Do men really feel this way?
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There is too much missing from the context of the statement...is there a dating routine going on or just an interaction.
If the former then probably yes,a guy will grow tired of it (assuming no direct conversation regarding her desire for whatever reasons to not be intimate until married) and it would sort of make her a user.
Worst thing she could do?...meh,not really.
If just two people as friends then he is wrong to think it,would make him either a user,a predator or foolish.0 -
Yes, this is true (and I, too, find it appalling).I think the context in which this statement was made is very important to this discussion. If I recall correctly, you asked about a woman who "comforted" men who were going through a break up or other difficult time and then would become annoyed or offended because they had the nerve to hit on her. I think that is appalling behavior on the woman's part.
Wow, I hadn’t thought of this. Thank you for this perspective.The woman in question was actively pursuing men who were emotionally vulnerable and encouraging them to discuss their vulnerabilities as if she was a emotional support these men could rely on. For men, this is particularly difficult. It is showing weakness and causes feelings of being less of a man. The natural instinct is to "regain your manhood." The easiest way to do that is through sexual conquest.
Thank you. I was beginning to wonder (in my case, not the flirty woman from the other thread) if perhaps by accepting my friends attention and time I was somehow entering an implied contract that physical intimacy was earned. I’ve always been upfront about my feelings on this (perhaps too much so) so I really don’t feel any guilt.If a woman is going through a tough time and a guy offers unsolicited support, the woman shouldn't have to question his motives. If the guy had a hidden intent, that is his problem. I don't feel sorry for him and I don't have any ill will towards the woman who was the target of his agenda
So glad to see you posting Dave! Whether it’s the insightful stuff or the sarcastic stuff, you’re always great to read!0 -
This is arguable the worst thing you can do to a guy, use him for emotional support, then not give him any physical action. Horrible.
I think the context in which this statement was made is very important to this discussion. If I recall correctly, you asked about a woman who "comforted" men who were going through a break up or other difficult time and then would become annoyed or offended because they had the nerve to hit on her. I think that is appalling behavior on the woman's part.
The woman in question was actively pursuing men who were emotionally vulnerable and encouraging them to discuss their vulnerabilities as if she was a emotional support these men could rely on. For men, this is particularly difficult. It is showing weakness and causes feelings of being less of a man. The natural instinct is to "regain your manhood." The easiest way to do that is through sexual conquest.
Additionally, there is the aspect that emotional intimacy and physical intimacy often go hand in hand and that the combination of the two increases the sense of security and bond between the parties. I think this is true for both men and women. The probability of seeking a sexual connection based on a strong emotional connection is part of the reason that it is unethical for counselors and/or psychologists to enter into relationships with patients. I believe that both male and female patients are vulnerable to such relationships. I do not know which gender would be more vulnerable.
In the context of every day life, i do not agree that this is the worst thing you can do to a guy. That is, if a woman is going through a tough time and a guy offers unsolicited support, the woman shouldn't have to question his motives. If the guy had a hidden intent, that is his problem. I don't feel sorry for him and I don't have any ill will towards the woman who was the target of his agenda. It's the same principle as a woman who thinks she can get a relationship by offering sex. When she is kicked to the curb because the guy finds a girl who he really likes for more than scratching an itch, I don't feel sorry for her either.
This^^^ You've covered all bases :flowerforyou:
Reading through the thread I had this crazy scenario in my head of every woman who asked for a guys help/opinion/support having to shag him in thanks and gratitude!!! :noway: :laugh:
It just says to me that guys that are friend zoned should speak up and be clear about their intentions/expectations. Women dont ever feel the need to thank a guy physically. Ever! If they do, it's just as underhand as the guy expecting it in return. IE you are both after something entirely different to what's being discussed.0 -
This may come of as blunt but, I'm open to sleeping with every single one of my female friends. I wouldn't ever rule that out, just cause the label "friend" is there.
