Vegan vs vegan diet
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Some good thoughts here. I've been vegan for over 10 years and vegetarian for 7 before that.
Veganism is best understood as a religion.
A vegan is someone who prescribes to the core beliefs (discussed in this thread already) and the lifestyle and diet are natural extensions of those beliefs. Accidental and unintentional use of an animal product happens rarely, but it does happen due to mislabeling, misinformation, etc.. you regret it and move on. To "slip up" intentionally would be unthinkable to a vegan and would require a loss of faith.
To be vegan does not require perfectionism but it does require belief. I welcome, encourage, and help people to adopt a plant-based diet and lifestyle as much as possible as a part of my faith, but I find it offensive when someone says they are vegan when they only think of it as a diet. It would be like eating kosher and saying you are Jewish. That's just not how it works.0 -
I try my very best to not participate or contribute to things that harm
sometimes I mess up (pretty much never with my diet though)
I think that is what a vegan is someone who believes and tries there best to avoid harming including the diet, clothing, products and so on0 -
Some good thoughts here. I've been vegan for over 10 years and vegetarian for 7 before that.
Veganism is best understood as a religion.
A vegan is someone who prescribes to the core beliefs (discussed in this thread already) and the lifestyle and diet are natural extensions of those beliefs. Accidental and unintentional use of an animal product happens rarely, but it does happen due to mislabeling, misinformation, etc.. you regret it and move on. To "slip up" intentionally would be unthinkable to a vegan and would require a loss of faith.
To be vegan does not require perfectionism but it does require belief. I welcome, encourage, and help people to adopt a plant-based diet and lifestyle as much as possible as a part of my faith, but I find it offensive when someone says they are vegan when they only think of it as a diet. It would be like eating kosher and saying you are Jewish. That's just not how it works.
I like that. Can we reiterate what the core beliefs are? That animals should not be used as a commodity? Or something more specific? I know there are some that would take it further (for instance, not believing animals should be "owned"), but what would you consider the core beliefs?0 -
if you call yourself a neat person but you accidentally (or purposely) leave your house one day with a sock on the floor, are you no longer allowed to call yourself a neat person?!0
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I like that. Can we reiterate what the core beliefs are? That animals should not be used as a commodity? Or something more specific? I know there are some that would take it further (for instance, not believing animals should be "owned"), but what would you consider the core beliefs?
Personally I think veganism can be simplified to the central belief that animals are sentient individuals with lives equally valuable to humans. Adopting this one belief causes an ethical person to completely rethink how they interact with the world.
I think this page correctly describes veganism:
http://www.animalequality.net/veganism
An excerpt on the core beliefs:
"Being vegan is about living a lifestyle that does not cause suffering, harm or death to animals, and allowing animals to be free to choose the way they want to live. Other animals are sentient beings like us, with their own needs, desires and interests. We now know that like us, they can experience a wide range of sensations and emotions such as happiness, pain, pleasure, fear, hunger, sadness, boredom, frustration or contentment. They are aware of the world and what happens to them matters to them. Their lives have intrinsic value - they are not inferior beings nor just here as resources or tools for human use. Discriminating against non-human animals or believing them to be inferior solely because they belong to a different species is known as speciesism and is as unscientific and unjust as racism or sexism."0 -
if you call yourself a neat person but you accidentally (or purposely) leave your house one day with a sock on the floor, are you no longer allowed to call yourself a neat person?!
There are two problems with your analogy. First, leaving a sock on the floor is not an ethical issue. Pose a similar question regarding a charitable person that is stealing from the poor and you'll see a huge difference. Second, being neat is highly subjective without any qualifying conditions like one would find with membership in a movement, religion, or organization. For example, anyone can say they are an astronaut, but if they aren't trained and/or employed as a crewman of a spacecraft it's not true. This is the case whether or not the person holds an honest belief that they are an astronaut.0 -
if you call yourself a neat person but you accidentally (or purposely) leave your house one day with a sock on the floor, are you no longer allowed to call yourself a neat person?!
