Improving Marathon times - Update

pabscabs

Hi,

Just a big thank you to everyone who contributed to this tread last time. I have my mileage at only around the 40+ mile a week mark but consistently so and I'm still slowly increasing. It's been about 2 months now I've been following the advice.

I ran my first official 10K of the year last weekend.

Won't lie I was hungover!! Hey I'm a forty year old bloke away from kids it was bound to happen. I regret NOTHING.

So I was pretty amazed when I saw the effect of the increased mileage in knocking 5 minutes off my 10K time. Comfortably bring me from the low fifty minute zone into the forties. I have another 10K in 2 weeks and I think not hungover I could probably knock another another minute off.

I had no doubt increasing my weekly mileage would improve times on longer races don't understand how it has had such an effect on lower distances. But not complaining. Thank you again to EVERYONE who contributed. It woke me up and I'm really seeing results.

scottb81

I had no doubt increasing my weekly mileage would improve times on longer races don't understand how it has had such an effect on lower distances.

It's all about increased aerobic capacity. This explains it pretty well.

Athletic Training by Arthur Lydiard, available free at http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/pdfs/al_training_eng.pdf

arc918

The best that ever happened to my half marathons? Marathon training!

It makes sense when you think about it. My first couple halfs, my long run mileage probably topped out at 12-13. Add some 14, 16, 18, 20+ milers into the mix and guess what? Going 13.1 is now pretty easy.

CarsonRuns

Hot damn! Well done.

Yes, it's all about the aerobic engine.

Reikofs

I run a bunch of halfs now after running 2-3 marathons a year. I run over 13 miles consistently even when I'm not training for a marathon. The longer runs help as well as tempo runs and speed work. I used to put in 60+ miles per week but more in the 35 to 40 range. It's about quality too. I'm 47 and I have cut down on my miles since it takes longer to recover but I still run about a 1:40 half. Great job on your 10K. Racing is key in seeing where you are at.

pabscabs

Looking forward to the first half race I have coming up in the next month. My mileage is still increasing and to be honest a lot of the runs are actually tempo runs although I don't deliberately set out that way.

@Reikofs - I have found DENIAL and beer are the keys to my recovery from runs. I like to think of it as carb loading for the next race. :happy:

CarsonRuns

Looking forward to the first half race I have coming up in the next month. My mileage is still increasing and to be honest a lot of the runs are actually tempo runs although I don't deliberately set out that way.

But are they REALLY tempo runs? Are they run at your Lactate Threshold, loosely defined as a pace at which you could run for about an hour before falling apart? More than likely, they are closer to Aerobic Threshold, which is still a good workout, but doesn't really give you any more benefit that a regular easy run done at 65% to 75% of Max HR, and you recover faster from the slower run AND you are running for more minutes, so even more benefit. Then, you are fully recovered and ready to go for the true tempo efforts, which when run at LT, also benefit your AT, so you kill two birds with one stone.

pabscabs

Sounds like they are not tempo runs. By that definition it sounds something like a 10K race could be a tempo run?

I run pretty much every weekday either in or out of work sometimes both. I had thought 30/45 seconds faster than normal at a sustained pace was a tempo run but I'm never at the level you describe. Usually if I don't have the bike I can run home again (althought a bit slower)

So a true tempo run for me I think would be around 10K race pace something like 7:45/ 7:50 a mile. Or am I wrong AGAIN?

I can see now why they would be pretty gruelling on the body if you were to do them regularly (i.e more than once a week/fortnight). So by reducing the pace on the regular runs and adding a proper tempo run you would get more benefit.

I have learnt more on this forum in three posts than I have learned in 3 years reading everything I could find on the internet on running. I could have wasted years wondering why I wasn't improving.

CarsonRuns

Sounds like they are not tempo runs. By that definition it sounds something like a 10K race could be a tempo run?

I run pretty much every weekday either in or out of work sometimes both. I had thought 30/45 seconds faster than normal at a sustained pace was a tempo run but I'm never at the level you describe. Usually if I don't have the bike I can run home again (althought a bit slower)

So a true tempo run for me I think would be around 10K race pace something like 7:45/ 7:50 a mile. Or am I wrong AGAIN?

I can see now why they would be pretty gruelling on the body if you were to do them regularly (i.e more than once a week/fortnight). So by reducing the pace on the regular runs and adding a proper tempo run you would get more benefit.

I have learnt more on this forum in three posts than I have learned in 3 years reading everything I could find on the internet on running. I could have wasted years wondering why I wasn't improving.

Yes, you are exactly right. For some people, 10K pace is their AT pace (those that take about an hour to complete a 10K at maximal effort). For faster runners, AT pace may be closer to HM race pace.

Now that doesn't mean that you should run 10K for a tempo run, it just means that is the pace you should run. A classic Daniels tempo run (Jack Daniels, Daniels Running Formula. Get this book) last for 20 minutes. So, you may take a 6 mile run, do the first couple miles as a warm up, then do 20 minutes at your 10K pace (or your AT pace as calculated in Daniels book), then complete the run at your easy run pace for cool down. As you start to race longer distances, you'll incorporate longer tempo runs. During my marathon training, I did tempo efforts of up to about 5 miles, if memory serves me correctly.

scottb81

The purpose of an easy run is simply to build aerobic capacity. You will not build it any faster at 85% max than you will at 75% max. So there is no reason to run easy runs harder than you need to. In fact, running them harder than necessary is detrimental because it will leave you more tired which will reduce your ability to run hard on quality days and also may require more recovery time reducing your weekly volume.

pabscabs

I think I got it. Thanks lads. Jack Daniels does running as well!!

I will get the book and stop bugging you. Cheers.

CarsonRuns

I think I got it. Thanks lads. Jack Daniels does running as well!!

I will get the book and stop bugging you. Cheers.

Yes get the book. No, don't stop asking questions. Not a bother at all.

kenleyj

The best that ever happened to my half marathons? Marathon training!

It makes sense when you think about it. My first couple halfs, my long run mileage probably topped out at 12-13. Add some 14, 16, 18, 20+ milers into the mix and guess what? Going 13.1 is now pretty easy.

The same here with my last half marathon campaign. I peaked at about 65-70 miles per week, my long run was 16 miles, and through out the week, I would run a 10 mile tempo run. On my 15 mile long run, I was scheduled to run the first mile 130-140 bpm, then 13 @ 160 bpm, then a cool down mile. That is one of the many runs that made my half marathon great. You put in the hard hard work during training, and the race is the fruit of labor.

kenleyj

The purpose of an easy run is simply to build aerobic capacity. You will not build it any faster at 85% max than you will at 75% max. So there is no reason to run easy runs harder than you need to. In fact, running them harder than necessary is detrimental because it will leave you more tired which will reduce your ability to run hard on quality days and also may require more recovery time reducing your weekly volume.

Over 75% of my weekly mileage during the first part of the build up is aerobic. No matter how slow I think I am going, I am building my aerobic engine (carson runs). Then 4-6 weeks into it, still, 40-50% weekly mileage is at an aerobic state (130-140). From all of the hard workouts, I am seeing that my pace is slowly increasing in the aerobic state.