The Inactivity of Atheists on MFP

soldier4242

I think it is great that there is a group for us on MFP. I was even more surprised that there were several and this group in particular has 203 members. Even if only 100 were active that is a lot of people to be chatting with in this group. So the question is why are we so silent?

I know I am not the only one to notice that we don't talk with each other very much. My hypothesis is that we just don't have much conflict. We don't have a lot of people making posts that aren't well thought out. The arguments are typically pretty solid and the points are usually very well framed. We read them and post where we agree and disagree. The conversations are normally pretty productive but they are short.

One potential way to stimulate conversation would be if we started taking more devil's advocacy positions. Basically that is when you bring up an argument not because you support it personally but rather because you are simply trying to illuminate a different point of view. Now I am sure it is likely that many of you have already tried this and it would be a band-aid solution at best.

Another possibility is if we started creating topics that did not necessarily focus on atheism in general but rather the issue that surround us. Stem cell research is a scientific topic which the majority of us are not qualified to discuss but its advancement has been met with resistance from the religious community. I am sure with a bit of thought we could come up with more examples in that same vein.

The only reason I am mentioning it is that I am just so sick and tired of all the people thanking god for helping them lose weight and then telling me that if I would like to have success like they have had all I have to do is turn over my life to Jesus. I just want to have people that I can talk to every once in a while that actually agree with me. People who think that prayer is a complete waste of time. People who think that if the god of the bible was real he would be a monster not worthy of worship. People who value scientific progress and people who think that doing something nice for someone is a kind of good all by itself without needing some sort of divine arbiter to make it so.

I know this was a lot to write out and it will be a lot to read, for that I am sorry but I just needed to get it all out. If you would like an agnostic atheist on your friends list send me a message with your friends request. If you actually did read this I thank you for time.

ay1978pa

I am with you on this.

ay1978pa

I thought about it and here are my random thoughts.

One. If you are in this group, your relationship with religion is pretty obvious. You probably don't need me or anyone else to endorse your view of life.

Secondly, I am very unlikely to go to a radical religious group and try to convey my view of life onto its members. (a) it would be a waste of time since they are typically not very receptive to logic, and (b) it would put me on the same line with the bible bashers shoving their believes down my throat.

Thirdly, the target audience of any potential discussion, in my mind, would be the "closeted" atheists, or those disillusioned in religion but not aware of the fact that there are other options. How do you reach those audiences? I honestly don't know.

Edit: Just re-read this and realized how it could be misinterpreted. I am not saying discussions are not needed or are a waste of time, just expressing my reasons for inactivity.

perfekta

I agree. I quickly glance at the group and see if there are any new threads started, or new comments, but beyond that don't spend much time in here.

I think you're right that there isn't more discussion because we all pretty much agree.

I am with you on the people thanking God for their weightloss, and another pet peeve of mine-when the first line in their profile is something to the extent of "OMG I LOVE JESUS SO MUCH HE'S MY LORD AND SAVIOR GLORY BE TO HIM" etc. I've even found myself not congratulating people on success stories that have profiles like that (I'm a total hater).

mfpcopine

I think it is great that there is a group for us on MFP. I was even more surprised that there were several and this group in particular has 203 members. Even if only 100 were active that is a lot of people to be chatting with in this group. So the question is why are we so silent?

I know I am not the only one to notice that we don't talk with each other very much. My hypothesis is that we just don't have much conflict. We don't have a lot of people making posts that aren't well thought out. The arguments are typically pretty solid and the points are usually very well framed. We read them and post where we agree and disagree. The conversations are normally pretty productive but they are short.

One potential way to stimulate conversation would be if we started taking more devil's advocacy positions. Basically that is when you bring up an argument not because you support it personally but rather because you are simply trying to illuminate a different point of view. Now I am sure it is likely that many of you have already tried this and it would be a band-aid solution at best.

Another possibility is if we started creating topics that did not necessarily focus on atheism in general but rather the issue that surround us. Stem cell research is a scientific topic which the majority of us are not qualified to discuss but its advancement has been met with resistance from the religious community. I am sure with a bit of thought we could come up with more examples in that same vein.

The only reason I am mentioning it is that I am just so sick and tired of all the people thanking god for helping them lose weight and then telling me that if I would like to have success like they have had all I have to do is turn over my life to Jesus. I just want to have people that I can talk to every once in a while that actually agree with me. People who think that prayer is a complete waste of time. People who think that if the god of the bible was real he would be a monster not worthy of worship. People who value scientific progress and people who think that doing something nice for someone is a kind of good all by itself without needing some sort of divine arbiter to make it so.