There are two problems with your analogy. First, leaving a sock on the floor is not an ethical issue. Pose a similar question regarding a charitable person that is stealing from the poor and you'll see a huge difference. Second, being neat is highly subjective without any qualifying conditions like one would find with membership in a movement, religion, or organization. For example, anyone can say they are an astronaut, but if they aren't trained and/or employed as a crewman of a spacecraft it's not true. This is the case whether or not the person holds an honest belief that they are an astronaut.
there are problems with your reply as well... a super strict, judgmental neat person could very well consider the sock on the floor unethical. (haha
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seriously though, the choices we all make and where we draw the line at cruelty is highly subjective as well. most vegans won't eat honey, but a very strong argument can be made for "perfect" vegans to avoid any produce or nuts pollinated by commercial bees. (I've read reports that that is roughly HALF the produce we typically consume.) transporting (and exploiting) bees around the world to pollinate is a huge part of our agriculture industry, and is likely contributing to the huge problems of colony collapse, in addition to the individual bees that suffer and die as a direct result of this every day practice.
this thread is frustrating and sad to me. anyone who thinks he/or she qualifies as a "perfect" vegan, and feels free to judge others as not-perfect-enough to call themselves vegan is drawing a line.... there's just no way to live on this planet without ever hurting anyone. we step on bugs, we smash them to bits when we drive, our porch lights confuse birds at night, we buy things that destroyed some species habitat.... it goes on and on and on.
even if all the fabric listed on your non-wool or pleather jacket is not from animals, are you aware that almost all clothing is made with fusable interfacing to give collars, waistbands, cuffs, etc stability and strength? do you know what that glue is made of? whatever it is, it's not on the label and likely has an animal product.
I could go on.... but I hope you already get my point.
all we can do is our best. sadly, no one is perfect. it's a big, scary, cruel world... do your best. call yourself vegan, and if someone gets confused when you take an exedrin for your migraine, take a bite of the buttery pie your grandma made or accidentally step on an ant, or keep wearing those awesome leather boots you've had since your pre-vegan days.... just have a freakin conversation! explain what veganism means to you, and why it's important to you. as far as I'm aware, there is no official qualifying exam for being vegan. if there were, I'm willing to bet we could all be accused of failing somewhere.0 -
I agree with everything you're saying.
Remember, most people come to MFP for weight loss. While the dietary component of being vegan is much healthier than the standard American diet, it is important for people to understand that veganism is not a diet, it is a philosophy and a lifestyle. That's what this thread is specifically about; helping people to understand this distinction in a venue where a lot of people are likely to not know the difference.
As I said before, veganism is not about perfection. My point is only that it comes from belief. How a person acts from that belief and where they draw their line is (as you pointed out) highly subjective. I have vegan friends who eat honey (beegans), ones that do not, ones that are raw, ones that are stricter about sugar source, ones that have rescued pets, etc.. Some vegans will use older non-vegan clothing items if they were not purchased new. There are probably hundreds of points like this where you can draw your line differently than someone else, and that's ok. You do your best and follow your conscience. But these are all varying interpretations of the same belief. What is important is that these people share that belief and act accordingly which is what makes them vegan. Having said that, there are definitely some objective qualifying behaviors such as abstaining from the willful consumption of meat (includes fish), dairy, or eggs, etc.. as well.0 -
I agree with everything you're saying.
Remember, most people come to MFP for weight loss. While the dietary component of being vegan is much healthier than the standard American diet, it is important for people to understand that veganism is not a diet, it is a philosophy and a lifestyle. That's what this thread is specifically about; helping people to understand this distinction in a venue where a lot of people are likely to not know the difference.
