Protein needs and calculating

heybales

40/30/30 is a good rough start for getting good macro ratios down - sometimes.

When TDEE and eating goal is high, 30% for protein could be causing a goal that is way more than needed, or desired, since it can be expensive, difficult, and if body isn't decently healthy, an overload on your system converting excess to fat and or energy needs.

Protein and fat are both macro's better set by amount per weight or Lean Body Mass. Carbs can have rest of the calories.

But how much do you need, or how much useful?

One common Protein recommendation is 1 gram per pound of LBM. That is rounding up of a metric conversion from the actual recommendation of 2 g / kg / LBM. It would actually be 0.91 g / lb / LBM.

But to avoid the whole LBM aspect, some just say 1 g / lb of current weight, or goal weight.
Both those give very inflated values over what is needed. Which means you are just cutting out carbs that actually are useful depending on your workouts.

Here is great article based on actual research of body builders. So those actually eating in excess to build muscle, or cutting and needing to maintain for competition. And they are at healthy weight and bodyfat levels already.

So it would be doubtful you would even need these high levels, but it does show you that you may have more range available than straight 30% of eating goal, which I've found for many is overkill compared to the 20%, sometimes even 15% if large TDEE right now.

http://mennohenselmans.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

Here are some highlights.

I only included them if they controlled for sweating and dietary adaptation periods.

• Tarnopolsky et al. (1992) observed no differences in whole body protein synthesis or indexes of lean body mass in strength athletes consuming either 0.64g/lb or 1.10g/lb over a 2 week period. Protein oxidation did increase in the high protein group, indicating a nutrient overload.
• Walberg et al. (1988) found that 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain positive nitrogen balance in cutting weightlifters over a 7 day time period.
• Tarnopolsky et al. (1988) found that only 0.37g/lb was required to maintain positive nitrogen balance in elite bodybuilders (over 5 years of experience, possible previous use of androgens) over a 10 day period. 0.45g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass in bodybuilders over a 2 week period. The authors suggested that 0.55g/lb was sufficient for bodybuilders.
• Lemon et al. (1992) found no differences in muscle mass or strength gains in novice bodybuilders consuming either 0.61g/lb or 1.19g/lb over a 4 week period. Based on nitrogen balance data, the authors recommended 0.75g/lb.
• Hoffman et al. (2006) found no differences in body composition, strength or resting hormonal concentrations in strength athletes consuming either 0.77g/lb or >0.91g/lb over a 3 month period.

Based on the sound research, many review papers have concluded 0.82g/lb is the upper limit at which protein intake benefits body composition (Phillips & Van Loon, 2011). This recommendation often includes a double 95% confidence level, meaning they took the highest mean intake at which benefits were still observed and then added two standard deviations to that level to make absolutely sure all possible benefits from additional protein intake are utilized. As such, this is already overdoing it and consuming 1g/lb ‘to be safe’ doesn’t make any sense. 0.82g/lb is already very safe.

The picture below summarizes the literature. As you can see, 1.8g/kg (0.82g/lb) is the point at which additional protein intake ceases to yield any benefits.

A final objection that is often heard is that these values may be true during bulking or maintenance periods, but cutting requires more protein to maintain muscle mass. Walberg et al. (1988) studied cutting weightlifters and they still found 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain lean body mass.

There is normally no advantage to consuming more than 0.82g/lb (1.8g/kg) of protein per day to preserve or build muscle. This already includes a very safe mark-up. There hasn’t been any recorded advantage of consuming more than 0.64g/lb. The only exceptions to this rule could be individuals with extraordinarily high anabolic hormone levels.

Oh, fat?
0.3 g/lb/day (0.64 g/kg/day) of body weight. Or 0.37 g/lb/day (0.8 g/kg/day) of LBM.

Carbs get whatever is left.

So in MFP, you set the % to whatever gets you those grams, doing protein and fat first.
As weight is lost, and eating goal goes down, those quantities change, and % likely will change.

littlepinkhearts

good information...thanks for posting....

johnwhitent

Thanks for posting and especially for interpreting!

lwoodroff

Very useful, especially as high protein can be hard on the system just to digest as well as the cost/benefits stuff. Thanks!

katevarner

My problem is that if I eat according to these recommendations, I get too many carbs. Current weight 110, LBM about 99 lbs according to my scale and the bodpod at my gym (I'm having a DEXA scan this week, so that could change, but I imagine if it does, it will go down). I am very active and burn an average of 2300 calories per day (according to my BMF, but also according to what I eat--in maintenance and not gaining, and my average intake over the last several months is right at 2300 per day).

So, by these recommendations, that means about 100g of protein (400 calories) and 37g of fat (333 calories). That means I need about 392g of carbs per day to fill in the missing calories, and if I eat that many carbs, I gain. And I feel like crap. Some of that is where I get the carbs, of course, but it's nearly impossible to eat 400g of carbs from leafy greens, even if you add in legumes.

"High" protein works for me. I get more like 150g per day and more like 85g per day of fats. That still means I get around 250g of carbs per day, but I try to keep my fiber around 40g per day so that isn't quite so high. I have been maintaining my weight since October.

All that to say, one size doesn't fit all.

himel13

Thank you so much for posting this! I had a practically impossible to reach (for me) protein goal set and I was struggling to get it in and getting frustrated. I think I'll be much more comfortable with the levels I just set now!
You're the best!

berthabunny

So glad to read this

Thanks for putting it all together, I know I have been guilty of way over eating on protein!

According to this, i never need to bother to get over 130 on the high end, and get away with 115 or so :bigsmile:

Great news, as I have been having a hard time getting that!

heybales

My problem is that if I eat according to these recommendations, I get too many carbs. Current weight 110, LBM about 99 lbs according to my scale and the bodpod at my gym (I'm having a DEXA scan this week, so that could change, but I imagine if it does, it will go down). I am very active and burn an average of 2300 calories per day (according to my BMF, but also according to what I eat--in maintenance and not gaining, and my average intake over the last several months is right at 2300 per day).

So, by these recommendations, that means about 100g of protein (400 calories) and 37g of fat (333 calories). That means I need about 392g of carbs per day to fill in the missing calories, and if I eat that many carbs, I gain. And I feel like crap. Some of that is where I get the carbs, of course, but it's nearly impossible to eat 400g of carbs from leafy greens, even if you add in legumes.

"High" protein works for me. I get more like 150g per day and more like 85g per day of fats. That still means I get around 250g of carbs per day, but I try to keep my fiber around 40g per day so that isn't quite so high. I have been maintaining my weight since October.

All that to say, one size doesn't fit all.

Very true, this isn't about what works best for you or anyone individually.

This is about what levels are totally unneeded in the sense of protein "requirements" or recommendations so as to either build muscle or retain muscle mass.

Nothing to do with what happens to make you feel fuller, or reduces the carbs because that is actually what hits your body hard.

In the scheme of price, fat would be the cheapest thing to take the place of carbs if you really didn't want them that high, not protein. But that is again a personal choice.

I just know I've seen many many complaints about how hard to hit the 30% on big TDEE values, or it gets expensive, or boring because of other restrictions a person has.

Just wanted to throw out what max amount could even have a chance of providing a benefit just for protein's sake.

You and many others have carb max values they have discovered, that's great and best to follow then.

bossymomd

There is WAY too much MATH in this losing fat/gaining muscle/getting healthy business! My head spins from it! LOL

:noway:

floopysandi

Thank you for this! It is a lot of math, but I love it!!