Over Training... 2x Week?

FrnkLft

Hey guys,

So far my routine has been this:

Day 1: Chest
Day 2: Back
Day 3: Shoulders
Day 4: Legs
Day 5: Arms
Day 6: Forearms/Calves + Cardio
Day 7: Rest, Cardio

4-6 Reps, 3 Sets, 4 exercies per day.


But I'm considering doing this, because I've got a lot in me. No worries about nutrition, it's fine. Would I be over training? I would still work to keep total workout time to 45min-1hr

Day: 1 Chest Shoulders Triceps
Day: 2 Back Biceps
Day: 3 Legs Calves
Day: 4 Chest Shoulders Triceps
Day: 5 Back Biceps
Day: 6 Legs Calves
Day: 7 Rest Cardio

My legs days are like rest days for my upper body, and i may or may not do cardio on day 7 depending, probably spinning or something like that.

SideSteel

Hey guys,

So far my routine has been this:

Day 1: Chest
Day 2: Back
Day 3: Shoulders
Day 4: Legs
Day 5: Arms
Day 6: Forearms/Calves + Cardio
Day 7: Rest, Cardio

4-6 Reps, 3 Sets, 4 exercies per day.


But I'm considering doing this, because I've got a lot in me. No worries about nutrition, it's fine. Would I be over training? I would still work to keep total workout time to 45min-1hr

Day: 1 Chest Shoulders Triceps
Day: 2 Back Biceps
Day: 3 Legs Calves
Day: 4 Chest Shoulders Triceps
Day: 5 Back Biceps
Day: 6 Legs Calves
Day: 7 Rest Cardio

My legs days are like rest days for my upper body, and i may or may not do cardio on day 7 depending, probably spinning or something like that.

I think overtraining is a very individual thing and it depends on intensity, volume, and frequency. I am starting to believe that it's not really possible to identify overtraining by looking at someone's split.

You'll notice that bodypart splits tend to be very high volume per muscle but they are also very low frequency per bodypart. Full body programs are low volume but very high frequency per bodypart (everything gets hit 3/week typically).

If you're concerned, give your new method a try and monitor progress, recovery, and how you feel and make adjustments as needed.

Lastly, if your goal is to hit everything 2/week you could consider doing an upper/lower 4xweek to accomplish this.

Chief_Rocka

It doesn't sound like you understand what overtraining is. I would recommend reading Lyle McDonald's series on the subject: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/overtraining-overreaching-and-all-the-rest-part-1.html

faster_than_flash

I also know a few guys who do "push" and "pull" days - which focus on the type of motion. It seems like they overlap a lot of muscles as well. I would have to agree with what's stated - if you're not sore and seeing results after trying it out, then it's most likely working.

Hendrix7

This is basically a push/pull/legs split done twice a week, fairly common.

No that's not overtraining necessarily but I would say it's overkill for most people outside of advanced lifters.

How long have you been training and what are your lifts like?

FrnkLft

I've been lifting now since November, so 5 months. Started with a focused, max heavy weight 4-6 rep x 3 set routine in January.

Why do you think it's overkill? I want to maximize gains and strength, and I would plan to rest for a week every 8 weeks/2months. I love going to the gym.

I've just got more in me after these "one group a week" routines, and I want to do more.

Hendrix7

You would make better gains on something like 5/3/1 with the bodybuilding assistance work IMO or something similar, upper lower split like sidesteel suggested,

After only 5 months lifting you can still get tons of mileage out of a linear system and frequency should still be your main focus instead of volume....if your back days don't feel like hard work then you are not really pushing yourself.

A routine with that kind of volume is not Necessary for someone at your stage and you won't get the best out of it until you have a serious base of strength........all in my opinion of course but I did pretty much exactly what you are describing and learnt from my mistake.

I make significantly better gains now training 4 times per week than I did 6. If you are talking about 'maximising strength' then look at the most successful routines in the strength training world at the moment, westside method, 5/3/1, cube method..........all 4 days per week.

