Why I Hate Faith

soldier4242

Well my mind has been on a bender lately due to one of our own, darkguardian419, posting a link to a news article.

This a link to the article: http://news.yahoo.com/2nd-child-pa-couple-dies-only-praying-111713837.html

I felt a very real anger toward the parents in this article. This isn't just cute stupidity like Tim Tebow thanking god for every touchdown. This is sick and twisted *kitten* that deserves to be drug through the mud. I wanted to give the Christians a chance to tell me their side.

I created a thread in the general forums: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/969811-this-was-hard-for-me-to-read

I was hoping that one of these MFP Christians that go on and on about how prayer is making them lose weight might be able to construct some sort of defense which could give me some pause. The thread ended up getting locked because it is a topic people can disagree upon. So I guess I can't really get anymore Christian input on this but I do have some things that we can look at.

One user by the name of jcjsjones wrote this:

I am a believer and also believe in healing. My own daughter was healed.....HOWEVER

God gave us brains and common sense for a reason. He also gave doctors the ability to learn about how our bodies work for a reason.

This is child neglect...bottom line.

This user is ostensibly agreeing with me. This is child neglect and I am disgusted that it was allowed to happen a second time. Their remaining children need to be taken away and they need to be sterilized because clearly they can't handle the responsibility of taking care of another human. Yet jcjsjones prefaced all of that by saying she believes in healing and even sites how god healed her own daughter. Am I supposed to take the position that faith healing is only neglect when it doesn't work?

It is only neglect if the parents did nothing to help their child. If the prayer can work then why is this person saying it is neglect? Since they did pray why isn't this believer telling me that they parents did the best they could by turning to the ultimate authority for help?

So if I am understanding this correctly the believers are telling me that:

If I do nothing it is neglect.
If I just pray it is neglect.
If I do something and pray it is not neglect.
If I just do something it is not neglect.

So how is it logical in anyway to factor in prayer at all. From the believers own perspective the only thing that actually counts is actually doing something and prayer is simply an affectation.

This whole line about how God gave us the ability to solve our own problems just doesn't fly with me. It sounds to me like they are saying that God's help is indistinguishable from us solving our own problems. Furthermore that is a modern interpretation. The bible never says anything like that. It is pretty bold about its assertions that you can pray for anything and the only criteria for success is faith.

I have seen anyone make any posts saying that this is giving them pause about their own faith. Also why is nobody is calling to hold the actual church that taught them responsible in any way. If someone didn't convince these two that god would heal their children then they would not have wasted their time praying and their children would still be alive. An unquestioning adherence to religious teaching can have horrible consequences. In this case it resulted in the death of a two children whose only crime was to be dependent upon two faithful people to take care them. I am not saying that their religion should necessarily be prosecuted but they should be questioned. I want to know how they would respond to all of this.

ohenry78

I wonder if this tragedy will shake the parents out of their faith. The fact that they prayed to save a child and that god didn't answer should have them seriously questioning things.

Except that we know around here how it works -- it won't give them two seconds' thought, because the response will be "god works in mysterious ways". Barf.

ohenry78

As a side, that's BS the reason they closed it. The part they bolded basically said that it was because it had to do with one religion, when really the concept of prayer can be spread across many religions. As if it's really any different than the "Looking for christian MFPers" posts in the introduction forums.

perfekta

I wonder if this tragedy will shake the parents out of their faith. The fact that they prayed to save a child and that god didn't answer should have them seriously questioning things.

Except that we know around here how it works -- it won't give them two seconds' thought, because the response will be "god works in mysterious ways". Barf.

This was their SECOND child that died from not receiving medical attention. They got custody back of their kid, and one of the terms was that they HAD to take the kid to a doctor if medical attention was needed. They will never wake up. This was murder.

My dad would go to the hospital when one of the members of our Jehovah's Witness congregation (church) was in need of a blood transfusion, and help argue against them getting it. I know of one baby that was born, and needed a heart surgery, and the parents, and the JW's didn't want it because of the blood issue. My dad was down there helping. Baby died. I think these people will never own up to the fact they are wrong, because they have blood on their hands.

