how much is your recovery affected on a deficit?

MonsterToBe

I've only been lifting since Jan 14. My lifting schedule is pretty intense and right now suits me very well. I've been aiming to eat slightly over my TDEE on lifting days and considerably under on my two rest days, and my weight has been stable for the last six weeks or so.

Previously, I had been eating far too little (a diabetes med trashed my appetite for awhile -- I'm no longer on it), and I needed to spend some time at maintenance to start feeling healthy again. I've made huge strength gains in the last two months and feel fantastic, but it's time for me to take the next step. I want to lose about 20 lbs. for the improvement in insulin sensitivity it will give me -- I expect at that point I will be able to get off the last med and be entirely back to diet and exercise control.

Here's my main problem: I don't want to have to cut back my lifting! I lift 5 days a week and I love it so much. I can deal with not building additional muscle while cutting, I just want to be able to keep doing what I'm doing. I'm worried that cutting will make it so I can't recover as quickly and I'll have to reduce my lifting. What's your experience with how cutting affects your recovery rate?

I'm thinking of picking two days a week to eat at actual TDEE for those days, and on the other days eating 20% below my average TDEE (average is ~2500). What do you think?

Sarauk2sf

It is unlikely you will be building any muscle appreciable muscle now as you have probably used up your 'newbie' gains by now - the main thing is to focus on maintaining what you have.

What does your lifting routine look like?

What are your average gross weekly calories split between the first month after your starting lifting and then the 2 months following?

If you have a reasonable deficit, especially at the stage you are at, you should not have recovery issues as long as your routine is appropriate. Five days a week is generally too much imo - beginners get a better 'bang for their buck' with a full body routine.

To put strength gains on a deficit into context - I continued to make gains all the time while on a deficit, which I was on for a year.

DopeItUp

If you're working sufficiently hard enough, I think 5 days is going to get pretty rough eventually. I've only been training for a year and I find that 3 days (M/W/F) can be too much sometimes. Especially if I used one of those days for heavy singles or something like that. Having said that, there's only one way to find out how you're affected. Try it and see what happens - scale back if needed.

MonsterToBe

Last tested 1RMs, a couple of weeks ago: squat 200 lbs, bench 115 lbs, deadlift 245 lbs

My routine:

lift intensity sets x reps

Monday:

squat 75% 3 x 6-8
Pendlay row: 8 RPE 3 x 5
OHP 8 RPE 3 x 5

Tuesday:

squat 80% 4 x 2 (focus is on speed)
bench 65% 3 x 3 (focus on technique)
deadlift 90% 3 x 1


Thursday:

bench 85% 4 x 2-4 (followed by a fifth set for max reps)
close-grip bench 8 RPE 3 x 5
OHP 8 RPE 3 x 5
deadlift 80% 8 x 1


Friday:

squat 85% 4 x 2-4 (followed by a fifth set for max reps)
Pendlay rows 8 RPE 3 x 5



Saturday:

squat 65% 3 x 3 (active recovery, technique)
bench 75% 3 x 6-8
deadlift 70% 15 x 1
OHP 6 RPE 3 x 3


If you want to see some of the lifts: https://www.youtube.com/user/Rebekahvids/videos
I typically only post the plus sets or PR vids to the channel, so you'll just have to trust me when I say that my form is better than that at lower weights! lol

I didn't plunge into a routine this intense right off the bat, and it's working well for me. I'm rarely truly sore, just a touch of DOMS here and there that goes away readily with a little activity. (The first time I squatted with just the empty bar, the next day I could barely walk, but since then everything's been fine! lol) I train in a powerlifting gym and have good people to help with programming, plus I've thoroughly read Starting Strength (more than once for some lifts) and Practical Programming. However, the people working with me only care about getting stronger and are already in good shape, so aren't much help to me on the question of losing a large chunk of weight like I need to while continuing to lift.

