Need SS/SL5X5 Programming Help

BikerGirlElaine

Hi Sara, Sidesteel, and everyone,

I need some help with my training program.


My problem is: I can't squat the way that Rippetoe recommends and do it every other day.

My question is: Can I please get some suggestions for alternatives to squatting every other day with toes turned out?

Here's what I've thought of:

1. Squat Day One, alternative exercises Day Three, Squats Day Five, and so on (not sure if this would work, have to try)
2. Squat every time with toes straight ahead (also not sure it would work long-term)
3. 5/3/1 program
4. No squats at all, full body using alternatives every other day
5. Starting Strength but with two rest days (not excited about this one)
6. Squat & Deadlift Day One, Bench, OHP Day Two, Rest Day Three, Repeat
7. Ditch it and go back to my mishmash

I would like it if you all could discuss these ideas and any others you have.


Background to keep in mind:

I have had fibromyalgia for 9 years. The only way that it still affects my daily life is that I have never returned to the gym performance that I used to have. I usually need 2 days of recovery for any given body part, although I CAN work every other day if I don't go all out.

Before I got FM I was an avid weightlifter for about 6 years.

Today I also have arthritis and bone spurs in one of my knees that I have to accommodate. I've seen a doctor recently and I am clear to do any exercise I wish. The knee is "the worst he's ever seen in someone my age [49], but not the worst he's ever seen." And the dude was in his 70's so he's seen some knees lol.

Up until a few weeks ago I was sort of running my own training program which was a mishmash of a lot of things. When I posted here SS reiterated that I should try Stronglifts/Starting Strength. Didn't want to hear that ('cause I suspected it would be problematic for my situation and because it sounded boring) but I sucked it up, bought the book, read it thoroughly (so glad I did -- Rippetoe is awesome!).

I've spent 4 weeks working on my squat form. I'm not new to squatting, but before I had put it in the trashheap because it hurts my knee when I do it and I have to take extra rest days to get my knee back to workable condition. I'm pretty confident that my form is good, I had someone knowledgeable look at it yesterday.

What I've learned in the last several weeks:

I pretty sure that I can squat with my toes forward every other day without aggravating my knee. (yes I can get low enough that way, too.)

I think I could squat with my toes turned out every third day, but I can't do anything that works my knee, even walking, on the two rest days.

I'm fine with deadlifting and everything else in SS and SL.


I sure appreciate your suggestions.

Chief_Rocka

I would recommend just squatting however you feel comfortable doing it. Post a video in the form check thread to make sure there are no major issues going on.

ArroganceInStep

I like 3, personally.

tameko2

I would recommend just squatting however you feel comfortable doing it. Post a video in the form check thread to make sure there are no major issues going on.

^^^. This - squat however feels comfortable and let's you move increasing amounts of weights.

Also .... What do you mean by cant? I'm kinda thinking its not the toes out that's the actual issue. Post videos from several angles

BikerGirlElaine

Thanks all, I appreciate your answers so far.

Also .... What do you mean by cant? I'm kinda thinking its not the toes out that's the actual issue. Post videos from several angles

Well, my right knee is fine and my left one isn't LOL. It hurts slightly while I squat (nothing I can't live with), I can't come back up as fast on the left side, and then it swells up like a baseball and hurts a lot for the next 2 days. I've been living with it ever since I dislocated the kneecap a long time ago.

My sense is, and I'm no doc or anything, that there's some bone spur or something that gets in the way when I turn toes out that isn't a problem when toes are straight ahead.

I will get on the video.

TR0berts

I'd suggest either 5/3/1 or a variation of your number 6. Instead of Squats & Deads in one day, with OHP and Bench the next, do one of each lower body and upper body on one day, rest a day, and then do the other two. If you can, you may want to incorporate some additional work in the form of rows, pull/chin-ups, or power cleans. Or, maybe you could do the program as it is, but substitute lunges for squats on alternate days? It's not the same, but it works the same base muscle groups.

Just a couple of ideas to ponder.

ilovedeadlifts

I'd go with 2 or 3.


You can either try to squat the way that works for you, as often as you can.
Or do 5/3/1 and just squat once per week (and occasionally squat for deadlift assistance if you can handle it).

I've made good progress with 5/3/1 by squatting heavy once per week and doing lighter high rep stuff on my deadlift day.

BikerGirlElaine

Instead of Squats & Deads in one day, with OHP and Bench the next, do one of each lower body and upper body on one day, rest a day, and then do the other two.

Just to clarify, when I aggravate my knee, it needs two rest days. Squat on Monday, can't squat again (or do anything else that uses it either including my regular life) until Thursday. So I can either not aggravate it or only work it twice a week. The last three weeks it's been only two workouts each week. However, that also has me hobbling around with a bum knee for most all of the week, too.

Now that I put it that way it's a no brainer that I won't be squatting with my toes out, period. :bigsmile:

Will_Thrust_For_Candy

Sorry that you are having a tough time with that knee!

Now someone may correct me, and please do if required, but to my understanding there are many different squat stances. It seems to me that you would be just fine with a stance with your toes pointed forward, providing your feet are spaced the appropriate width apart (for some reason I'm thinking shoulder width here). I think if you are comfortable doing it that way then go for it!

sjohnny

Sorry that you are having a tough time with that knee!

