5/3/1 Impressions
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FrnkLft
Posts: 1,821 Member
So I want to move to a periodized routine, and I have heard of 5/3/1. Looks good to me, but after reading the book he seems like a bit of a bro (a no bs-bro, albeit). Of course if he's right who cares, so what do you guys know about 5/3/1?
It's pretty similar to the linear progression routine I'm doing now (4-6 x 3 sets, 5 days a week with big lifts) but introducing periodization has what seems like a pretty realistic goal structure.
It's pretty similar to the linear progression routine I'm doing now (4-6 x 3 sets, 5 days a week with big lifts) but introducing periodization has what seems like a pretty realistic goal structure.
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Replies
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Will respond in more detail in a bit, but Wendler ain't no bro!0
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Will respond in more detail in a bit, but Wendler ain't no bro!
Wendler is a first-ballot bro hall of famer
As you said it's a simple periodization routine. I've been doing it since January, I like it so far.
I wouldn't touch it until you were no longer able to make linear gains though.0 -
Will respond in more detail in a bit, but Wendler ain't no bro!
Wendler is a first-ballot bro hall of famer
I am going to get taso in here...you know Wendler is his man crush...or is that Tate? The guy is crushing on so many of them I get confused!0 -
Will respond in more detail in a bit, but Wendler ain't no bro!
Wendler is a first-ballot bro hall of famer
I am going to get taso in here...you know Wendler is his man crush...or is that Tate? The guy is crushing on so many of them I get confused!
I'm starting to get jealous, quite frankly.0 -
5/3/1 is a completely legit program and is very good for powerlifters and bb'ers alike. Depending on what your focus is, you can tweak to suit. This is assuming that it is being used by people for whom it is intended for - legitimate intermediate lifters.
There is a beginners program but I would hesitate to recommend that unless focus is on strength vs hypertrophy, and I still do not think it is as optimal as 5 x 5 type programs for beginners in any event.0 -
I've been doing a 5/3/1 routine since January and I like it a lot. I get to mix in some higher volume work while still pushing higher weights in an organized way. It's a nice change, it feels like I'm doing something different every week.0
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5/3/1 is a completely legit program and is very good for powerlifters and bb'ers alike. Depending on what your focus is, you can tweak to suit. This is assuming that it is being used by people for whom it is intended for - legitimate intermediate lifters.
There is a beginners program but I would hesitate to recommend that unless focus is on strength vs hypertrophy, and I still do not think it is as optimal as 5 x 5 type programs for beginners in any event.
What about it isn't optimal?0 -
I'm no expert by any means, but I've been doing it since last July (with a little break over the holidays) and I love it.0
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5/3/1 is a completely legit program and is very good for powerlifters and bb'ers alike. Depending on what your focus is, you can tweak to suit. This is assuming that it is being used by people for whom it is intended for - legitimate intermediate lifters.
There is a beginners program but I would hesitate to recommend that unless focus is on strength vs hypertrophy, and I still do not think it is as optimal as 5 x 5 type programs for beginners in any event.
What about it isn't optimal?
Not enough frequency or volume of the compounds for beginners.0 -
I already answered in your other thread. Just bumping to follow this one.0
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5/3/1 is a completely legit program and is very good for powerlifters and bb'ers alike. Depending on what your focus is, you can tweak to suit. This is assuming that it is being used by people for whom it is intended for - legitimate intermediate lifters.
There is a beginners program but I would hesitate to recommend that unless focus is on strength vs hypertrophy, and I still do not think it is as optimal as 5 x 5 type programs for beginners in any event.
What about it isn't optimal?
Not enough frequency or volume of the compounds for beginners.
I see, thanks for the clarification. This would minimize size and/or strength gains, or just make for slower progression in terms of those specific lifts?0 -
5/3/1 is a completely legit program and is very good for powerlifters and bb'ers alike. Depending on what your focus is, you can tweak to suit. This is assuming that it is being used by people for whom it is intended for - legitimate intermediate lifters.