Sarauk2sf, I'm not quite certain how to find what you're asking about the calories. MFP's reports are less than stellar, in my opinion. However, I pulled a 90-day gross calorie report that might do:

https://plus.google.com/photos/114224523330355907755/albums/5856394978068095889?authkey=CJi52Iqr7JzHaA

Sarauk2sf

Bumping to the top so it does not get lost - will respond soon

MonsterToBe

Thanks. ) No huge rush, I have my first meet this weekend, will be adjusting my programmed weights to reflect whatever numbers I hit then, and will give myself a good week or two at the new weights before I start eating at a deficit.

ilovedeadlifts

For me personally 5x per week would be too much for me to handle while cutting. But different people handle volume better.
Try it, and if it's too much, reduce it down to 3-4 days per week.


When food is reduced and no longer becomes my main option for recovery, I try to focus on other things to help out.
Lots of foam rolling, stretching, moblity work.
Contrast showers.
epsom salt baths.
walking on off days.
getting enough sleep.

MonsterToBe

I really don't want you to be right, ilovedeadlift. (I reject your reality and substitute my own! Mythbusters.) Working out makes it easier for me to eat healthier than I used to, helps keep my blood sugar under control, and just overall makes me feel good. I really don't want to cut back. If I do find that it becomes too much, I'll probably try reducing the volume of individual workouts before I cut any days altogether... and maybe drop assistance exercises if need be.

I already do all the other things after heavy workouts, except contrast showers -- I assume that's switching from cold to hot etc.? I'll keep in mind that I may need to do them more frequently during a cut. Thanks for the tip. )

MonsterToBe

Bumping after a little over a week. Also, new 1RMs (different from official meet totals, these are the numbers that will be used for intensity planning purposes):

Squat 225
Bench 115 (my bench suuuuucks lol)
Deadlift 285

Sarauk2sf

Crap - sorry, got lost in the volume. Will get to a bit later.

MonsterToBe

Thanks! I know you're swamped, and I appreciate it. )

MonsterToBe

Bumping just because from your previous posts it seems like it would be helpful. )

Also, Sara, you mentioned you're thinking about doing a PL meet. I loved the experience, and I'm definitely glad I went before getting to the point where I could be a serious competitor. It feels very different from maxing in the gym, and I think it's worth going to one just to get accustomed to the environment so that your first really serious time it's easier to just focus on the lifts.

It was especially fun to be done with all my lifts and watching the heavier guys put up serious grinders with a room full of excited people screaming for them. :oD

MonsterToBe

Ok, so since my last post I was browsing through this forum and I have to say, I'm loving it more all the time. I found links to bodyrecomposition.com, and liked what I saw enough to investigate further. At this point I've read his flexible dieting "booklet" and the rapid fat loss one, too. I admit it tempts me a little, because I know losing the amount of fat his two weeks of hell promises is possible would very quickly improve my insulin resistance. However, I've worked too hard to improve my relationship with food to think it's worth the risk of triggering old self-denial patterns and cravings. The flexible dieting guidelines, on the other hand, fit very well with the strategies I've developed over the last six months, and unlike any other nutritional advice I've come across out there aside from the low glycemic index Dummies books (which are excellent despite making me cringe at having read a Dummies book!) that specifies a sensible way to modify the approach -- specifically the free meals and refeeds -- for diabetics.

So here's my tentative first stab at a plan.

BMR: ~1850
Daily energy expenditure estimates: M: 2700 T: 2700 W: 2300 Th: 2700 F:2700 S: 2700 S: 2100
Planned caloriic intake: M: 2500 T: 2000 W: 1850 Th: 2000 F: 2000 S: 2500 S: 1500
Other: M:"free meal" S: "refeed"
Weekly deficit: 3550

My lifting program is changing a bit. Essentially it's still what's listed above, but Monday and Saturday are now the heaviest lifting days (this is also tentative, as I haven't yet had a chance to discuss the proposed tweaks with my mentor and for all I know he may have a good reason for me not to make the changes). It makes sense to me to do the free meals and refeeds on the days I'll be working most intensely. I figure I'll give it a shot, and after a couple of weeks if I feel like it's affecting my lifting or recovery, I'll bump it up to a half-pound/week deficit instead and see how that goes.

