Also on IPOARM but wanted your opinion...! thanks

twostepsforward

I see the topic of whether Chalean extreme is cardio or lifting beaten all over the boards (without anyone ever agreeing!) but please could someone help me to relate it to heybales sheet?

On the simple set up tab, I need to know whether it is considered circuit or lifting?

3 days a week (in the first month anyway) its 3 days of about 35min lifting, 1 set of each exercise max 12 reps. Compound moves - I take this to mean using more than one muscle group ie. squat with shoulder press - sorry, I am rubbish with the terminology!)

other 2 days its interval training 30-40 mins - definitely cardio!

I just dont know whether to put the 3 days in circuit or strength - I thought it was heavy lifting as its heavy (to me!) But I read somewhere that because its only one set of anything it doesn't count and its circuit training....? I'm lost!

Thanks!

heybales

I understand it does indeed do lifting style - sets, reps, and rests. Or at least that is possible, or optional, or different parts of the program make it more like that.

Since the lifting level gets less calories because lifting indeed burns less calories than cardio, the rests are needed.

So some turn their lifting (and make it not as effective either) by doing cardio in-between to keep their HR up. That merely causes the muscle to not recover enough for pushing as heavy a load as could be done. Now it's circuit training basically.

So if you take those 1-3 min rests, it's lifting.
If you make it 30 seconds or less or throw cardio in during the rest, it's high cardio.

You got the idea of compound and isolation right. It's not though the idea of putting 2 lifts together, but merely what 1 lift uses for the movement.
Picture doing a curl with dumbbell - bicep only, 1 joint only needed, isolation.
Picture doing a bent-over row with dumbbell - bicep, shoulder, back, 2 joints needed, compound.

I'd suggest rethinking the interval training on non-lifting rest days.
The improvement from exercise comes actually from the rest and repair to better handle the exercise load next time it's experienced.
If you take the day after lifting that would be major repair time, and throw another heavy load on the same muscles, you just killed at worst, or prevented at best, full recovery and repair.
You also will tire the muscles out, making the next day lifting not as effective. You only get the full benefit from lifting if you use fresh muscles. Tired muscles doesn't cause nearly the same response.

Cardio if done day after lifting should be no higher than the Active Recovery HR zone, which is usually not intense enough to add another load to the muscles that requires repair. But it provides blood flow.

See the spreadsheet HRM tab for this common routine advice, and finding your zones. Needs your resting HR, and estimate of HRmax. Still high cardio level though, unless you just choose to walk.

And heavy lifting indeed means heavy to you, with the last few reps of last set bordering on almost bad form, meaning maxed out. You can accomplish the same effect on 1 set of up to 15 reps max, just means it'll be even heavier weight compared to 5x5 or 3x10. Over 20 reps you moved into endurance though, not lifting really with same positive effects.
You can probably modify their program to hit those suggestions.

Probably the confusion with Chalean is perhaps it has different levels or workout types, moving between lifting and circuit training type, or optional instructions on how you can make it one way or another.
You'll still see benefits from circuit type training, just different than lifting. And the amount burned during the session is different too.

You got it.

Mom2M_and_O

You got the idea of compound and isolation right. It's not though the idea of putting 2 lifts together, but merely what 1 lift uses for the movement.
Picture doing a curl with dumbbell - bicep only, 1 joint only needed, isolation.
Picture doing a bent-over row with dumbbell - bicep, shoulder, back, 2 joints needed, compound.

I'd suggest rethinking the interval training on non-lifting rest days.
The improvement from exercise comes actually from the rest and repair to better handle the exercise load next time it's experienced.
If you take the day after lifting that would be major repair time, and throw another heavy load on the same muscles, you just killed at worst, or prevented at best, full recovery and repair.
You also will tire the muscles out, making the next day lifting not as effective. You only get the full benefit from lifting if you use fresh muscles. Tired muscles doesn't cause nearly the same response.

Cardio if done day after lifting should be no higher than the Active Recovery HR zone, which is usually not intense enough to add another load to the muscles that requires repair. But it provides blood flow.

I do CLX, also, and she definitely incorporates both isolation and compound exactly the way you described it, often within the same workout. I find there is usually a 1 minute or so break from the time I finish a set of exercises and pick up weights to start the next one. The only time there is less than that is when she gives a 10-sec break to do an extra set of super slow 3 reps.

