Refeeding and Leptin Levels Question

cedarghost

Ok, please have a little patience as I feel the need to tell a long boring story before I ask my question in order to clarify why I am asking...

I have been religiously tracking my calorie intake for over 200 days now and I have noticed something really interesting. If I am at a deficit, I will typically drop weight pretty steadily for about 3 weeks and then it begins to slow and eventually damned near stops sometime around 8 weeks of cutting usually.I stay above my BMR, so we're talking no more than a pound a week when cutting.
The first time this happened about 6 months ago I had been plateaued for about 6 weeks, fluctuating between gaiing and losing the same 2 or 3 pounds of what I assume now was water weight.
So one weekend I said phuck it, and while out to dinner with the wife, ordered and ate a lot more than I normally would, around 500 cals more than my tdee. I logged it, ate right at tdee the next day and logged that then weighed in that weekend on Sunday (which is my normal weighing day) and had lost 4 pounds......"ok, so I somehow managed to shed some water weight", I thought and jumped back on my diet the following Monday.
Something cool happened the next weeks weigh in. I lost a little over a pound. And did so for the next 3 or 4 weeks and then started getting stuck again. After a TON of research I began learning about leptin levels and seeing all kinds of stuff on refeeding to raise leptin levels. So after a couple more weeks of almost no loss, I incorporated another "Cheat day" and my weight loss kicked in again.
That's my long boring story. Now for my question.
Refeeding obviously works for me and I have been studying the effects of leptin on weight loss, but is there a certain type of macro-nutrient content I should aim for when refeeding? It seems everything I am looking at is pointing towards quality carbs and laying off fruits as fructose apparently doesn't do a great job spiking leptin. Can someone with experience confirm this?

Chief_Rocka

Refeeding will raise leptin levels, but when you reestablish a deficit, leptin levels drop back down just as quickly.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/8/2685.short
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8866554

Sarauk2sf

Here is also a discussion about whooshes:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/of-whooshes-and-squishy-fat.html

SideSteel

Refeeding will raise leptin levels, but when you reestablish a deficit, leptin levels drop back down just as quickly.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/8/2685.short
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8866554

^ This is my understanding too, although I haven't looked at the above studies.

Conversation piece on Leptin here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=131578173&page=1

I'd be curious whether or not there are any downstream effects on hormones even though Leptin quickly drops back down.

There seem to be a few very intelligent trainers/coaches that advocate refeeds (Helms, Norton), so it's quite possible (anecdote, I know) that there are non-leptin related effects that benefit from it outside of performance.

cedarghost

Those are good studies and I understand that leptin starts to drop quickly once you start cutting again. One thing I don't understand in the second study is the statement "Small amounts of infused glucose equal to the estimated contribution of gluconeogenesis, which was sufficient to prevent rise in ketogenesis, also prevented a fall in leptin".
This falls right in line with my question as gluconeogenesis is defined as " a metabolic pathway that results in the generation of glucose from NON-CARBOHYDRATE carbon substrates......"
So in this study is it indirectly suggesting that obtaining calories from non-carb sources prevents (or at least slows) the fall of leptin levels? And if so, then what macro-nutrients provide the best calorie source for a refeed?
And then there is the question of metabolism. Leptin levels may fall just as quickly when I start cutting after a refeed, but my metabolism definitely stays up for a while longer before it begins to taper off agin.

SideSteel

Those are good studies and I understand that leptin starts to drop quickly once you start cutting again. One thing I don't understand in the second study is the statement "Small amounts of infused glucose equal to the estimated contribution of gluconeogenesis, which was sufficient to prevent rise in ketogenesis, also prevented a fall in leptin".
This falls right in line with my question as gluconeogenesis is defined as " a metabolic pathway that results in the generation of glucose from NON-CARBOHYDRATE carbon substrates......"
So in this study is it indirectly suggesting that obtaining calories from non-carb sources prevents (or at least slows) the fall of leptin levels? And if so, then what macro-nutrients provide the best calorie source for a refeed?
And then there is the question of metabolism. Leptin levels may fall just as quickly when I start cutting after a refeed, but my metabolism definitely stays up for a while longer before it begins to taper off agin.

Generally while refeeding you'll primarily crank up carbohydrate and reduce fat.

jonnythan

Timely topic. I just posted a question asking about weight drops following periods of increased caloric intake. These are great links.

cedarghost

Refeeding will raise leptin levels, but when you reestablish a deficit, leptin levels drop back down just as quickly.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/8/2685.short
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8866554

^ This is my understanding too, although I haven't looked at the above studies.