I'm waffling back and forth about the 1500 calorie day on Sunday. But on Sundays I'm pretty inactive and tend not to eat breakfast, and given that Saturday and Monday are higher calorie days I don't think eating below my BMR on Sunday is likely to be an issue.

What do you think?

MonsterToBe

Grr@MFP... I had those nicely lined up in columns. :P

SideSteel

I need to get caught up on this but generally speaking there's nothing magical about bmr such that you can't eat under it.
Whether its advisable to eat under bmr is context dependent. I'm not yet caught up on your details to comment further at this point.

MonsterToBe

Well, here are the relevant details I can think of off the top of my head, which means I might forget something.

5'8", 205 lbs, bodyfat 28% (caliper estimate), BMR ~1850, LBM ~150 lbs

I train in a powerlifting gym 5 days/week (program is in one of the above posts), average weekly TDEE is ~2500. I use a Fitbit to track non-lifting activity, which is how I arrived at my burn estimates for the previous post. As I've been eating at TDEE for the last couple of months, it would seem the estimates are on target as I've been fluctuating between 204-209 quite steadily.

I didn't want to be cutting during the first couple of months of lifting, but it's time now. My primary goal is improved glucose control, and reducing bodyfat is the next step. But doing it slowly is fine because I am unwilling to cut back on lifting and miss out on its benefits -- no form of exercise improves insulin sensitivity as much as heavy lifting. Plus, it's FUN.

I'm sleepy. Did I leave out anything important? lol

Sarauk2sf

Quick echo of SideSteels comment and also to bump this as I want to reread through it and printing it will make that easier, which I can do easier tomorrow).

No issues with going under your BMR on your rest day at all.

MonsterToBe

Do let me know if there's anything I left out.

Sarauk2sf

Thanks. Just printed it so I can read through easier.

MonsterToBe

Thanks. The new program I started on yesterday is not terribly different than the one in this thread, though it is definitely more intense. Let me know if I should provide that, too, or if having the general idea of the sort of lifting I'm doing is sufficient -- the previous program certainly still gives that much info.

Sarauk2sf

How much are you looking to lose and what rate is comfortable for you? I am asking as you are obviously enjoying your lifting and want to compromise that as little as possible. Also, do you lift in the morning or later in the day, and if in the morning, so you lift fasted?

Please could you provide the new routine details.

MonsterToBe

1) I want to lose about 20 lbs this time around. That'll put me solidly back in diet-and-exercise-only diabetes control territory, and at that point I'll evaluate whether I want to lose any more or not. Based on how my body's been changing since starting to lift, I'll be at least a size smaller than I was last time I was at that weight!

2) Previously I was comfortable with a 2 lb/week loss, but I wasn't lifting yet, so I don't really know what rate I'll be comfortable with now.

3) I lift at 5:30 pm. I've been slowly trying to concentrate more protein into my meals earlier in the day and to shift the bulk of my carb intake (especially any refined carbs) towards after my lifting, because that's when I know it'll have the least impact on my blood sugar levels.

4) New routine:

Percentages are based on: squat 225 lbs, bench 115 lbs, deadlift 285 lbs
A + after a rep indicates that the final set is done for max reps, so 5 x 4+ is 4 sets of 4, followed by a max rep set

Monday:
Squat -- 75%, 3 x 8
Bench -- 75%, 3 x 8
OHP -- 8 RPE, 3 x 5

Tuesday:
Squat -- work up to a single at 90% or heavier
Deadlift -- 90%, 3 x 1
Close-grip bench -- 90% of the weight used on regular bench the day before, 5 x 4+
Pendlay rows -- 8 RPE, 3 x 5

Wednesday:
rest

Thursday:
Squat -- 85%, 5 x 4+
Deadlift -- 80%, 8 x 1
Bench -- 90%, 5 x 1 paused
Pendlay rows -- 8 RPE, 3 x 5

Friday:
Squat -- 80%, 3 x 3
Bench -- 85%, 5 x 4+
Close-grip bench -- 8 RPE, 3 x 5
OHP -- 8 RPE, 3 x 5

Saturday:
Squat -- 80%, 6+ x 2-4 (as many sets as possible while still getting at least 2 reps)
Deadlift -- 70%, 15 x 1
OHP - 6 RPE, 3 x 5

Sunday:
Imitate a well-cooked noodle

Sarauk2sf

I will respond in further detail re suggestions and intake - but you are squatting too much - 5 times a week is excessive, and with squatting 3 x in a row you will not have enough time for recovery/muscle repair. You also have some other lifts back t back. More is often not better.