Now, for the cardio in her set, there are two kinds. One is "Burn Intervals" which alternates endurance exercise with light weights (3-5 lbs, like a ton of reps of bicep curls, 2 minutes of tricep, shoulder raises, rows, squats/lunges), with a higher intensity cardio interval like boxing, speed skates, plyo, etc. The other cardio workout is higher intensity cardio with intervals like in the first workout but without the light-weight endurance exercises thrown in.

Are you saying that by not taking a rest day between the strength-training workouts and instead doing these cardio sessions that it may be working against what we've done on the strength days? If so, what kind of cardio is better? I'm REALLY interested because I LOVE the three strength days but am not such a fan of the cardio but know I need some cardio thrown in somewhere. I'd rather find something else to do if it's all the same or better. But if the design of her cardio is better for me (with all the lunges, squats, etc), then I'll suck it up and do those or something similar like P90X Plyometrics.

heybales

I do CLX, also, and she definitely incorporates both isolation and compound exactly the way you described it, often within the same workout. I find there is usually a 1 minute or so break from the time I finish a set of exercises and pick up weights to start the next one. The only time there is less than that is when she gives a 10-sec break to do an extra set of super slow 3 reps.

Now, for the cardio in her set, there are two kinds. One is "Burn Intervals" which alternates endurance exercise with light weights (3-5 lbs, like a ton of reps of bicep curls, 2 minutes of tricep, shoulder raises, rows, squats/lunges), with a higher intensity cardio interval like boxing, speed skates, plyo, etc. The other cardio workout is higher intensity cardio with intervals like in the first workout but without the light-weight endurance exercises thrown in.

Are you saying that by not taking a rest day between the strength-training workouts and instead doing these cardio sessions that it may be working against what we've done on the strength days? If so, what kind of cardio is better? I'm REALLY interested because I LOVE the three strength days but am not such a fan of the cardio but know I need some cardio thrown in somewhere. I'd rather find something else to do if it's all the same or better. But if the design of her cardio is better for me (with all the lunges, squats, etc), then I'll suck it up and do those or something similar like P90X Plyometrics.

So my example of good heavy to failure or almost bent-over row, using bicep, shoulder, and back.

If the next day she has you doing a ton of curls, that's no good for recovery.

And then if the day after that is attempting to do good heavy upright rows, which is also bicep, I'd believe your biceps will give out before you gave your shoulders as good a workout as they could have gotten.

You can still experience some improvement if starting out, but not nearly as much as you could otherwise. And when you become more advanced then you will get more narrow margin for error, you could see no improvements or moving backwards actually.

I've seen the posts complaining about that happening pretty quick though, like someone was already doing almost daily HIIT, or attempting to anyway. Then they merely added in lifting 3 x weekly, and kept that cardio on what should have been rest days.
The see improvements for a month, and then nothing.
Drop the HIIT, and the lifting keeps making progress.

That Active Recovery HR zone, aka fat-burning zone, is really a great indicator. Because if the muscle is tired and under repair, any use will usually shoot the HR up higher than normal, even if it doesn't feel that bad to you, that response saves it.
So that means a certain pace and incline walk on the treadmill would normally give HR say 120.
Day after lifting though, you find out it causes HR 135 at same pace/incline. And that is actually within the correct zone.
Or perhaps a favorite workout now hits a higher HR well out of zone, and you have to back down the intensity.

So I'll bet you that cardio routine you described, focusing on specific muscles that were probably repairing from day before, would raise up HR. Probably to beyond that zone pretty quick. With little means to calm it down. In which case, might as well skip that and do something else.

Now, what she may do to get around that, is the lifting day program isn't really supposed to be as intense as normal lifting routine. Which means not enough to repair from, and you don't really make it tired and unable to lift well.

twostepsforward

Are you saying that by not taking a rest day between the strength-training workouts and instead doing these cardio sessions that it may be working against what we've done on the strength days? If so, what kind of cardio is better? I'm REALLY interested because I LOVE the three strength days but am not such a fan of the cardio but know I need some cardio thrown in somewhere. I'd rather find something else to do if it's all the same or better. But if the design of her cardio is better for me (with all the lunges, squats, etc), then I'll suck it up and do those or something similar like P90X Plyometrics.

this!