Now someone may correct me, and please do if required, but to my understanding there are many different squat stances. It seems to me that you would be just fine with a stance with your toes pointed forward, providing your feet are spaced the appropriate width apart (for some reason I'm thinking shoulder width here). I think if you are comfortable doing it that way then go for it!

I read something recently (can't remember which thing I was reading) where the guy said to put your toes where ever they need to point so you can squat. He showed a whole bunch of pictures of people squatting chingos of weight with toes pointed in various directions and feet at varying widths.

Sarauk2sf

Sorry that you are having a tough time with that knee!

Now someone may correct me, and please do if required, but to my understanding there are many different squat stances. It seems to me that you would be just fine with a stance with your toes pointed forward, providing your feet are spaced the appropriate width apart (for some reason I'm thinking shoulder width here). I think if you are comfortable doing it that way then go for it!

Your toes should not point forward - they should be at an angle. The wider the stance, the more of an angle.

Extract from Starting Strength -

One occasionally sees powerlifters squatting with their toes pointing almost forward. Some of the really strong ones do this to increase the joint tightness and resultant rebound obtained by placing additional torque on the knee ligaments. This is a practice best left to very experienced powerlifters. For you, it will be very important to have all the bones of the legs and hips in the best position to generate force without being injured. Here is a way to see this relationship: sit in a chair with your knees slightly bent and your feet out in front of you, without pushing hard on the floor. Put your legs together, and note that your toes are pointing straight forward. Spread them out wide and note that your toes are pointing out. In both positions your feet assume a position parallel to your femur, and your knee is in an anatomically neutral position, with no twisting. As your knees point out, your toes point out. The wider the knees, the more the toes point out. As the knees widen, the femur rotates externally, and the tibia must follow it to keep the knee ligaments in normal anatomical position, and the toe points out more because it is attached to the end of the tibia. This anatomical relationship must be understood and respected, so that unnecessary knee injuries don't happen."

sjohnny

This is a practice best left to very experienced powerlifters

Which was probably what was being discussed in the deal I was reading. Context is everything.

BikerGirlElaine

Thanks everyone, bouncing this off of you all has helped me think it through.

I know that I am talking about a modification for my specific situation, I know this isn't what I'm supposed to be doing. But I also know that for 15+ years the best way for me to bend my knee has been with as little side force on it as possible. Reading SS, I thought that keeping my foot parallel with my thigh would give me 'as little side force as possible'. But it hasn't. Or maybe my definition of the best way to bend my knee without pain is what is lacking

Anyways, I'll keep experimenting and will get a video up for y'all to look at.

_SABOTEUR_

The wider the stance, the more of an angle.

Perhaps a narrower stance would be helpful. Have you experimented with your stance width to see if this makes any difference?

Will_Thrust_For_Candy

Sorry that you are having a tough time with that knee!

Now someone may correct me, and please do if required, but to my understanding there are many different squat stances. It seems to me that you would be just fine with a stance with your toes pointed forward, providing your feet are spaced the appropriate width apart (for some reason I'm thinking shoulder width here). I think if you are comfortable doing it that way then go for it!

Your toes should not point forward - they should be at an angle. The wider the stance, the more of an angle.

Extract from Starting Strength -

One occasionally sees powerlifters squatting with their toes pointing almost forward. Some of the really strong ones do this to increase the joint tightness and resultant rebound obtained by placing additional torque on the knee ligaments. This is a practice best left to very experienced powerlifters. For you, it will be very important to have all the bones of the legs and hips in the best position to generate force without being injured. Here is a way to see this relationship: sit in a chair with your knees slightly bent and your feet out in front of you, without pushing hard on the floor. Put your legs together, and note that your toes are pointing straight forward. Spread them out wide and note that your toes are pointing out. In both positions your feet assume a position parallel to your femur, and your knee is in an anatomically neutral position, with no twisting. As your knees point out, your toes point out. The wider the knees, the more the toes point out. As the knees widen, the femur rotates externally, and the tibia must follow it to keep the knee ligaments in normal anatomical position, and the toe points out more because it is attached to the end of the tibia. This anatomical relationship must be understood and respected, so that unnecessary knee injuries don't happen."

Yes, this is essentially what I was getting at. The toe position is in direct relation to how narrow/wide of a stance you are using. If using a narrower stance, your toes would not be absolutely straight forward, but much more so than if you are using a wider stance. Naturally, Rippetoe's explanation is far better than mine :laugh:

Sarauk2sf

A couple of suggestions where you can try to swap out the traditional back squats but still keep the routines pretty much intact:

- front squats - you have your knees facing to the front far more than with back squats (or at least I do) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aorXqDcqWco
- bulgarian split squats - https://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/bulgarian_split_squats&cr=

Both these, your feet face forward.

BikerGirlElaine

Thank you Sara! I hadn't thought of split squats. I may use one or the other of those from time to time.

And if you want, you can lock this thread now, I am good to go. Thanks !! :flowerforyou:

Sarauk2sf

Thank you.

Locking for now, but please PM either myself of SideSteel to unlock should you want to make a comment.