There is a beginners program but I would hesitate to recommend that unless focus is on strength vs hypertrophy, and I still do not think it is as optimal as 5 x 5 type programs for beginners in any event.
What about it isn't optimal?
Not enough frequency or volume of the compounds for beginners.
I see, thanks for the clarification. This would minimize size and/or strength gains, or just make for slower progression in terms of those specific lifts?
The more experienced you are, the slower you can progress. There's no point in progressing like an intermediate or advanced lifter if you don't have to.0 -
5/3/1 is a completely legit program and is very good for powerlifters and bb'ers alike. Depending on what your focus is, you can tweak to suit. This is assuming that it is being used by people for whom it is intended for - legitimate intermediate lifters.
There is a beginners program but I would hesitate to recommend that unless focus is on strength vs hypertrophy, and I still do not think it is as optimal as 5 x 5 type programs for beginners in any event.
What about it isn't optimal?
Not enough frequency or volume of the compounds for beginners.
I see, thanks for the clarification. This would minimize size and/or strength gains, or just make for slower progression in terms of those specific lifts?
There are a couple of issues when someone goes to an intermediate program like this too early:
1) Volume - you only do a max of 15 main lifts (9 on 3s week) which is not particularly good for hypertrophy. This can be mitigated by adding appropriate assists. The problem there is that you also want to use assists to well, assist your main lift. There is only so much you can do in a session however. As a way to get a 'balance' I am adding a couple of lighter sets at the end of the main lift session, to get the volume up but not taking up too much of the session doing exactly the same type of lift. This leaves me time/energy to do more focused auxiliary lifts.
2) Frequency (and volume) - as you are only doing a main lift 1 x a week - you only practice 1 x a week. This is just not enough for beginners to get their form down as well/quickly as they would do by lifting more than once a week. There is also the issue of only working a major muscle part once a week re limitations to hypertrophy.
Basically, intermediate programs are for people who have 'used up' the beginner gains and so can only make intermediate gains (in strength or muscle gains). The longer you have been lifting the smaller the possible gains are that can be made (assuming all other things equal and they have decent programs in the first place). So, if you are a beginner on an intermediate program (and this is a generalization), then you may well be limited to intermediate gains - which are slower than beginner gains.
That being said, I actually went to 5/3/1 after only a couple of months of lifting (as I had not done my homework at that time) and I absolutely love it and have seen really good progress. I probably would have made better progress however on a program that had more volume and frequency.0 -
Will respond in more detail in a bit, but Wendler ain't no bro!
Well. He's KIND of a bro. He's got a section in his book called "North of Vag" that makes me roll my eyes every time I get to it.
But the program itself is perfectly solid. I think Sara and Rock covered everything I would say.0 -
Will respond in more detail in a bit, but Wendler ain't no bro!
Well. He's KIND of a bro. He's got a section in his book called "North of Vag" that makes me roll my eyes every time I get to it.
But the program itself is perfectly solid. I think Sara and Rock covered everything I would say.
That's called being a *kitten* not a bro!
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Will respond in more detail in a bit, but Wendler ain't no bro!
Well. He's KIND of a bro. He's got a section in his book called "North of Vag" that makes me roll my eyes every time I get to it.
But the program itself is perfectly solid. I think Sara and Rock covered everything I would say.
That's called being a *kitten* not a bro!
Oh yes, good point. Carry on then.0 -
I've spent a lot of time on the 5/3/1 program and I agree with what has been said here.
5x5 should come first. Then once you've exhausted those gains, you'd be fine moving onto something like 5/3/1.
It's a great program and it's easy to tweak, but the progress is slow compared to a 5x5 program.0 -
I've spent a lot of time on the 5/3/1 program and I agree with what has been said here.
5x5 should come first. Then once you've exhausted those gains, you'd be fine moving onto something like 5/3/1.
It's a great program and it's easy to tweak, but the progress is slow compared to a 5x5 program.
agreed and to be expected with the laws of diminishing returns. Going to be that way with any program as you become more experienced.0 -
I tend to think that beginners would benefit from even more volume than that provided by a 5x5 type program (assuming they are able to handle the workload, of course).