* Internet - High - Five *
Man *kitten*!! :laugh: :bigsmile: :flowerforyou:0 -
Hi Pixie - YES! It would be a really good idea for a man to be honest with a woman from the start. In my case, I thought it was ME who was in the friendzone because he kept saying "I don't think we want the same thing - what do YOU want?" So I thought HE was trying to blow ME off and it wasn't until a WHOLE lot of time & misunderstanding that we are only NOW able to even START to clean this up. If he had stated his intentions clearly from the beginning, we wouldn't have been so confused and resentful toward each other.0
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I'm realizing, yes, they feel this way more than I had ever realized.
I had a difficult early summer break up, a male friend swooped in to support and rescue, etc. and then he asked for a relationship. I didn't ask him for the emotional support, but I took it when it was offered, so I feel some mixed guilt because I sort of knew it was a quid pro quo situation.
You never asked for it, but you still used him as an emotional crutch, no?
Put the shoe on the other foot for a second. What if a guy, whom you were crazy about, just broke up with his girlfriend. You started flirting and you two ended up shacking up a few times. Then a few days later he says, "thanks for the fun time, but all you were was a rebound hookup and I don't want anything to do with you anymore." Wouldn't you be a little hurt?
I agree with your point, but I also feel like his actions were kind of predatory knowing my emotional state. I said I felt some mixed guilt- not that I just took his support and spit on him afterward. He knows me well enough to realize that I wouldn't jump directly from a year and half long relationship into his arms. While it might seem like a nice crack in the friendship that allows a romantic door to open, I think it's totally crappy to try to wrangle a friend who is a vulnerable mess.
Also, I've supported him in really big ways (helped move his parents across the country) so maybe I was an idiot for not expecting something in return for that? Not trying to be a martyr, though.0 -
If you know a guy likes you romantically and you keep him around just for the conversation (basically friend-zoned), then it is flat out wrong and not fair to the man. Those kind of women make my stomach turn.
I agree, and I would add that if she keeps him around for conversation and tries to lead him on, it's not fair. But men do this as well, it is not just women.0 -
If you know a guy likes you romantically and you keep him around just for the conversation (basically friend-zoned), then it is flat out wrong and not fair to the man. Those kind of women make my stomach turn.
I agree, and I would add that if she keeps him around for conversation and tries to lead him on, it's not fair. But men do this as well, it is not just women.
I kind of disagree with that. If he's open and honest about his feelings (I love you!) and she's open and honest in turn (I don't feel that way about you) then from that point on it's clear and in the open. If she isn't uncomfortable around him after that and still sees him as a friend she's not using him, but she can make decisions about maybe not changing her clothes in front of him anymore with the new knowledge. It's also his decision to hang out with her or not. If he decides it's better to have her as a friend than not have her in his life at all, then as long as he can keep being a friend, why not? If he can't then that's fine too.
My biggest thing is honesty. As long as people are open and communicative then well informed decisions can be made by all parties.0 -
I kind of disagree with that. If he's open and honest about his feelings (I love you!) and she's open and honest in turn (I don't feel that way about you) then from that point on it's clear and in the open.
Oh I agree completely. My point was knowing that he likes you without him coming right out and saying it, so you use him for that attention and perhaps leading him on.0 -
Yes - men also lead women on! I know two musicians in particular who keep an entire HERD of female admirers who are NOT their lovers but give a kind of maternal support. the women often find some kind of "excuse" to be near them - offer them gigs or recording opportunities or even become their students. The guys apparently need the wide-eyed admiration and the women are too frightened to declare their true feelings because they know they will be rejected. I have thought in the past that the men KNEW what they were doing, but after talking with them about it, I now think they are so needy in their own ways, that they just do not understand what they are doing to lead on the "groupies."0
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Yes - men also lead women on! I know two musicians in particular who keep an entire HERD of female admirers who are NOT their lovers but give a kind of maternal support. the women often find some kind of "excuse" to be near them - offer them gigs or recording opportunities or even become their students. The guys apparently need the wide-eyed admiration and the women are too frightened to declare their true feelings because they know they will be rejected. I have thought in the past that the men KNEW what they were doing, but after talking with them about it, I now think they are so needy in their own ways, that they just do not understand what they are doing to lead on the "groupies."