MonsterToBe

I understand that's the prevailing idea, but I trust the people I'm working with. I train at the FSU Muscle Lab, which was created for Dr. Mike Zourdos' dissertation research on Daily Undulating Periodization (DUP -- dissertation abstract here: http://gradworks.umi.com/35/19/3519388.html and youtube video where he explains DUP principles is here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlSDeWrNZY0 ). DUP as applied to my program varies the volume and intensity day to day to allow for more frequency safely, providing more opportunity to practice the skill. Tuesday and Friday squats in my program are very low volume and allow for practice and active recovery.

Mike writes high-frequency undulating periodized programs for novices through high profile competitors (Layne Norton comes to mind). The powerlifting team at FSU was first formed from intermediate, recreationally trained lifters he recruited for his research, and using his programs they've become record-breaking competitors. Mike himself competes in the 74 and 83 kg classes, and squatted 501 lbs raw in the 2013 Arnolds ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4U8wq6G5js ).

I truly appreciate the words of caution; it just goes to show once again that you have in mind the best interests of those you lend your help to. ) But I hope I've illustrated that I'm not just diving into something born of ill-advised raw enthusiasm, but following a carefully tailored program written specifically for me and my interests by people who know what they're doing, get results, and do it safely -- only one person I know of there has hurt himself lifting, and it turned out that was because of a previously unnoticed physical imbalance in his hip structure that was aggravated over the years by the angle of low-bar squats. (And then the poor guy twisted an ankle going down stairs... lol)

Anyway, that's why my question really is about making sure my nutrition supports my lifting as well as possible while eating at a deficit, rather than the lifting program itself. I have to say thank you one more time, by the way, for the Lyle McDonald links I've found in this forum.

Sarauk2sf

Got it. I was not aware that you had a specific program written for you with powerlifting comps in mind.

Have you discussed with your trainers doing this routine on a deficit?

MonsterToBe

I have, but since they've generally been pretty active/fit all along, and when they do cut they don't have any major health concerns (like my diabetes) that require them to be so extremely careful about their macros, and they're in that young(ish, in some cases) male demographic where they can get away with foods that would TANK my eating habits, etc., the most advice they are comfortable giving is to learn all I can, be careful, and pay close attention to my recovery and speak up immediately about anything I notice because if it's affected I'll need to eat more or decrease my workouts.

Sarauk2sf

I would initially only slightly cutting your calories from the 2,500 (at your current TDEE) and let the increased training intensity 'take care' of some of the additional deficit. You can assess how that is looking with regards to weight loss in a couple of weeks. Depending on recovery and hunger, it will be fine to drop calories on your rest days, especially as you lift later in the day. I used to 'play around' with my weekly calories, depending on my lifting schedules - higher eating for squat and deadlift days, medium for OHP and bench and low for rest days. You should play around with it and see what works best for you.

Example: current TDEE - 2,500 x 7 = 17,500 (due to increased lifting, this will actually be lower than your current TDEE)

2 heavy days = 2,800 x 2 = 5,600
3 medium days = 2,500 x 3 = 7,500
2 rest days = 1,600 x 2 = 3,200
Total = 16,300

Deficit = 17.500 - 16,300 = 1,200 plus the additional increase from the lifting will probably get you to somewhere around 1/2lb a week.

Obviously, play around with them to suit your energy needs and preference.

I would also recommend getting a bit higher protein than the usual 1g per lb/lbm due to the frequency of your work outs. I would recommend between 1.25 - 1.5g per lb/lbm, assuming you have no risks for kidney issues.

