Butterfly help please
kcaffee1
Posts: 759 Member
I've recently (about 2 months ago now) finally managed something that LOOKS like the butterfly stroke after being unable to coordinate the arms and legs. However, I think I'm still having trouble with the timing of the stroke. Are there any hints or suggestions on things that could help with this?
I've tried using a pull boy to ensure the upper body timing is correct with good form. That works until I add the legs back in.
I've tried using a kick board to help with the timing of the kick - and I can get a nice fluid dolphin when I do this. But it falls apart again when I combine it with the upper body.
I've even used a modified breast stroke to help with timing - again good results, nice dolphin motion until I get the full upper body into the mix.
I've even watched a couple of the local high school swim team members when they come over to the pool to work out, trying to see how the timing of the kick and the arms go together. But, for the life of me, I can't seem to get the kick timed to the arms. (or vice versa... which ever!)
I guess what I'm asking is: When using the butter fly, when are the feet supposed to "crest" on the dolphin? When the shoulders clear the water, or when they start dropping back after the breath?
Right now I feel like I'm an inch worm flopping down the lane! I know I'm not getting anywhere NEAR the power out of the kick as I should be - it's taking 15 strokes to cover 25 meters. When the timing is right, I know for even a slow stroke, that number should be cut in half depending on how far down the lane I am before I clear my shoulders for the first time after kick off.
Again, any suggestions or tips?
I've tried using a pull boy to ensure the upper body timing is correct with good form. That works until I add the legs back in.
I've tried using a kick board to help with the timing of the kick - and I can get a nice fluid dolphin when I do this. But it falls apart again when I combine it with the upper body.
I've even used a modified breast stroke to help with timing - again good results, nice dolphin motion until I get the full upper body into the mix.
I've even watched a couple of the local high school swim team members when they come over to the pool to work out, trying to see how the timing of the kick and the arms go together. But, for the life of me, I can't seem to get the kick timed to the arms. (or vice versa... which ever!)
I guess what I'm asking is: When using the butter fly, when are the feet supposed to "crest" on the dolphin? When the shoulders clear the water, or when they start dropping back after the breath?
Right now I feel like I'm an inch worm flopping down the lane! I know I'm not getting anywhere NEAR the power out of the kick as I should be - it's taking 15 strokes to cover 25 meters. When the timing is right, I know for even a slow stroke, that number should be cut in half depending on how far down the lane I am before I clear my shoulders for the first time after kick off.
Again, any suggestions or tips?
0
Replies
-
Go to the the 'speedo pace club' website.
They have great swimming tutorials that you can view.
If you register then you can record your swims, create virtual routes and lots more:-)0 -
If you put 'butterfly help' into the search engine on Mfp you will come across a long and helpful set of descriptions on butterfly after I posted a question on it. May help you too?0
-
If you put 'butterfly help' into the search engine on Mfp you will come across a long and helpful set of descriptions on butterfly after I posted a question on it. May help you too?0
-
I'll take all the help I can get! Thanks gentlygently for the offer, I'm looking up the other posts to see if there is something I can start with this week.0
-
Youtube butterfly videos.
I found this helpful when teaching the stroke...it's complex.0 -
Found the Shaw Method videos, and have started trying to work them into my drills. Not sure if I'm applying them properly, but I can feel the stroke is smoothing out... finally! At least I don't feel like an inch worm any more as I move up and down the lane. But, I can't seem to maintain the rhythm of the stroke when I push off the wall instead of the wall/floor corner. That may be because I'm still winded from the previous lap though.
Thank you everyone for their suggestions, and helpful ideas! It IS making a difference.0 -
You are doing better than me! I still struggle to do a (33m) length....and that is with the odd lesson etc. Still, at least now they are saying mainly it is stamina holding me back not timing - so I guess the guidance on the post trail I suggested helped. Yes, I like the Shaw suggestions too - tho my swim teacher was then criticising how slow I was doing everything...!
Good luck0 -
That may have been part of the problem. When I broke up the butterfly "set" alternating with butterfly out/ breast stroke back things started heading in the right direction. It was still rough, but at least I wasn't feeling as strung out by the end of the lap.