When I lived at home, my parents required me to carry the "No Blood Transfusions in case of emergency" card. When I had to have surgery in 8th grade to get my tonsils out, I was terrified they would let me die if there were complications. My younger sister needed a blood transfusion when she was 20, and my dad told her that he couldn't believe she got it, and he would have rather she died.

perfekta

As a side, that's BS the reason they closed it. The part they bolded basically said that it was because it had to do with one religion, when really the concept of prayer can be spread across many religions. As if it's really any different than the "Looking for christian MFPers" posts in the introduction forums.

Those posts make my eye twitch.

ScatteredThoughts

As a side, that's BS the reason they closed it. The part they bolded basically said that it was because it had to do with one religion, when really the concept of prayer can be spread across many religions. As if it's really any different than the "Looking for christian MFPers" posts in the introduction forums.

Those posts make my eye twitch.

What annoys me most is that there seems to be some bias among moderators and staff. In the past, when there are been parallel threads for Christians and Atheists seeking friends, the atheist thread always seems to get locked first. There is usually bickering from both sides when it happens, but generally more Christians seem to feel it necessary to cause a ruckus on the atheist side.

ScatteredThoughts

I wonder if this tragedy will shake the parents out of their faith. The fact that they prayed to save a child and that god didn't answer should have them seriously questioning things.

Except that we know around here how it works -- it won't give them two seconds' thought, because the response will be "god works in mysterious ways". Barf.

This was their SECOND child that died from not receiving medical attention. They got custody back of their kid, and one of the terms was that they HAD to take the kid to a doctor if medical attention was needed. They will never wake up. This was murder.

My dad would go to the hospital when one of the members of our Jehovah's Witness congregation (church) was in need of a blood transfusion, and help argue against them getting it. I know of one baby that was born, and needed a heart surgery, and the parents, and the JW's didn't want it because of the blood issue. My dad was down there helping. Baby died. I think these people will never own up to the fact they are wrong, because they have blood on their hands.

When I lived at home, my parents required me to carry the "No Blood Transfusions in case of emergency" card. When I had to have surgery in 8th grade to get my tonsils out, I was terrified they would let me die if there were complications. My younger sister needed a blood transfusion when she was 20, and my dad told her that he couldn't believe she got it, and he would have rather she died.

It is beliefs such as these, which truly disappoint me. I don't understand how one could put your faith above the safety of your child in these ways. People had very simplistic views of the world and how it works in the past, and I think this shows to a large extent in religious documents; many prohibitions against this or that just don't hold up in light of what we know today.

perfekta

As a side, that's BS the reason they closed it. The part they bolded basically said that it was because it had to do with one religion, when really the concept of prayer can be spread across many religions. As if it's really any different than the "Looking for christian MFPers" posts in the introduction forums.

Those posts make my eye twitch.

What annoys me most is that there seems to be some bias among moderators and staff. In the past, when there are been parallel threads for Christians and Atheists seeking friends, the atheist thread always seems to get locked first. There is usually bickering from both sides when it happens, but generally more Christians seem to feel it necessary to cause a ruckus on the atheist side.

Yes, that's what bothers me too. And I can't count the number of people that have their faith in their username, and all over their profile. But I don't see the same with atheists on here. They seem to want to hit everyone over the head with it.

perfekta

I wonder if this tragedy will shake the parents out of their faith. The fact that they prayed to save a child and that god didn't answer should have them seriously questioning things.

Except that we know around here how it works -- it won't give them two seconds' thought, because the response will be "god works in mysterious ways". Barf.

This was their SECOND child that died from not receiving medical attention. They got custody back of their kid, and one of the terms was that they HAD to take the kid to a doctor if medical attention was needed. They will never wake up. This was murder.

My dad would go to the hospital when one of the members of our Jehovah's Witness congregation (church) was in need of a blood transfusion, and help argue against them getting it. I know of one baby that was born, and needed a heart surgery, and the parents, and the JW's didn't want it because of the blood issue. My dad was down there helping. Baby died. I think these people will never own up to the fact they are wrong, because they have blood on their hands.