I've started setting up programming for a couple of people from my dojo casually, and I had them do 5x5, 5x20 followed by moderately high rep assistance work (disclaimer, one of the kids is in high school and very fit, and the other is in grad school...and very fit). They responded very well to the additional rep work (though they cursed me out for it), and if you look at it from a practical perspective, because I had them start with such light weight, it was basically just an extra 100 repetitions per workout to practice form. They were able to stick to that pace for about a month, at which point I dropped it to 5x10 (which is the boring but big addon, but on top of 5x5 rather than 5/3/1). Once that's exhausted I'll either move them on to a 5/3/1 that suits them or have them give 5x5 solo a shot based on what they feel like doing. They're on a movement split though, and will be sticking with that.
Wendler is most definitely a bro, but then again so am I so I can't really fault him for that.
The validity of 5/3/1 really depends on you and your goals. What Fire said is 100% correct, following programming to the letter you will always progress faster with a stronglifts-esque style where you're bumping the weight every workout rather than every month or whatever. One way to bump the increases of 5/3/1 a bit is to set your subsequent cycle off the calculated max RM of your 1+ set. That's what I do when I want to ramp up quickly with it.
At the end of the day, if you're a beginner you need reps to practice form and get comfortable under the bar. In that regard 5x5 is 'better' than 5/3/1.
If you're intermediate recovery time becomes more and more of an issue and you stop being able to make the rapid gains you might have grown used to as a beginner. In that regard, selecting a program that accounts for your need for recovery (either through things like deload weeks or through programming with sub-maximal efforts and so on) might be most beneficial. In that regard, your 5/3/1 would be 'better'.
If you're advanced...you should get your *kitten* off the MFP forums and get to the gym since you already know what needs done.
Consistency trumps all, do what you can stick with.0 -
I've spent a lot of time on the 5/3/1 program and I agree with what has been said here.
5x5 should come first. Then once you've exhausted those gains, you'd be fine moving onto something like 5/3/1.
It's a great program and it's easy to tweak, but the progress is slow compared to a 5x5 program.
agreed and to be expected with the laws of diminishing returns. Going to be that way with any program as you become more experienced.
Ok so I'm still reading, and the anabolic effects of exercise persist for between 24 to 48 hours after a session. The natural conclusion here is that to maximize gains for any particular muscle group, it helps to work them out at least twice a week while still providing a day of rest in between.
That said, isn't 5x5 optimal, even better than 5/3/1? 5x5 has you working out the same groups 3 times a week!0 -
FWIW, 5x5 was too much for me. So was SS which had me squatting heavy 3 times a week.0
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My opinion, for whatever it's worth...
You have pretty much nothing to lose by trying Stronglifts 5X5 or Starting Strength. You'll know pretty quickly whether you are too advanced for it or not. I thought I was not a beginner and wanted to do 5/3/1, but I started doing 5X5 and am thriving on it.
And if it turns out that you are at an intermediate level, doing a beginner program for a month or two won't have hurt your progress, you'll just be completely wiped out from it.0 -
I've spent a lot of time on the 5/3/1 program and I agree with what has been said here.
5x5 should come first. Then once you've exhausted those gains, you'd be fine moving onto something like 5/3/1.
It's a great program and it's easy to tweak, but the progress is slow compared to a 5x5 program.
agreed and to be expected with the laws of diminishing returns. Going to be that way with any program as you become more experienced.
Ok so I'm still reading, and the anabolic effects of exercise persist for between 24 to 48 hours after a session. The natural conclusion here is that to maximize gains for any particular muscle group, it helps to work them out at least twice a week while still providing a day of rest in between.
That said, isn't 5x5 optimal, even better than 5/3/1? 5x5 has you working out the same groups 3 times a week!