I know this was a lot to write out and it will be a lot to read, for that I am sorry but I just needed to get it all out. If you would like an agnostic atheist on your friends list send me a message with your friends request. If you actually did read this I thank you for time.

Thanks for this post, I enjoyed reading it. I can always use suggestions on how to semi-gracefully deal with people who foist their religious beliefs on me. I'm old enough to realize that it's better to avoid alienating people, but sometimes conflict is necessary.

When I joined this group I did notice a marked increase in the thoughtfulness of the posts.

mfpcopine

Another potential topic of discussion would be what people like us can do in our daily lives to show that being skeptical and demanding proof does not mean we lack compassion. After the shooting at the elementary school in Connecticut the New York Times ran a good piece by an atheist who said she would like to see atheists figure out a way to provide support to people who've suffered trauma. Religions typically offer comfort.

There must be ways to say, We care and we are not going to tell you that this horrible thing befell you because it was God's plan.

perfekta

Another potential topic of discussion would be what people like us can do in our daily lives to show that being skeptical and demanding proof does not mean we lack compassion. After the shooting at the elementary school in Connecticut the New York Times ran a good piece by an atheist who said she would like to see atheists figure out a way to provide support to people who've suffered trauma. Religions typically offer comfort.

There must be ways to say, We care and we are not going to tell you that this horrible thing befell you because it was God's plan.

Perfect example It was hard to see all those posts on Facebook and the like about how "THE SHOOTER DIDN'T HAVE GOD IN THEIR LIFE OBVIOUSLY". Barf.

soldier4242

Another potential topic of discussion would be what people like us can do in our daily lives to show that being skeptical and demanding proof does not mean we lack compassion. After the shooting at the elementary school in Connecticut the New York Times ran a good piece by an atheist who said she would like to see atheists figure out a way to provide support to people who've suffered trauma. Religions typically offer comfort.

There must be ways to say, We care and we are not going to tell you that this horrible thing befell you because it was God's plan.

The real hurdle we have on this one is that the religious don't let a little think like reality get in the way of what they say. They have the advantage of being able to claim magical things in an effort to make their comfort seem more potent. They can claim that the children who were murdered are now in some sort of divine land of joy and comfort. They essentially turn their death in to this beautiful thing where the loss of the parent is only temporary. One of the big problems I have with this interpretation of the events is it makes the shooter looks like he did the children a favor. Now he is a benefactor rather than the monster he actually is.

Conversely all we have to offer is a sincere sorrow for their loss but it is an actual loss. These children had their young lives cut short by a maniac with no concern for the well being of those around him. His crimes were abominations and he deserved to be killed for what he did and honors should be bestowed upon the one who killed him. But this does little to comfort the heart of a parent who has just lost their child. In that state of mind I can understand why they would want to believe the theist even if they have no evidence.

soldier4242

I thought about it and here are my random thoughts.

One. If you are in this group, your relationship with religion is pretty obvious. You probably don't need me or anyone else to endorse your view of life.

Secondly, I am very unlikely to go to a radical religious group and try to convey my view of life onto its members. (a) it would be a waste of time since they are typically not very receptive to logic, and (b) it would put me on the same line with the bible bashers shoving their believes down my throat.

Thirdly, the target audience of any potential discussion, in my mind, would be the "closeted" atheists, or those disillusioned in religion but not aware of the fact that there are other options. How do you reach those audiences? I honestly don't know.

Edit: Just re-read this and realized how it could be misinterpreted. I am not saying discussions are not needed or are a waste of time, just expressing my reasons for inactivity.

I understand what you mean. The truth is we don't need someone to endorse our ways of life. People who are claiming to believe wholeheartedly in something they know is not true are going to be searching for others to validate their unfounded beliefs. We have a kind of strength in that way. We don't congregate every week to reaffirm the lack of evidence for the existence of god because we are content to wait until the evidence manifests in the same way the evidence for everything we believe has.

This strength has many benefits in our daily lives as it prevents us from wasting out time, money and energy trying to appease things that may not even be real. The problem is our silence gives believers the false impression that there simply aren't that many atheists so we are simply a nuisance that can be marginalized. Also the less reasonable atheist are not inclined to remain so silent. They will speak out about issues that are of little to no importance to the rest of us. For instance that complete tool who decided to go after Ray Comfort because his way of the master ministry was giving out bumper stickers that make fun of atheists. Honestly his hot button was bumper stickers. Anyway I think we could all benefit from a more vibrant dialogue on topics that the majority of us actually care about.

mfpcopine

I thought about it and here are my random thoughts.