This is a good point. I've know lots of men wanting that "wide eyed admiration." Usually musicians, visual artists, and professors, but could be anyone. The ones who do this tend to have a group they are/would sleep with, and another group that seems to provide hero worship reassurance.0 -
I think it works both ways... it appears that women and men have a hard time having a platonic relationship with out one of them wanting physical attention. My opinion.0
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I'm realizing, yes, they feel this way more than I had ever realized.
I had a difficult early summer break up, a male friend swooped in to support and rescue, etc. and then he asked for a relationship. I didn't ask him for the emotional support, but I took it when it was offered, so I feel some mixed guilt because I sort of knew it was a quid pro quo situation.
If he only helped for sex, screw that guy (not literally, in fact the opposite). I mean, what kind of loser offers emotional support on the condition - or at least the expectation - you'll sleep with him? Just pathetic. And I absolutely disagree with the statement that it's just absolutely awful when women fail to "put out" after getting emotional support from a man. Again, wtf?
Sure, being there for someone and offering emotional support can lead to a relationship. But there shouldn't be any quid pro quo in friendships. You help someone when they're down. If you expect something in return, other than their appreciation, you're a terrible human being.
--P0 -
This unfortunately is the story of my life. I become romantically interested in women, and then bend over backwards to make them happy. Even after I know it won't go anywhere romantically I still continue hoping "they will come to their senses".
This is so beyond creepy to me.
I have several platonic guy friends and though I'm sure if I walked out of the bathroom naked saying "let's ****" they'd be down, that doesn't mean we're not friends. It means that we are animals with instincts and fun bits.
On that note if I went to one of the aforementioned guy friends because I was having an emotional issue that I needed advice on and at the end he turned around and said "let's ****" I would be utterly livid. The point of our friendship is NOT sexual and it's very CLEARLY not sexual.
I don't go around expecting all guys to be my emotional support, my feelings are not something I trust someone with lightly so if I found out that after all this time "he" was waiting around for me to give up and settle on him or, as it's so interestingly worded, "come to my senses" that would be betrayal. It means that he never cared about my feelings, he never listened and shared and helped because he wanted to be a good friend and because he saw me as a good friend. It would mean that everything was based on a lie and all that mattered was my poontang and potential access to it.
So I disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that that is the worst thing I could possibly do to a man. I am not USING him (him is arbitrary in this context) any more than I USE any other person I count on, trust and love. That is what friends, real friends, do for each other. That is the basis and entirety of the relationship. I have a different type of relationship with people that I have sex with.
There is something to be said for girls that intentionally use a guy because they know he's interested in them and it is a horrible thing to do to someone. Just like it's horrible for a guy to just use a girl for sex because he knows she likes him and is willing. Hell, you could switch that up and I'm sure everyone would be upset all over again! Using someone is hurtful to all genders not just men.
Thanks for calling me creepy for being a nice guy and actively working to try to show someone that I'm worth their time.
You rock! :flowerforyou:
I didn't say you were creepy, I was saying that mentality is creepy - you yourself acknowledged that it's not a positive thing.
Also, it isn't nice for you to have an agenda like that. It's deceptive and dishonest. You are playing at being friends when you really don't have an interest in being friends, you want more and you aren't being open about it. It's underhanded and it's wrong.
Even now you aren't being honest with me. Instead of coming out and addressing that you felt insulted so I could have an opportunity to clarify, you turned passive aggressive, played at the "nice guy" with a cute little emoticon and for what? Did it make you feel good? Did you hope I would simply take back everything and "come to my senses" about how very very wrong I am?