I am with you on this one! I haaaate plyo type exercises and cardio but I really enjoy the weights. I don't think I would get past day one on something like P90X, which is why I like this so much. I want to do something else instead but its hard knowing whats going to be enough intensity to be worth doing at all! Is brisk walking enough and how much does one need? Does brisk walking and making sure you hit 10000 (or more) steps cut it?

Thanks for another informed and reasonable response Heybales - every time I search for info on this it seems to turn out into a punch up over whether its strength or cardio! As Mom2M_and_O pointed out, there's about 1 min-ish between exercise sets resting, no jumping around or anything, just changing the weights on my dumbbells. So we can fairly confidently assume its strength training then?

Mom2M_and_O

Now, what she may do to get around that, is the lifting day program isn't really supposed to be as intense as normal lifting routine. Which means not enough to repair from, and you don't really make it tired and unable to lift well.

That I don't know. I gather there are nuances that make the lifting in this program different from other programs that some on MFP would sanction as true lifting programs (which actually gets us back to the original question as to whether this is considered lifting or circuit :laugh:) All I know is that I related exactly to what you first said about lifting heavy enough to the point that form suffers and having a rest in between with no cardio.

I did notice when I first started the 3rd month of the program that one strength-workout was very bicep/tricep-heavy, and the next night when trying to do the endurance workout, my arms felt tired a lot quicker than usual -- not quite able to endure like before. To be fair to CLX, her suggested workout calendar does have a rest day between the first scheduled workout of the week and that endurance workout. But I modified the schedule so that my rest days fell differently, and there weren't many options considering I didn't want two actual strength workouts on back-to-back nights. So I ended up with strength/endurance/strength/interval on back-to-back nights. I know I don't have to stick to the same nightly schedule, but it sure helps me stay consistently on track if I do.

Maybe for a few weeks I'll give some "less-intensive" cardio a try. I sure am not a fan of the HIIT-style stuff anyway. I don't mind being tired from a good workout, but plum worn out is a whole other thing.

heybales

I am with you on this one! I haaaate plyo type exercises and cardio but I really enjoy the weights. I don't think I would get past day one on something like P90X, which is why I like this so much. I want to do something else instead but its hard knowing whats going to be enough intensity to be worth doing at all! Is brisk walking enough and how much does one need? Does brisk walking and making sure you hit 10000 (or more) steps cut it?

Thanks for another informed and reasonable response Heybales - every time I search for info on this it seems to turn out into a punch up over whether its strength or cardio! As Mom2M_and_O pointed out, there's about 1 min-ish between exercise sets resting, no jumping around or anything, just changing the weights on my dumbbells. So we can fairly confidently assume its strength training then?

Walking to get blood flow going is about the only useful thing you really would benefit from. But, it's not intense enough likely to be truly a aerobic cardio benefit, if you are really desiring that. But it's still useful, even if just walking doesn't seem like enough.

If you also want your 3 x weekly for 20 min each cardio workout for heart health, walking fast enough or enough incline to get into that Recovery HR zone. If you want to jog slow, still stay in that zone.

if you don't need that right now, and you actually are getting benefits to cardio from the lifting too, walking at whatever you want is just fine too. Swing arms around a bit like swimming to get blood flow into those muscles too.
Or swim slow too.

This is truly letting your cardio support your focus of lifting.

And it sounds like the lifting days would indeed classify as lifting. Grunt it out to failure and you are there.

Me on the other hand, with outdoor season coming on, like the lifting to support and not interfere with at least 1 cardio workout, long bike ride at whatever intensity I can do. So different focus. But I also don't want that long ride to make a lifting session a waste of time either. If I'm going to do it and spend the time and energy, I want it done well.

It is interesting to test yourself on some weeks and skip a workout or only walk, and see how the next day session goes.

You can easily get in to this state of a the lifting is going until failure, too tired to get one more good lift in. But unless you can compare, you never be able to tell well if because of being tired, or heavy load.

I will mention though, if you have HRM, even though the calorie burn estimate for lifting is totally invalid, you can somewhat discern by how high the HR gets. If tired muscle, you can't push hard enough for HR to go as high as if on fresh muscles.

You can even discern this starting to happen within a workout session. First few lifts are good, last ones are feeling good too because you fail, but the HR says it wasn't the same effort.