SideSteel

You would make better gains on something like 5/3/1 with the bodybuilding assistance work IMO or something similar, upper lower split like sidesteel suggested,

After only 5 months lifting you can still get tons of mileage out of a linear system

^ Yep. I'd lean towards something like Stronglifts until your gains slow down/stop and then swap to 5/3/1, but either one will very likely work very well. Stay linear if you're only 5 months into training.

I certainly regret that I didn't do something similar when I started. I started on a bodypart split and while it worked (EVERYTHING works in the beginning) my strength sure isn't where I'd like it to be now, as a direct result of sub-optimal training early on.

FrnkLft

Why does my strength matter in terms of getting something out of it? With more strength comes more weight, meaning the effort remains the same, right?

Another thing is that I really like going to the gym, and I would prefer a routine that had me going more frequently. I don't like just sitting at home. If this routine doesn't hurt.

SideSteel

Why does my strength matter in terms of getting something out of it? With more strength comes more weight, meaning the effort remains the same, right?

Another thing is that I really like going to the gym, and I would prefer a routine that had me going more frequently. I don't like just sitting at home. If this routine doesn't hurt.

This was the attitude that I had as well. I still don't believe it's optimal, but I certainly understand where you are coming from.

tameko2

Why does my strength matter in terms of getting something out of it? With more strength comes more weight, meaning the effort remains the same, right?

Another thing is that I really like going to the gym, and I would prefer a routine that had me going more frequently. I don't like just sitting at home. If this routine doesn't hurt.

5/3/1 or an upper/lower split is 4x a week, and then you could do harder conditioning (prowler/weighted sled dragging/pushing, hill runs, spinning/rowing) and mobility work (yoga/stretchy stuff/pilates/whatever) on the 2 other days and still have 6 days at the gym.

Hendrix7

Why does my strength matter in terms of getting something out of it? With more strength comes more weight, meaning the effort remains the same, right?

Assuming you are not on steriods, strength is the only thing you have got to work with. You HAVE to get stronger to get bigger, which gets a lot harder once the newbie gains end.. As the weights go up sessions get more taxing and are harder to recover from.

You should pick a routine which is designed for your level of development, which I totally ignored and now regret. Stuff like this and 5 days splits/PHAT are advanced routines.

I agree with this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMUrwFbW8yE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLIl7R8lT6E


If you are going to do it anyway make sure you eat a lot and keep an eye on your scale weight, your TDEE will go through the roof lifting 6 days a week.

FrnkLft

Why does my strength matter in terms of getting something out of it? With more strength comes more weight, meaning the effort remains the same, right?

Another thing is that I really like going to the gym, and I would prefer a routine that had me going more frequently. I don't like just sitting at home. If this routine doesn't hurt.

5/3/1 or an upper/lower split is 4x a week, and then you could do harder conditioning (prowler/weighted sled dragging/pushing, hill runs, spinning/rowing) and mobility work (yoga/stretchy stuff/pilates/whatever) on the 2 other days and still have 6 days at the gym.

About the upper lower split, basically I'm just dividing my upper into two days right? Is it the lack of full rest that makes my idea a problem?

By the way, I cannot do deadlifts, or barbell rows due to lower back problems. This is mainly why I split everything so much.

Also I totally don't understand the 5/3/1 approach, can someone explain how that works? I want something simple. I don't want to have to look at tables to figure out my routine for the day.

ArroganceInStep

A) What are your lower back problems?
What exercises do you do for the various body parts now?
C) What are your goals?

I highly doubt you're overtraining, for the reasons underlined by ss and firerock

Also, if you're asking why your strength matters, you may want to just ignore me as the advice I have is much more geared towards getting stronger.

FrnkLft

My basic question, why is 4 days a week, effectively working out everything only once, somehow more effective than the split I suggested where I work each group once every 3 days? Especially when I know I could handle doing more.

Why do you see more gains working less in this case, if its not due to overtraining?