Allow me to preemptively say, I don't think you're a bad dude. I'm not angry at you. I don't think you're skeezy and a creep. I think that, like many of us here on MFP (and please please do not see this as an insult), you have low self-esteem and that one of the symptoms of that is the attitude you take toward being the nice guy in the hopes that one of the girls you pine after will suddenly realize how awesome you are. But in the meantime my ultimate point for the entirety of the thread, is literally that as much as it hurts you to suffer, the girl is not being a "user" for being friends with a guy and not having sex with him.
I don't know you, but I.like you.0 -
If he only helped for sex, screw that guy (not literally, in fact the opposite). I mean, what kind of loser offers emotional support on the condition - or at least the expectation - you'll sleep with him? Just pathetic. And I absolutely disagree with the statement that it's just absolutely awful when women fail to "put out" after getting emotional support from a man. Again, wtf?
Sure, being there for someone and offering emotional support can lead to a relationship. But there shouldn't be any quid pro quo in friendships. You help someone when they're down. If you expect something in return, other than their appreciation, you're a terrible human being.
--P
This. Perfect. ^^^ Normally a lurker, but I had to participate in this discussion.
I think the idea that women are expected to 'put out' in exchange for emotional support is asinine. If you're my friend, I expect to be able to lean on you, regardless of it you're male, female, single, married or hell, even if we're just friends and we DO have chemistry and maybe SOME day we will become a couple. And the same goes for my friends: they can call me up any time of the day for emotional support and I will not expect sex at the end of that conversation. That's what being a friend is. Do guys expect their male friends to come give them sex every time they have to actually be a friend?
Yes, it's possible to be a friend to someone and then something comes from that in a natural way. But to be a friend with the expectation that she's going to eventually have sex with you because now she "owes you one" is disgusting. And would you really want to have sex with someone who didn't find you attractive but now felt obligated to do it, anyways?
I'll let Morpheus sum it up for me:
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This unfortunately is the story of my life. I become romantically interested in women, and then bend over backwards to make them happy. Even after I know it won't go anywhere romantically I still continue hoping "they will come to their senses".
This is so beyond creepy to me.
I have several platonic guy friends and though I'm sure if I walked out of the bathroom naked saying "let's ****" they'd be down, that doesn't mean we're not friends. It means that we are animals with instincts and fun bits.
On that note if I went to one of the aforementioned guy friends because I was having an emotional issue that I needed advice on and at the end he turned around and said "let's ****" I would be utterly livid. The point of our friendship is NOT sexual and it's very CLEARLY not sexual.
I don't go around expecting all guys to be my emotional support, my feelings are not something I trust someone with lightly so if I found out that after all this time "he" was waiting around for me to give up and settle on him or, as it's so interestingly worded, "come to my senses" that would be betrayal. It means that he never cared about my feelings, he never listened and shared and helped because he wanted to be a good friend and because he saw me as a good friend. It would mean that everything was based on a lie and all that mattered was my poontang and potential access to it.
So I disagree wholeheartedly with the idea that that is the worst thing I could possibly do to a man. I am not USING him (him is arbitrary in this context) any more than I USE any other person I count on, trust and love. That is what friends, real friends, do for each other. That is the basis and entirety of the relationship. I have a different type of relationship with people that I have sex with.
There is something to be said for girls that intentionally use a guy because they know he's interested in them and it is a horrible thing to do to someone. Just like it's horrible for a guy to just use a girl for sex because he knows she likes him and is willing. Hell, you could switch that up and I'm sure everyone would be upset all over again! Using someone is hurtful to all genders not just men.
Thanks for calling me creepy for being a nice guy and actively working to try to show someone that I'm worth their time.
You rock! :flowerforyou:
I didn't say you were creepy, I was saying that mentality is creepy - you yourself acknowledged that it's not a positive thing.
Also, it isn't nice for you to have an agenda like that. It's deceptive and dishonest. You are playing at being friends when you really don't have an interest in being friends, you want more and you aren't being open about it. It's underhanded and it's wrong.