One. If you are in this group, your relationship with religion is pretty obvious. You probably don't need me or anyone else to endorse your view of life.

Secondly, I am very unlikely to go to a radical religious group and try to convey my view of life onto its members. (a) it would be a waste of time since they are typically not very receptive to logic, and (b) it would put me on the same line with the bible bashers shoving their believes down my throat.

Thirdly, the target audience of any potential discussion, in my mind, would be the "closeted" atheists, or those disillusioned in religion but not aware of the fact that there are other options. How do you reach those audiences? I honestly don't know.

Edit: Just re-read this and realized how it could be misinterpreted. I am not saying discussions are not needed or are a waste of time, just expressing my reasons for inactivity.

I understand what you mean. The truth is we don't need someone to endorse our ways of life. People who are claiming to believe wholeheartedly in something they know is not true are going to be searching for others to validate their unfounded beliefs. We have a kind of strength in that way. We don't congregate every week to reaffirm the lack of evidence for the existence of god because we are content to wait until the evidence manifests in the same way the evidence for everything we believe has.

This strength has many benefits in our daily lives as it prevents us from wasting out time, money and energy trying to appease things that may not even be real. The problem is our silence gives believers the false impression that there simply aren't that many atheists so we are simply a nuisance that can be marginalized. Also the less reasonable atheist are not inclined to remain so silent. They will speak out about issues that are of little to no importance to the rest of us. For instance that complete tool who decided to go after Ray Comfort because his way of the master ministry was giving out bumper stickers that make fun of atheists. Honestly his hot button was bumper stickers. Anyway I think we could all benefit from a more vibrant dialogue on topics that the majority of us actually care about.

I'm not familiar with this bumper sticker incident, but I don't think it's okay to mock atheists. That fellow is doing more than I am. I think the small issues matter too. For example, I don't think that the American Pledge of Allegiance should include the words "under God."

ay1978pa

I don't know much about the bumper stiker incident either. An I completely agree that atheists shouldn't be made fun of. The truth is there are many more of us than is apparent. If I may draw an analogy with LGBT, if we "come out" and make out presence known, hopefully more and more people will realize that atheists are not just marginalized weirdos but your friend, brother, uncle, coworker etc. I just don't always know how to do it without coming across as a hater.

Another thought on the Pledge of Allegiance. I lived in the UK for a while which is officially a Christian country with the Queen being the head of the church as well as the head of state. Despite this fact, there is very little religious propaganda and intolerance (with the exception of the whole N. Ireland thing) and the church minds it's business and never interferes with politics. At the same time in the US, which is suppose to be a secular country, religion is a huge part of politics.

soldier4242

Were it not for freedom of speech we would not even be able to talk about the fact that we don't believe at all. David Hume was an atheist just like all of us but in his day it was a crime punishable by death. It is because of people like him that today we have the ability to speak our minds openly.

Back in 2008 a man saw a bumper sticker that said "April First National Atheists Day" underneath it was psalms 14:1 "The fool in his heart has said there is not God." His response was to notify Ray Comfort and the way of the master ministries that he intended to pursue legal action against them.

The issue I take with this is that this bumper sticker is protected free speech. It does not matter that I am a part of the group that it is making fun of. I have seen plenty of bumper stickers mocking religion and I would not want those taken away either. If the government were to get involved in what bumper stickers we are allowed to put on our car then it won't be a huge stretch for them to say what we can have on our shirts or in our news paper.

Yet this guy is calling himself champion for atheist rights but he isn't. If anything he is hamstringing the rest of us by making us look like hypocrites that tout the values of free speech only when it benefits us and a bunch of uptight jerks that can't take a joke.

soldier4242

Now that I think about it I guess I am saying that it is ok to mock atheists. I do not see any reason that we should be off the table and protected from mockery. Ubiquitous free speech means that we can mock unfounded and baseless claims to our hearts content but that also means that they get to mock us as well. It is imperative that we have a two way street.

ay1978pa

Now that I think about it I guess I am saying that it is ok to mock atheists. I do not see any reason that we should be off the table and protected from mockery. Ubiquitous free speech means that we can mock unfounded and baseless claims to our hearts content but that also means that they get to mock us as well. It is imperative that we have a two way street.