So this is what it would look like I guess:

Day 1:

Flat Chest Press
Incline Press
Decline Press
Military Press
Front Raises
Lateral Raises
Skull Crushers

Day 2:

Lat Pulldown
Seated Cable Pull
Cable Hyperextensions - Lower Back
Hammer Curls
Barbell Curls

Day 3:

Barbell Split Squat (doesn't hurt my back)
Leg Curls
Machine Leg Press (need back support)
Calf Raises

ArroganceInStep

No I meant why does having more strength make me a more viable candidate for advanced routines? Why not just start now when I've always done calithenics and been fit, just never lifted. I know that I could handle it.

My basic question, why is 4 days a week, effectively working out everything only once, somehow more effective than the split I suggested where I work each group once every 3 days? Especially when I know I could handle doing more.

Why do you see more gains working less in this case, if its not due to overtraining?

Ah, I'm very sorry then, I misunderstood. Generally speaking, those guidelines they put out like "you shouldn't be doing sheiko if you can't squat 400 lbs" are garbage.

There's two general reasons why more advanced programs aren't good for beginners:
1) Progression is too slow. 5/3/1 will increase weight a slower rate than say, StrongLifts. Obviously as you advance you can't up the weight as quickly anymore. If you're comfortable with the increase rate you have, don't worry about this.
2) Some of the finer points of advanced programming aren't really needed for novice lifters. If you're a 200+ lb guy and you're squatting 95 lbs, you don't need to worry about pre-hab work for your knees or muscle imbalances as much, you need to get your *kitten* under the bar and start upping the weight and working on your form.

There's nothing wrong with the split you mentioned. I've done Push/Pull/Legs twice a week before and saw decent progress with it. However, there's also nothing wrong with a 4x per week split hitting everything once a week. What matters a lot more is the movements you select and how you work your progression. As long as you're not hurting from working too often, go nuts. I've tried squatting 7 times a week before. It wasn't for me, but there are a lot of crazy Russians that do stuff like that and then go on to break world records.

ArroganceInStep

So this is what it would look like I guess:

I do have some suggestions surrounding your exercise selection, however are you open to trying different movements? Also what is wrong with your lower back?

I did try to answer your actual question so hopefully that helps some. Good luck either way.

FrnkLft

Why does my strength matter in terms of getting something out of it? With more strength comes more weight, meaning the effort remains the same, right?

Assuming you are not on steriods, strength is the only thing you have got to work with. You HAVE to get stronger to get bigger, which gets a lot harder once the newbie gains end.. As the weights go up sessions get more taxing and are harder to recover from.

You should pick a routine which is designed for your level of development, which I totally ignored and now regret. Stuff like this and 5 days splits/PHAT are advanced routines.

I agree with this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMUrwFbW8yE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLIl7R8lT6E


If you are going to do it anyway make sure you eat a lot and keep an eye on your scale weight, your TDEE will go through the roof lifting 6 days a week.

Why is training less, better, if I know I can handle more, and I am always mindful of keeping the weight as high as possible? I would be resting each group for 3 days at a time, and one full rest day a week. Is the benefit the full rest days inbetween?


@rtalencar I appreciate it man, my back hurts due to a misalignment problem in my lower back. got tweaked a long time ago and it's a sharp pain. I still have plenty of strength, but as it happens the exact position I use for standard squats and the top of the deadlift movement are what could trigger the spasm.

SideSteel

Why is training less, better, if I know I can handle more, and I am always mindful of keeping the weight as high as possible?

I would question the pace at which you would be able to increase your lifts with that training frequency/schedule. However, if you believe you can keep adding weight to the bar on that schedule and you enjoy doing it, then have at it.

Training less would be better if you can make faster progress.

ArroganceInStep

@rtalencar I appreciate it man, my back hurts due to a misalignment problem in my lower back. got tweaked a long time ago and it's a sharp pain. I still have plenty of strength, but as it happens the exact position I use for standard squats and the top of the deadlift movement are what could trigger the spasm.

Ok, have you gone for physical therapy or consulted a physician or something? If you can, you really should.

Can you do pullups? You should be doing those (weighted and unweighted) with great recklessness if you can't do deads. Also consider tbar rows as that's very close to a pendlay row but gives you more back support, that should cover the pull part.