Even now you aren't being honest with me. Instead of coming out and addressing that you felt insulted so I could have an opportunity to clarify, you turned passive aggressive, played at the "nice guy" with a cute little emoticon and for what? Did it make you feel good? Did you hope I would simply take back everything and "come to my senses" about how very very wrong I am?
Allow me to preemptively say, I don't think you're a bad dude. I'm not angry at you. I don't think you're skeezy and a creep. I think that, like many of us here on MFP (and please please do not see this as an insult), you have low self-esteem and that one of the symptoms of that is the attitude you take toward being the nice guy in the hopes that one of the girls you pine after will suddenly realize how awesome you are. But in the meantime my ultimate point for the entirety of the thread, is literally that as much as it hurts you to suffer, the girl is not being a "user" for being friends with a guy and not having sex with him.
I don't know you, but I.like you.
Oh, you :blushing:0 -
I am on the other side of this. One of my ex-best friends helped me get out of a highly abusive relationship. He was there for everything, did things for me he doesn't do for anyone else, hugged, kissed me, spent the night with me, spent tons of time with me, etc. Then when I asked him for a relationship he flipped out at me and told me he doesn't like me that like, etc. Makes no sense to me and because of it we are no longer friends.0
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I am on the other side of this. One of my ex-best friends helped me get out of a highly abusive relationship. He was there for everything, did things for me he doesn't do for anyone else, hugged, kissed me, spent the night with me, spent tons of time with me, etc. Then when I asked him for a relationship he flipped out at me and told me he doesn't like me that like, etc. Makes no sense to me and because of it we are no longer friends.
He wasn't physically attracted to you and he had other options. If a guy is attracted to you physically and other elements are copacetic, he would want a relationship.0 -
This statement from another thread got me thinking about guys over the years who have showered me with time, attention and even gifts. I thought they were just enjoying the company of a friend- much like I enjoy spending time with my friends and treating them to little gifts. The time we spent talking I enjoyed in its own right. I would be saddened to think that after mutually being friends, a man who heard my heart and also poured out some of his heart wouldn’t be satisfied with that emotional exchange but then also expect some kind of physical action as well.This is arguable the worst thing you can do to a guy, use him for emotional support, then not give him any physical action. Horrible.
Since the guys in question weren’t “more than friends” it never occurred to me that they might feel like I owed them any more appreciation than enjoying our time spent together.
What do you all think?
I think saying that women owe you sex is disgusting. I'm so sick of men acting like the only worthwhile thing a woman can give them is sex. Women have other valuable traits. I feel like sex is looked at as a bartering chip women are supposed to use to gain security and protection from men.0 -
I'm realizing, yes, they feel this way more than I had ever realized.
I had a difficult early summer break up, a male friend swooped in to support and rescue, etc. and then he asked for a relationship. I didn't ask him for the emotional support, but I took it when it was offered, so I feel some mixed guilt because I sort of knew it was a quid pro quo situation.
If he only helped for sex, screw that guy (not literally, in fact the opposite). I mean, what kind of loser offers emotional support on the condition - or at least the expectation - you'll sleep with him? Just pathetic. And I absolutely disagree with the statement that it's just absolutely awful when women fail to "put out" after getting emotional support from a man. Again, wtf?
Sure, being there for someone and offering emotional support can lead to a relationship. But there shouldn't be any quid pro quo in friendships. You help someone when they're down. If you expect something in return, other than their appreciation, you're a terrible human being.
--P
Aww, thanks. I've been questioning myself on this friendship today, so this is nice to hear. I've put a lot of effort into him lately (helped him clean his garage, hosted a few dinners and kid play times) trying to coax him out of sulky hurt feelings, and I'm getting nothing back except an exhaustive ongoing disagreement about elementary schools. This tells me that yeah-I should (not literally) screw him.0