DopeItUp

Goddamn, that is one aggressive training routine. 5 days of squats a week plus 3 days of deadlifts? Lots of heavy singles, doubles and triples too? And you're going to do it on a deficit? My back hurts just thinking about it.

MonsterToBe

I would initially only slightly cutting your calories from the 2,500 (at your current TDEE) and let the increased training intensity 'take care' of some of the additional deficit. You can assess how that is looking with regards to weight loss in a couple of weeks.

Oh, that makes more sense than my initial inclination, which was to cut more and then make the deficit smaller if it affected me negatively. I'll tweak my goals accordingly tomorrow and take the opposite approach, of starting with a small deficit and if everything's fine, increasing it a bit after awhile and seeing how that goes. Thanks!

Depending on recovery and hunger, it will be fine to drop calories on your rest days, especially as you lift later in the day. I used to 'play around' with my weekly calories, depending on my lifting schedules - higher eating for squat and deadlift days, medium for OHP and bench and low for rest days. You should play around with it and see what works best for you.

I like this idea, too. So far I definitely know I want more calories on Tuesday! By the end of the week, I'll know for sure which ones feel the heaviest.

Do you yourself do free meals and low-fat carb refeeds as Lyle McDonald advocates? It makes a lot of sense to me, and i'm thinking of doing that on the highest cal days (because of also being the most intense workout days).

I would also recommend getting a bit higher protein than the usual 1g per lb/lbm due to the frequency of your work outs. I would recommend between 1.25 - 1.5g per lb/lbm, assuming you have no risks for kidney issues.

I did the calculations for this (LBM = 148 lbs), and then paged back through my diary and am glad to say I've been in or even above this range pretty consistently. Dramatically upping my protein intake was one of the biggest factors in getting my relationship with food to a healthier place. )

MonsterToBe

Goddamn, that is one aggressive training routine. 5 days of squats a week plus 3 days of deadlifts? Lots of heavy singles, doubles and triples too? And you're going to do it on a deficit? My back hurts just thinking about it.

Yes it certainly is! -- Although perhaps not as devastating as it looks at first. ) For instance, I'm looking forward to tomorrow as a light squat day. I still get to squat, which makes me happy, but hitting three triples at 80% isn't going to be much more than a full-body warmup before the rest of tomorrow attacks my upper body. And today's 90% paused singles on bench was so little volume that although I got to practice heavy pauses (because mine SUCK lol), it wasn't very taxing and I expect to feel fresh and ready for tomorrow's intense bench workout.

Deadlifts... I love deadlifts... the first week I did them for three days, you bet my back was sore! But after that first week, I'd adapted to the frequency and since then, I get tired out (and wired at the same time -- deadlifts make me feel like a supercharged noodle lol) but no more than a hint of DOMS.

I have been eating at a deficit this week because I decided it was time I get started and then worry about changing my calorie targets if Sara's answers indicated it would be wise (which they did). Interestingly, so far I'm still recovering for the next workout just fine and feeling great, but I'm sleeping MUCH more!! This is a happy thing, as I often have had trouble sleeping enough. )

Sarauk2sf

To be honest, I would not bother with refeeds. The real purpose of refeeds is to get more carbs every now and again to keep your metabolism ticking along while cutting. They are only important, and this differs individual to individual, if you are very lean, and become more important the more you have to drop calories. In any event, with the variable intake - you are effectively doing this anyway.

I only started doing refeeds when I had to get a bit low on calories and was sub 20% BF - but I also varied my calories as I noted above. The issue I had was that when on a low weekly average, I did not have much wiggle room so my 'high' days ended up not very high. I was varying between about 1,500 and 1,900 towards the end of my cut so had a refeed once a week. I actually only had to go that low for a few weeks so only did refeeds a couple of times. All the time before that I just varied calories based on lifting and did not bother with refeeds as my high days were at about 2,300 in any event, so I am not sure if I react positively to refeeds of not to be honest. I know I did not need them when I was at a higher BF% than about 22%.