At the end of the day, you're going to have to try it for yourself and see how it works for you. You can't say definitely that one paradigm is 'better' for everyone, it doesn't work like that. People have had lots of success with 5/3/1, they've had success with 5x5, they've had success with sheiko and smolov and the conjugate method. Try it out and see what you like best.0 -
FYI I also posted on the regular public forums, here's the last of it for reference:
Yeah I've decided to try the following:
Sun - Bench & Squat
Mon - Press & Deadlift
Tues - Rest
Wed - Bench & Squat
Thurs - Rest
Fri - Press & Deadlift
Sat - Rest
I just really want something more aggressive, and using 5/3/1 gives me the periodization scheme that I like along with flexible 3rd sets. This way I hit everything 2 times a week, I will definitely take advantage of the deload week (maybe do the 4 day routine for that one) and I'll be optimizing gains.
This also periodizes the rest between big lifts... which is interesting, I wonder how that will play out. But two full days between a given big lift (where I'm not lifting my 5RM) should be plently.
This is the exact two day split that he recommends in the book though (just expanded for 2x), and although it's been a long while, I'm accustomed to training the same things everyday (back in high school, JROTC, pushups/pullups/situps/running to failure every afternoon).
Also keep in mind that while it sounds like a lot, routines like 5x5 have you doing nearly all of this in a single day (alternating BB Rows and DL though), and while Sun & Mon are going to be tough, it tapers for the rest of the period.0 -
That setup looks fine to me being that you will be practicing the main lifts just as much or possibly more (depending on assistance choice) than SL or SS.
And as rtalencar85 more volume for a beginner can be a great idea sometimes. The whole sheiko template system was designed to take young athletes with minimal experience to comp level. All about specificity. (powerlifting) Not the be all and end all for LBM retention and bodybuilding.0 -
By any chance have you checked out Madcow?
That might be an intermediate program that you would enjoy if you like the 5 big lifts.0 -
FYI I also posted on the regular public forums, here's the last of it for reference:
Yeah I've decided to try the following:
Sun - Bench & Squat
Mon - Press & Deadlift
Tues - Rest
Wed - Bench & Squat
Thurs - Rest
Fri - Press & Deadlift
Sat - Rest
I just really want something more aggressive, and using 5/3/1 gives me the periodization scheme that I like along with flexible 3rd sets. This way I hit everything 2 times a week, I will definitely take advantage of the deload week (maybe do the 4 day routine for that one) and I'll be optimizing gains.
This also periodizes the rest between big lifts... which is interesting, I wonder how that will play out. But two full days between a given big lift (where I'm not lifting my 5RM) should be plently.
This is the exact two day split that he recommends in the book though (just expanded for 2x), and although it's been a long while, I'm accustomed to training the same things everyday (back in high school, JROTC, pushups/pullups/situps/running to failure every afternoon).
Also keep in mind that while it sounds like a lot, routines like 5x5 have you doing nearly all of this in a single day (alternating BB Rows and DL though), and while Sun & Mon are going to be tough, it tapers for the rest of the period.
Do squats and deads before bench and pressing, otherwise looks solid. Give it a shot and see how you react.0 -
Tagging for my own reading later on.0
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I've done 5/3/1 for a while I am on cycle 10 week 1 at the moment.
Since January I did the big but boring. I have not missed any weights, I PR constantly weather it's the actual weight i'm lifting or it is the number of reps I can do. I love the program. When I got to month 10 I thought maybe it's time for a change. I did one work out that wasn't 5/3/1 and I was depressed about it, I left the gym feeling unchallenged. Right away I went back and added in a ton of exercises to address the weaknesses I noticed during the 4 months of BBB. My lifts are incredible compared to what they were before. I don't look that all huge though, certainly some one doing 10 months of a hypertrophy type work out would look more massive, but they typically wouldn't be able to move the weight I do. I trust the work out and don't question it.0 -
FWIW, 5x5 was too much for me. So was SS which had me squatting heavy 3 times a week.
Same for me. I kept hitting a wall and my form was slipping, I was beginning to dread some lifting days. I swapped to 5/3/1 and find it much better to just concentrate on nailing one main lift per session. I also love the fact that it is so varied and look forward to each session.
Yes I agree that my progression in weights has slowed, but there still is progression.0
This discussion has been closed.