When I lived at home, my parents required me to carry the "No Blood Transfusions in case of emergency" card. When I had to have surgery in 8th grade to get my tonsils out, I was terrified they would let me die if there were complications. My younger sister needed a blood transfusion when she was 20, and my dad told her that he couldn't believe she got it, and he would have rather she died.

It is beliefs such as these, which truly disappoint me. I don't understand how one could put your faith above the safety of your child in these ways. People had very simplistic views of the world and how it works in the past, and I think this shows to a large extent in religious documents; many prohibitions against this or that just don't hold up in light of what we know today.

I think in this case it boils down to being selfish, self serving in the most extreme way. If my dad allowed us to get a blood transfusion, he would be giving up everlasting life on a paradise on earth. We simply weren't worth it. Maybe he also saw it as a test, like when Abraham being willing to murder his son Issac, and the like. Or Job (that one always got to me) having to let his children get killed to prove he loves god. (But he got more later, so that's okay?).

Bleh.

soldier4242

New International Version John 12:25
Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

New International Version Psalm 60:11
Give us aid against the enemy, for human help is worthless.

New Living Translation John 15:5
"Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing.

Numbers 20:1-13

In the first month the whole Israelite community arrived at the Desert of Zin, and they stayed at Kadesh. There Miriam died and was buried.

2 Now there was no water for the community, and the people gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron. 3 They quarreled with Moses and said, "If only we had died when our brothers fell dead before the LORD!4 Why did you bring the LORD's community into this desert, that we and our livestock should die here? 5 Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to this terrible place? It has no grain or figs, grapevines or pomegranates. And there is no water to drink!"

6 Moses and Aaron went from the assembly to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and fell facedown, and the glory of the LORD appeared to them. 7 The LORD said to Moses, 8 "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."

9 So Moses took the staff from the LORD's presence, just as he commanded him. 10 He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, "Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?" 11 Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.

12 But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them."
==================================================================================================

All it takes is for a person with an unquestioning faith to read the right verses and you will have a person that will believe that faith in god will be rewarded and doubting god will be punished. God's works are fruitful and great and the works of man are like dirty rags. I can easily see how a truly faithful person could come to the conclusion that taking their child to the doctor is a demonstration of doubt in their God. I hate this book and I hate that these two poor children have died because of a dogmatic devotion to it.

candyass1

There are many reasons for why I hate faith but the biggest that I see is the prosecution of science during the dark ages I HATE religion for this matter more than anything else.

If religion never got in the way we would be 1000 years more advanced today then we are now I HATE ALL GOD GROUPIES for this very reason

Well ok others too but THIS IS A BIG ONE

K

I feel better now

soldier4242

That is a legitimate reason to hate faith. We are still suffering today as a result of stagnation caused in our past by dogmatic religious zealots. What if today we were already able to meet our electrical needs with nothing more than sun and wind? That seems like a small thing but it would mean revolutionary changes to our industry. Our technology is not that far off from making that happen today. I think that means we could already be there by now.

candyass1

fusion is even something that is close on the horizon unlimited energy just around the corner

mahanaibu

At the risk of being the contrarian, I don't see it quite this way. Some--a very few--religious people will do what these parents did. We live in a religious society, and yet we can see that most Christians or people of any other faith are horrifed by what the parents did, and that society as a whole condemns it to the point of making it a crime. These parents happened to be religious a-holes, but the problem is that they were a-holes. There are terrible atheist parents who do terrible things also. being an utter idiot is not confined to one belief system or another.

I would put the woman who responded to the post by saying she believes in healing in a similar category to where I am...I won't ignore doctors, I do get treatment, but when the doctors said I would need surgery for my carpal tunnel, I said, let's try everything else first. and physical therapy did work, much to everyone's surprise. The chances were against it but it worked. It wasn't life-threateing so this was a fine thing to try another way. My sister believes in energy healing, but she doesn't reject everything doctors say and would never endanger her family. I think she's a little nuts, but she's not an illiberal idiot.