I started pushing a little, and am up to a full 50 m butterfly before breaking with the breast stroke. But, what REALLY got things moving in the right direction, and helping it smooth out tremendously was remembering NOT to breath with every stroke.
I don't know WHY that makes a difference, but when I breath every other stroke, it flows soooooo much smoother. 'Course I still have the days when I can't get things to work at all, and try to drown myself from inhaling the backs plash from the arms entering the water, but at least I know I've been moving to cause that accident!
And, the best thing for me - I know that 16 butterfly strokes in a 25 m length isn't the most efficient. And, I can FEEL when things aren't flowing right, because 16 strokes is a MINIMUM on those laps. I'll never be (and, honestly don't WANT to be a competitive swimmer) but I'd like to see a consistent 10 strokes per lap, so I'm still working on the efficiency thing. Looking at a few other videos, I think it may have to do with my kick. I got in a BAD habit the short while I was on a swim team, and using the pull buoys. Some 20 years later, I'm STILL trying to break that habit. (I'd rather work the arms than kick, so I tend to drag my legs - good for the upper body, lousy for the efficiency thing. And SERIOUSLY holding me back from reaching my goal of getting back up to 1600 m in an hour.)0 -
For me, I know when it's right because I feel like I'm part of my own wave. I love the butterfly, but can only do about five lengths (70 ft) without stopping. I am dealing with tendonitis and an ulnar induction nerve injury. I want to build up slowly.0
-
I have had a FEW strokes recently that had that feel. I'm just now getting to the point where I can FEEL the rhythm of the stroke, rather than the inchworm-like flop and slap of too much effort for too little return. I've tried watching the videos, and "counting" the rhythm, but I can't find one that is slow enough I can keep up at full speed, and when it's in slow motion, that doesn't help at all, because I tend to float through the shoulders and sink through the legs. I CAN recover from that, but I make a massive splash while I'm attempting to get back up to speed. (Not to mention turn plum red from embarrassment!)0
-
Don't be embarrassed. More than likely no one even noticed.
I recently started doing my butterfly in the deep end as widths to stop from creating so much wave action around kids in the shallows. The nice thing is that it is less tiring and I get to practice completely alone.
I often wonder if those people just think I am ungracefully drowning.0 -
That's part of why I turn so red when I have to re-start. It's usually because my timing got tangled, and my head didn't clear the back-splash of my arms, and I wind up trying to remember the human body is NOT designed to breath water. So, I have to stop and hack up what I just breathed before I can get going again.
Actually had the lifeguard a little worried today, because on my first set, third lap of butterfly, I didn't do this once, but twice in a row! About the only thing that went right with that fiasco was I had to pool to myself, so didn't have to worry about a hoard trying to descend on me and offer to pound me back under the water!0 -
Do you duck your head before the overhead reach?0
-
I don't THINK so, but I may be. I know that my shoulders don't clear the water most of the time, which is where part of the problem lies. And, I know that the times today when I tried to breath water my timing had already started to deteriorate the breath before.0
-
Two things that help me are putting the head down before the overhand reach, it allows for more power on the "scoop" and not doing the butterfly until I am super warmed up.
Give yourself time, this is a hard stroke to coordinate.
That lift is so crucial to the breath. Do you o a good amount do breast stroke every day? My butterfly didn't improve until I was breast stroking for a half hour.
What is your routine?0 -
On pool days:
Warm up with 200m breast stroke
4 sets of 200 m each stroke:
Freestyle, back stroke, butterfly, breast stroke
Depending on time, I might have to cut the last set, but I've been pushing to get them all in.
Alternate days
weights, but that hasn't settled down into a solid routine yet. I'm still assembling one that I can stick with for a while.0 -
I can't lift, because of the tendonitis.
I do a half hour of freestyle, followed by ten minutes of breast stroke/freestyle laps ( again, because the arm isn't strong enough to do a full lap of breaststroke yet), then ten minutes of butterfly.
Then I play "I'm gonna get you" with my son for ten or fifteen minutes, where I pretend to be a shark who chases him. :happy:
I love swimming!