Conversation piece on Leptin here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=131578173&page=1

I'd be curious whether or not there are any downstream effects on hormones even though Leptin quickly drops back down.

There seem to be a few very intelligent trainers/coaches that advocate refeeds (Helms, Norton), so it's quite possible (anecdote, I know) that there are non-leptin related effects that benefit from it outside of performance.

Now that article is a little confusing. If what he says is true (that leptin levels has no effect on metabolic rate) then perhaps there is another hormone that is effected by re-feeding. And by re-feeding, I mean eating at or slightly above maintenance for a short period of time.
The thing is, I KNOW it works for me. When my weight loss slows, I eat at maintenance or slightly above for a day or two, then go back to a slight cut and I start dropping weight again. My question/concern is to learn is there a certain macro-nutrient ratio that is optimal during this "break phase" as a lot of body builders advocate carbs, carbs carbs.

mustgetmuscles1

Here is a thread i started with the same question. Some really good links on it.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/820526-thoughts-information-on-refeeds?hl=information+refeeds

It seems to me that leptin is not what causes the fat loss by itself. It really signals the body that you are being well fed and that normal metabolism can resume.

cedarghost

Those are good studies and I understand that leptin starts to drop quickly once you start cutting again. One thing I don't understand in the second study is the statement "Small amounts of infused glucose equal to the estimated contribution of gluconeogenesis, which was sufficient to prevent rise in ketogenesis, also prevented a fall in leptin".
This falls right in line with my question as gluconeogenesis is defined as " a metabolic pathway that results in the generation of glucose from NON-CARBOHYDRATE carbon substrates......"
So in this study is it indirectly suggesting that obtaining calories from non-carb sources prevents (or at least slows) the fall of leptin levels? And if so, then what macro-nutrients provide the best calorie source for a refeed?
And then there is the question of metabolism. Leptin levels may fall just as quickly when I start cutting after a refeed, but my metabolism definitely stays up for a while longer before it begins to taper off agin.

Generally while refeeding you'll primarily crank up carbohydrate and reduce fat.

EXACTLY what I was trying to confirm. Great links too guys. The more I learn about this stuff, the more I realize how much more there is to learn....

cedarghost

Here is a thread i started with the same question. Some really good links on it.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/820526-thoughts-information-on-refeeds?hl=information+refeeds

Reading it now.

SideSteel

Refeeding will raise leptin levels, but when you reestablish a deficit, leptin levels drop back down just as quickly.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/8/2685.short
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8866554

^ This is my understanding too, although I haven't looked at the above studies.

Conversation piece on Leptin here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=131578173&page=1

I'd be curious whether or not there are any downstream effects on hormones even though Leptin quickly drops back down.

There seem to be a few very intelligent trainers/coaches that advocate refeeds (Helms, Norton), so it's quite possible (anecdote, I know) that there are non-leptin related effects that benefit from it outside of performance.

Now that article is a little confusing. If what he says is true (that leptin levels has no effect on metabolic rate) then perhaps there is another hormone that is effected by re-feeding. And by re-feeding, I mean eating at or slightly above maintenance for a short period of time.
The thing is, I KNOW it works for me. When my weight loss slows, I eat at maintenance or slightly above for a day or two, then go back to a slight cut and I start dropping weight again. My question/concern is to learn is there a certain macro-nutrient ratio that is optimal during this "break phase" as a lot of body builders advocate carbs, carbs carbs.

The conversation piece I linked is just opinions from people obviously, but I still find it worth the read.

Bolded part above would seem pretty plausible and I would have to think that refeeds do play a role in assisting fat loss -- I think the point of the conversation was that it's just not primarily due to Leptin directly.

cedarghost

The conversation piece I linked is just opinions from people obviously, but I still find it worth the read.

Bolded part above would seem pretty plausible and I would have to think that refeeds do play a role in assisting fat loss -- I think the point of the conversation was that it's just not primarily due to Leptin directly.

Makes 100% sense. Thanks.

Chief_Rocka

The conversation piece I linked is just opinions from people obviously, but I still find it worth the read.

Bolded part above would seem pretty plausible and I would have to think that refeeds do play a role in assisting fat loss -- I think the point of the conversation was that it's just not primarily due to Leptin directly.