As I said before, veganism is not about perfection. My point is only that it comes from belief. How a person acts from that belief and where they draw their line is (as you pointed out) highly subjective. I have vegan friends who eat honey (beegans), ones that do not, ones that are raw, ones that are stricter about sugar source, ones that have rescued pets, etc.. Some vegans will use older non-vegan clothing items if they were not purchased new. There are probably hundreds of points like this where you can draw your line differently than someone else, and that's ok. You do your best and follow your conscience. But these are all varying interpretations of the same belief. What is important is that these people share that belief and act accordingly which is what makes them vegan. Having said that, there are definitely some objective qualifying behaviors such as abstaining from the willful consumption of meat (includes fish), dairy, or eggs, etc.. as well.
I agree with you too. my original comment was in response to the various vegan police who said "....you can't call yourself vegan..." I'm sorry I didn't quote them originally, and perhaps save us some confusion.0 -
I agree with everything you're saying.
Remember, most people come to MFP for weight loss. While the dietary component of being vegan is much healthier than the standard American diet, it is important for people to understand that veganism is not a diet, it is a philosophy and a lifestyle. That's what this thread is specifically about; helping people to understand this distinction in a venue where a lot of people are likely to not know the difference.
As I said before, veganism is not about perfection. My point is only that it comes from belief. How a person acts from that belief and where they draw their line is (as you pointed out) highly subjective. I have vegan friends who eat honey (beegans), ones that do not, ones that are raw, ones that are stricter about sugar source, ones that have rescued pets, etc.. Some vegans will use older non-vegan clothing items if they were not purchased new. There are probably hundreds of points like this where you can draw your line differently than someone else, and that's ok. You do your best and follow your conscience. But these are all varying interpretations of the same belief. What is important is that these people share that belief and act accordingly which is what makes them vegan. Having said that, there are definitely some objective qualifying behaviors such as abstaining from the willful consumption of meat (includes fish), dairy, or eggs, etc.. as well.
I agree with you too. my original comment was in response to the various vegan police who said "....you can't call yourself vegan..." I'm sorry I didn't quote them originally, and perhaps save us some confusion.
Very interesting discussion! I agree with both of you and am proud to call myself vegan. Even though there are some that might not agree.0 -
i prefer vegan food but dont live a vegan lifestyle so i also prefer to say i eat plant based diet. i have no problem with vegans and a vegan lifestyle at all. i started eating this way for health reasons. maybe the lifestyle will grow in me later but my focus is on my health at this point. sometimes its easier to explain to people that i eat a vegan diet as they tend to understand that much more then plant based as it is a newer term a lot of people around my area are not familiar with, i live in farm country. i think each step towards eating this way eases some of the suffering of animals. my job requires some use of leather though and there is no way around that. there are certain items i am required to wear.0
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Veganism is not just a diet, it's a lifestyle that aims to avoid the exploitation of animals which includes not eating, wearing etc. animal derived products or products that are based on the exploitation of animals.
Any step towards this is positive and welcome, i,e. a plat based diet, but I think we should keep the definition fairly strict, to avoid it being watered down as the definition of vegetarian has become.
Cheers,
HC
I mostly agree with you. Veganism is a lifestyle not just a diet. Have you ever heard 'I'm a Vegan but have to have Icecream on my birthday, I love my leather and my favorite sport is dog fighting'? Its like the all the segments of veggies: eg: Lacto-Ovo-Vegetarians. And like it has been said, one bad apple spoils the bunch. A 'vegan' that sets a bad example could poison the view of others as to what a vegan means.
But on the other hand there are plenty of people that are aspiring vegans and that try to be more conscious about what they eat for wither ethical or health reasons. Maybe they are slowly transitioning from their SAD to vegetarian with the goal of eventually becoming vegan. Should they call themselves vegans from the get go? Maybe, maybe not... Where is the line? Do you have to wait a 1 month, 6 months, 1 year, 5 years of 100% vegan life to earn the name vegan. Should it be so exclusive as to shy people away from the cause?0 -
Lots to think about.