For push, depending on how you're benching you may or may not be able to get adequate arch for proper form. I'd consider doing Incline Presses and Dips (same deal as pullups)

For your legs can you do front or zercher squats? Also try rear foot elevated split squats (bulgarians, you can just use the round part of a decline situp bench to support the rear leg and it hits everything pretty well) or lunges instead of just split squats. Leg Press is a fun exercise but I've never gotten much out of it other than the ego boost. I leg pressed 1000 for 2 relatively easy sets of 3 on Friday, and am still in the 4's with my.squat. I feel like I got a better workout racking the weight than I did on the sled.

The reason I'm suggesting these is because a lot of the movements you're suggesting aren't very well suited for progression. Building up to a full stack on seated rows or leg curls isn't very hard, and where do you go from there?

Generally speaking it's better to have a couple large compound movements and really push as much weight as possible on them for your main body of work, and then have accessory movements where you're not trying to move weight, but rather work the musculature. I think of making the big movements build strength and the accessory work build the musculature (there is of course some crossover, but I know that at least for me shrugs does a LOT more for my traps than deadlifting). I don't really think you need to be pushing for weight increases as hard on accessory work, but rather getting lots of volume in and really working on activating the target musculature through the movement (a great example for me was scaptions, once I figured out how to activate my subscapularis, I was huffing and puffing with 15 lb dumbbells).

So find movements that you can really get brutally strong on (taking your back injury into account of course), and get stronger. Then find accessory work that best builds up your musculature, and milk that with some body building style training to support your main lifts. Lastly look for weak points, muscle imbalances or problem areas, and get some volume in for prehab/rehab.

Sample Program:
Day 1/4: Legs
Main Movements
Front Squat, Barbell Lunges
Accessory Work
Bulgarians, Weighted Step Ups, Calf Raises

Day 2/5: Push
Main Movements
Incline Press, Weighted Dips
Accessory Work (Pick some, you can also alternate between day 2 and day 5)
BW Dips, Flyes, Seated DB Military Press, Floor DB Press, Decline DB Pullovers, CG EZ Bar Bench Press, Pushups

Day 3/6: Pull
Main Movements
Weighted Chins, TBar Rows
Accessory Work (Pick some, you can also alternate between day 2 and day 5)
Goodmornings, Pullthroughs, Seated Cable Face Pulls, Peck Deck Rear Delt Flyes, Shrugs, DB Concentration Curls, Lateral Raises, Hypers

One other thing I like to do is swap accessory work. I'm on a 4 day a week cycle with a 5th day for random stuff I feel like doing if I have time. But I'll do my Overhead Press accessory work on Bench day, Bench accessory on OHP day, Squat accessory on deadlift day, and pull accessory on squat day. That works quite well for me personally.

My $0.02

ETA: Looking at how long that is, much more like my $1,412,151.35 -> TL;DR Lift more, get stronger.

FrnkLft

Why is training less, better, if I know I can handle more, and I am always mindful of keeping the weight as high as possible?

I would question the pace at which you would be able to increase your lifts with that training frequency/schedule. However, if you believe you can keep adding weight to the bar on that schedule and you enjoy doing it, then have at it.

Training less would be better if you can make faster progress.

Right now at once a week I'm going up about 10 lbs every two or 3 weeks, not consistent though I recently switched from barbell press to dumbbells and that's a whole different game. Also, I only stopped dieting 4 weeks ago, so this is not a perfect representation. I simply listen to how my strength is for a given day, and if I feel I can do more, I up it by 5 lbs per arm. I see your point though, and understanding that makes it much clearer. I'll keep it in mind and see how things work out. Worse case scenario I'll just drop back down to what I'm doing now or try the suggested routines.

@rtalencar85 the suggestions are very well appreciated. theres so much stuff out there that could be done it helps to have something to work off of.

Sarauk2sf

Locking as there has been a lot of input here and to help us keep track of active threads. PM either myself or SideSteel if you want it unlocked so you can post to it. Please include a link to the thread.