Makes 100% sense. Thanks.

I apologize if I seemed to be implying that refeeds were pointless, I wasn't saying that at all.

The reason I think it's important to recognize that Leptin isn't the primary player here is that when you think it is, you start doing silly *kitten* like having a "spike day" every week.

SideSteel

The conversation piece I linked is just opinions from people obviously, but I still find it worth the read.

Bolded part above would seem pretty plausible and I would have to think that refeeds do play a role in assisting fat loss -- I think the point of the conversation was that it's just not primarily due to Leptin directly.

Makes 100% sense. Thanks.

I apologize if I seemed to be implying that refeeds were pointless, I wasn't saying that at all.

The reason I think it's important to recognize that Leptin isn't the primary player here is that when you think it is, you start doing silly *kitten* like having a "spike day" every week.

Just for what it's worth, I didn't think you were suggesting that they were pointless. I think you were suggesting that Leptin is not the primary factor in their effectiveness.

cedarghost

The conversation piece I linked is just opinions from people obviously, but I still find it worth the read.

Bolded part above would seem pretty plausible and I would have to think that refeeds do play a role in assisting fat loss -- I think the point of the conversation was that it's just not primarily due to Leptin directly.

Makes 100% sense. Thanks.

I apologize if I seemed to be implying that refeeds were pointless, I wasn't saying that at all.

The reason I think it's important to recognize that Leptin isn't the primary player here is that when you think it is, you start doing silly *kitten* like having a "spike day" every week.

Same here and yes, I am talking about a diet break for a few days to a week every couple of months or so, depending on when loss stalls out. And by break, I mean eating at maintenance. And this definitely cleared up a lot of confusion for me. I know a diet break works for me, I am just working to understand how it works with the goal of optimizing it. The stuff you linked helped a lot.

nexangelus

Here is also a discussion about whooshes:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/of-whooshes-and-squishy-fat.html

Thanks for this...was wondering why my fat had gone all weird, thought it was just me and was sincerely hoping that is was because it was dropping off...YAY!

icmuse

Here is also a discussion about whooshes:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/of-whooshes-and-squishy-fat.html

^^^ fascinating, bump!

MonsterToBe

Those are good studies and I understand that leptin starts to drop quickly once you start cutting again. One thing I don't understand in the second study is the statement "Small amounts of infused glucose equal to the estimated contribution of gluconeogenesis, which was sufficient to prevent rise in ketogenesis, also prevented a fall in leptin".
This falls right in line with my question as gluconeogenesis is defined as " a metabolic pathway that results in the generation of glucose from NON-CARBOHYDRATE carbon substrates......"
So in this study is it indirectly suggesting that obtaining calories from non-carb sources prevents (or at least slows) the fall of leptin levels? And if so, then what macro-nutrients provide the best calorie source for a refeed?
And then there is the question of metabolism. Leptin levels may fall just as quickly when I start cutting after a refeed, but my metabolism definitely stays up for a while longer before it begins to taper off agin.

No, that's not what it's suggesting. Gluconeogenesis takes place whenever blood sugar levels fall to a certain point, and involves the liver's release of glucagon to tell the body to execute a process that creates new glucose from stored materials so that you don't die from a lack of enough glucose in your bloodstream to fuel your body's basic functions. Those stored materials, the non-carbohydrate carbon substrates referred to in the abstract of the study, are already present in the body and don't have anything to do with what macronutrients have been consumed. The portion of the study you're asking about involved participants fasting, but receiving infusions of glucose that mimicked the amount that would have ordinarily been created by gluconeogenesis. Researchers were apparently (I didn't read the article, just the abstract) testing whether the fall in leptin levels was directly attributable to the falling blood glucose level, and because the infusions did indeed prevent the rise in ketogenesis and fall in leptin that were seen in fasting participants who did not receive infusions, that appears to be the case. I don't know whether they address the possibility that the fall in leptin is a response to the *change* in blood glucose level within a period of time rather than any absolute value, because it's 1:00 am and this is as analytic as I feel like being right now. Don't wanna read the study yet. )

DaniH826

I'm about to eat at/about current (rather than goal) TDEE for a week or so, and this is something that's definitely on my radar. Very timely. Thank you!

As well, women, who have more problems with water retention, seem to have bigger issues with stalls and whooshes than men.

Ain't that the ever-so-fricken truth.