These parents' utter jerkiness took the form of religious belief, but their problem was more the jerkiness. They could have turned any belef, like an extraordinary belief in alternative medicine, into a dangerous extreme.

soldier4242

The bible advertises prayer as a panacea. The only way this misinformation could be a danger to children is if the parents believe in it. I think those two points are incontestable. Yes people of all different walks of life commit all manner of horrible crimes against humanity but this particular transgression carries and exceptionally heavy weight for several reasons:

The victims were defenseless children.
The parents choice to neglect the children was spurred on by their unquestioning faith in prayer.
That makes the killers in this case the very people that should have been the child's benefactor.
This was the second child that they parents killed in this way.
Lots of people are actually speaking in defense of the parents because prayer was employed.
Lots of people are actually speaking in defense of prayer itself.

It isn't simply a case of prayer being a waste of time. I have been to church and I have heard sermons from all sort of priests and preachers and this is the exact kind of faith that all of them are trying to instill in their congregations. Having a willingness to turn over everything that you have and everything that you are is exactly what the scriptures intend.

mahanaibu

I have nothing but contempt and anger toward the parents and the people who defend them, or anyone who tries to persuade others not to take advantage of medical care. But you know, I do think of my sister, who is in her way an atheist though she beieves in things like spirit guides and afterlife...she just doesn't believe in a god or in any organized religion. But you could say she worships at the altar of alternative medicine. She'll read any book by an alternative type and it becomes her new Bible. Eating according to your blood type, which has no real basis in science and actually gets some of the science dead wrong.

Meanwhile, a classmate from college had cancer, and to her fight against it she brought this abiding Cathlic faith to it. I would read her posts on Facebook; I only barely remembered who she was. And the posts were so annoyingly devout I almost hid them, but decided the more important thing was to know how she was doing. Every entry into a new treatment was accompanied by requestsfor people's prayers, every victory was accompanied by "Praise God!" and some words about how the Lord had heard her prayers and selected her for healing. Drove me a little nuts, as I'd sit there and thing, "and what? the prayers of all the people who are just as sick and just as devout are dreck? This is how religioius belief works? and the doctors have nothing to do with this?"

But she also was gracious and uncomplaining and serene even through the worst of it, at least on FB. She didn't make it; lasted only a couple of years. She never thought of denying herself treatment. (actually, i think the Cathlic church woudl have frowned on anyone relying solely on prayer.

So I continue to think of the two as different. yes, these people believed their pastor or whatever, who also deserves to be shot, and they deserve the worst, and they are drek. But my sister, though she's not quite insane enough not to get her daughter necessary medical care, might do stupid, oife-endangering things out of a belief that some Maori "healer" told her that what she really needed was a traditional Maori massage. It's their stupidity and stubbornness that bothers me.

Not that I'm not bothered by religious leaders or their followers--but only when they try to force their beliefs on others. (which these people obviously did to their children.) Proposition 8. Birth control restrictions. THOSE drive me crazy. I have no bone to pick with people who believe elaborate supernatural fantasies, as long as they're not trying to foist their beliefs on others.

soldier4242

I hate stupidity as well. If it is mixed with faith the combination can be devastating. The problem is faith is a suppression of a person's skepticism. You don't invoke faith so that you can believe in things that you have evidence for. You offer up faith as an excuse for believing in thing, not only in the absence of evidence but also in the presence of evidence to the contrary.

If a person were to lean on something new age I would be just as upset. If these parents tried to use healing crystals on their children rather than going to the hospital I would be just as pissed. The only differences would be that the Christians would not be putting any qualifiers on their answers at all and the thread would have taken far longer before it got locked.

I am stating unambiguously that reliance upon faith to accomplish something important and substantial in the real world is a fruitless activity that at its most harmless will result in wasted time and disappointment but at its most harmful can result in someone's death.
The con artists of the world love faith. If they can find a mark with enough faith they can get them to willingly hand over their life savings.