I'll be glad when I'm better, but right now I'm still learning and I have little upper body strength.0 -
I have been veeeeerrrrry lucky, I'll admit to not having done something stupid to my shoulders in my life. Between horses and martial arts (my two other forms of preferred, but can't afford exercise) I'm surprised I haven't wound up in a walking body cast at one point or another. Just about every joint EXCEPT my shoulders have been affected. I am very glad that I am a water baby, because it lets me actually work every joint, no matter if it is acting up or not (most of the time. Right now the knees are giving me some grief, and I'm having to chase down the cause.)
But, despite some minor limitations, which is causing a slight form shift in my breast stroke kick, my breast stroke is still my "recovery stroke" of choice. It's the one stroke I know cold that I can't "drag" on, because when I do, I wind up underwater, and I wind up kicking to resurface. But, the pace is mild enough I can catch my breath after pushing on the lap(s) prior. I guess I COULD use the side stroke, but that just seems a gimme stroke now, not really working. More for lounging, or if I'm towing someone who got out of their depth.0 -
I find the breaststroke hurts my elbow the most, but I love the kick, so good for the thighs and buns. The butterfly is easier on my arm because there is not the backward push. I try to do both in moderation. I wish this would heal faster. Today I met a guy who just had surgery to fix his "tennis elbow", he said it was horribly painful to have the surgery.0
-
If the breast stroke hurts your elbow, have you considered trying to use the side stroke? There isn't as much tension on the arms, and if you need to, you can change which side is leading every lap. It works the legs and glutes as well, just not as intensely as the breaststroke.0
-
I see that the side stroke is required for life guarding, so I will start looking into it.0
-
Wow things have changed a bit since I last seriously looked into getting certified as a life guard. If you find any interesting links, I probably need to look into them. I want to hit the class with as much preparation as I can, since I'd be on a tight time budget. I missed the ones offered here in town by a week, and I still haven't talked to the next town over or the base (Not sure if I can get access to that, since I'm not military, nor come from a military family... but won't know until I ask, right?)
I'd still like to get that cert, but at the moment, I have other things starting to claim big chunks of time and making schedules .... interesting. So, I may have to put that on a back burner until after the summer classes are over.0 -
You have to do the test with no goggles. That may be a deal-breaker for me.0
-
I can survive that. ::chuckles:: When I finally got back in a pool after a much-to-long time, I had no goggles, no swim cap, and a suit that looked like it was out of the 30's on me from the way it didn't fit. Spent the next coupe of months prying loose the extra cash for the nice things that make swimming easier.
3 sets of goggles later I have a pair that rarely leak, but if I either squint when I put them on, or open my eyes too wide once I've been swimming for a while, I can guarantee they'll seep a little around the outside edge - usually right into the corner of my eyes. Makes doing the back stroke a bit more interesting, let me tell 'ya!
I'll just feel sorry for the pool equipment since I'll probably have to do the test without the swim cap too. I do that out of politeness' sake, not because I'm trying to be more streamlined. My hair, when braided, only comes to my waist line. And, even when braided I'm constantly shedding. So, all those loose hairs will wind up gumming up the cleaning equipment. (No, it's not something to be worried about - maybe a half brush's worth for the entire day, but when my hair is wet, the loose stuff comes out easier.) So, if I have to make my eyes red from the chlorine, I'll do it with a smile knowing I'm leaving behind a "thank you" present!0 -
I have a good pair from speedo that I like. They seal really well. I got the reflective type and I didn't really care about that before, but I do now, I don't like making eye contact while swimming laps.0
-
The first set I bought were reflective. I'd have liked to be able to use them, but my eyes are set VERY wide, and most of the hard bridge goggles just don't span far enough. The set that works most of the time is a cheap pair with one of the adjustable vinyl nose bands that actually flexes.
The leakage comes because I think I wound up getting a pair of junior eye cups, even though the box was labeled adult. Most of the time I don't grouse about it, but there are times when I'm doing the back stroke, and try to look over head to judge where the wall is. That's when I notice the leaks - those inevitable trickles of pool water into the corner of the eyes STINGS!0