My doctor recommended the vegan diet to me months ago for health reasons. I started eating this way one week ago. As I've been learning more about what it means to be vegan, I have, of course, come across the political implications, most of which I agree with. However, I have no intention of getting rid of leather shoes I've had for years; that would be wasteful to me. I do intend to avoid buying same in the future.
I also have no intention of refusing a dinner invitation or burdening the host/hostess with my dietary restrictions (unless asked). There are usually side dishes, even if the center attraction is a giant roast or something.
I guess I'm prepared to say I follow a plant-based diet. That seems easy to define, vegan not so easy.0 -
I feel like this is a very important conversation to be having, and yet I also feel a sense of ambivalence about it. It does not do the animal rights movement any good to kick people out for not being good enough vegans. In fact, I think being very strict about what is acceptable just makes more and more people leave veganism and animal rights behind. I think that's very important to recognize because it's very blatant when talking to people about how they feel about vegans. There's no doubt that many people are already put off by the strictness and amount of negativity toward people who are trying to be vegan, but may not be some idealized version of one. No matter how much anyone may want to, it's good to check yourself and remember that you don't get to decide for someone else what or who they are.
So, I'm going to leave it at that, as I can't read through all the comments and respond more now. But, I hope people will see just how futile it is to try and control who considers themselves a vegan, and that this conversation is somewhat based in the idea of doing so.0 -
I don't know I just always assumed people who are Vegan do it mainly for the Ethical side of life. Could be wrong!
I can't say if people who do it for health reasons or for ethical reasons are vegan or not, but maybe I can give some insight. I was vegan many years ago for 5 years and then left the lifestyle and now have recently come back to it. What drew me to veganism originally was my concern for the environment and for the healthy lifestyle. I had not even heard of veganism until I heard about it on an environmentalist action website and how it's more ecologically sustainable than meat and dairy diets. At the time, though I didn't like factory farming, I wasn't opposed to family farms. I grew up in a dairy farming community and some of my relatives, including one set of my grandparents were farmers. But over time, I grew to see what was before my eyes all those years could be considered unethical and started to come around to the ethical side of veganism. Anyways, for stupid reasons, I left the lifestyle. My health took a beating because of it, but all those years I was feeling guilty and the guilt built. The ethics had affected me much more than I realized. I came back to veganism recently, again for health reasons, but I feel as if a weight had been lifted my shoulders and that has to do with ethics.
I guess my point is, people turn to veganism for different reasons and the end result is it reduces suffering. Not everybody, but for some the ethics can affect change in people. It did with me and I grew up in an area that thought vegetarianism was a bad word and from someone who religiously hunted and fished growing up.0 -
I do eat vegan, for the most part, but I don't call myself a vegan, one reason is I'm not a fan of being labeled with titles because most people assume I can't do something. I'm eating this way for purely dietary reasons, and my understanding to call yourself a "vegan" means no animal products whatsoever, including clothing and not even eating honey for some.
I'm fine with saying "I eat plant based" personally.
This. I use the term "vegan" as it's easier understood. I do try to avoid animal products as much as possible. My choice is primary dietary also. And to say I am going to throw away my Doc Marten combat boots I've had for nearly 15 years, just not going to happen. Plant-based, plant-strong, etc. seems to be growing trend.0 -
I think it would be irresponsible of a new turned vegan to trash all of their non vegan goods. Either keep it and use it until it's done for, or give it to someone else.0
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I think it would be irresponsible of a new turned vegan to trash all of their non vegan goods. Either keep it and use it until it's done for, or give it to someone else.
Agree!0 -
I eat 100% vegan (except for sugar, even vegan products here have sugar).
But, I still wear leather shoes, wool etc as a uniform.
My house has a leather couch, I have no choice in that.
I have Vegan facewash, but the shampoos etc so expensive,
I try and buy them though. I do as best as I can, but until I leave this house I don't think I can call myself Vegan,
Although animals are the only reason I eat etc the way i do.0 -
in saying that i could quite easily go back to eating honey.
i also ride and show horses and our gear we use is leather, there's not much i can do in that.0
