and so much better than asking questions in the fitness and exercise section it's not even funny.

Most definitely

butterfli7o

Hmmm...I'm currently doing SL5X5 and a 20% cut from TDEE...should I switch to 3X5?

I'm getting stronger but am repeatedly stalling big-time at the OHP. I also am not seeing huge changes in my body yet and it's been a little over three months.

Advice?

*Edited to add at this point I'm looking for body fat reduction.

Sarauk2sf

Hmmm...I'm currently doing SL5X5 and a 20% cut from TDEE...should I switch to 3X5?

I'm getting stronger but am repeatedly stalling big-time at the OHP. I also am not seeing huge changes in my body yet and it's been a little over three months.

Advice?

*Edited to add at this point I'm looking for body fat reduction.

OHP is a b!tch, especially for women. I would not take that as an indicator. Just follow the program.

You will not really see huge changes to your body from lifting at a deficit. A decrease in BF will make the largest change for anyone.

butterfli7o

Thanks. OHP is DEFINITELY a b!tch. A mean, dirty one....

juliebeannn

Dear Lea and Taso. Thanks for rubbing it in. :ohwell: Honestly, I probably need to get some kind of thyroid testing, my energy levels on any kind of deficit kind of hit the floor, so it might not be JUST the deficit.

Also

It's a moot point anyhow, because I believe SL calls for you to shift to 3x5 at some point.

Yes - 2 stalls then on the third deload you shift that exercise to 3x5 is the program as written.

In practice, I think a lot of people find that they hit a place where they think "I just can't do this volume anymore, the idea of squatting 25 times makes me want to weep like a little girl" and they drop to 3x5 even if they're not stalling, OR for exercises like the OHP where women can't add load as quickly they tend to end up just naturally identifying when its time to reduce.

you're not the only one! when i eat at a deficit my strength goes in the toilet. but, i'm actually in the process of getting my thyroid tested, also.

LoraF83

anecdotal: my strength has only gone up, regardless of weight loss or weight gain

This is my anecdotal evidence too. I eat at a small deficit (TDEE-15 to 20%).....sometimes at TDEE (I've not been super motivated to restrict lately). My strength was going up - no stalls, normal progression, etc. I've lost inches and a few pounds since starting Strong Lifts.

However, I will say that I was starting to feel like I was nearing the top of my range, so to speak. This was especially noticeable on OHP and rows. I think that a switch to 3x5 was in my near future. And I was already planning on switching to SS in a few months. Sadly....my fitness center has been out of commission for the last several weeks, so I'm going back into this on a serious deload. Which of course means that I've got some more time to put into to SL before I hit that ceiling again.

FluffyDogsRule

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You will not really see huge changes to your body from lifting at a deficit. A decrease in BF will make the largest change for anyone.
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isn't that the best way to decrease BF?? or are you saying it's more effective to essentially bulk then cut?