Makes sense. I don't have a problem with my view of the world being questioned or debated. Unfortunately this doesn't hold true with religion. Any religious cult enjoys the unwritten immunity from such debates. You can question my political affiliation, my view on taxes, immigration, what sports team I support, whatever. We can sit down and discuss all of those topics and still stay friends. But don't you dare questioning my religious beliefs. That's protected from logic and cannot be doubted.

soldier4242

Now that I think about it I guess I am saying that it is ok to mock atheists. I do not see any reason that we should be off the table and protected from mockery. Ubiquitous free speech means that we can mock unfounded and baseless claims to our hearts content but that also means that they get to mock us as well. It is imperative that we have a two way street.

Makes sense. I don't have a problem with my view of the world being questioned or debated. Unfortunately this doesn't hold true with religion. Any religious cult enjoys the unwritten immunity from such debates. You can question my political affiliation, my view on taxes, immigration, what sports team I support, whatever. We can sit down and discuss all of those topics and still stay friends. But don't you dare questioning my religious beliefs. That's protected from logic and cannot be doubted.

Correct, and I find that to be quite telling. Things that are true have nothing to fear from investigation. If I were to claim that I drive a Saturn Aura you could investigate to your heart's desire and every single piece of evidence you would find would lead you to the conclusion that it is true. I do in fact drive a Saturn Aura. Now if I were to claim that I ride a unicorn to work I would have to protect that claim from investigation because none of the physical evidence you would find would support that claim.

Annie_ga

I've actually thought about what to say on this site, but I don't come up with much. Sorry for that. How about we become friends with like views who support each other (so humanitarian) in our other shared goal of weight loss - exercise gain and healthy lifestyle (most of the time)? Have a great day, all.

BinaryPulsar

Another potential topic of discussion would be what people like us can do in our daily lives to show that being skeptical and demanding proof does not mean we lack compassion. After the shooting at the elementary school in Connecticut the New York Times ran a good piece by an atheist who said she would like to see atheists figure out a way to provide support to people who've suffered trauma. Religions typically offer comfort.

There must be ways to say, We care and we are not going to tell you that this horrible thing befell you because it was God's plan.

Yeah, this is a big and important issue.

On the one hand, when I see religious friends turning to "God" in times of loss, I don't want to be hurtful to them at that time. So, I accept that is how they deal with it. I can't help that a part of me feels sad that they somehow find a way to feel that tragedy and death is somehow for the best (I guess a type of denial). But, I figure that I also don't know what their frame of mind is to be able to see it that way.

Either way, I support changing people's perceptions to see that intelligence, inquiry, looking deeply into things, questioning things, being truthful and honest, not in denial, etc...do not have a negative influence on compassion and the ability to be heartfelt and loving and to have empathy (a very real human trait).

Concerning atheism, the biggest issues we face are not so much inside of us, but figuring out how we interact in the world, with others.

If I think of any other topic ideas to explore, I'll post again later.

soldier4242

Another potential topic of discussion would be what people like us can do in our daily lives to show that being skeptical and demanding proof does not mean we lack compassion. After the shooting at the elementary school in Connecticut the New York Times ran a good piece by an atheist who said she would like to see atheists figure out a way to provide support to people who've suffered trauma. Religions typically offer comfort.

There must be ways to say, We care and we are not going to tell you that this horrible thing befell you because it was God's plan.

Yeah, this is a big and important issue.

On the one hand, when I see religious friends turning to "God" in times of loss, I don't want to be hurtful to them at that time. So, I accept that is how they deal with it. I can't help that a part of me feels sad that they somehow find a way to feel that tragedy and death is somehow for the best (I guess a type of denial). But, I figure that I also don't know what their frame of mind is to be able to see it that way.

Either way, I support changing people's perceptions to see that intelligence, inquiry, looking deeply into things, questioning things, being truthful and honest, not in denial, etc...do not have a negative influence on compassion and the ability to be heartfelt and loving and to have empathy (a very real human trait).

Concerning atheism, the biggest issues we face are not so much inside of us, but figuring out how we interact in the world, with others.

If I think of any other topic ideas to explore, I'll post again later.

I guess in some small sense I take comfort in the fact that if they are turning to prayer to help them deal with their issue and if there is no actual god on the other end of that prayer than that means that they are dealing with it themselves. Ironically the fact that they do deal with it themselves after the prayer they will give the credit to something outside of themselves. That is the real issue.

I was brought up in the catholic church and I have got to tell you it is not at all uncommon for the priest to get up and do an entire sermon about how weak and useless humans are. You hear that often enough you start to believe it and suddenly you find yourself turning to whatever they tell you will give you the strength to do what you want/need to do.