A Machiavellian Guide to Dating Quality Women
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While I have no doubt that castadiva (or any other independent woman) CAN find an intelligent, self-confident man that would appreciate a strong, intelligent woman as Prahasaurus says, I guess I'm left feeling like I don't see a whole lot of those available. Those that are available really do appear to be looking more for that beta female!
As much as I love to give Mike a hard time, I'm not sure I can argue with his statements. Though they are more extreme than necessary, the reality I see matches it, though it sucks. Evolution seems to trump what we'd like.
As a female over 35 and never married, I know I'm far too independent and intelligent to "fall in line appropriately" and be the beta female most men prefer. My male friends have always said that if I ever married, it would be later once men tend to have more confidence, aren't AS wrapped up in looks/ size, and are comfortable with a woman who handles things better than most people (not just men) such that they don't need to feel NEEDED. If that's accurate, then the evolution hasn't changed much. The alpha male looks for a beta female... leaving the beta males and alpha females on the prowl so to speak. There are an awful lot of ALPHA females on SINGLE peeps.... I just find it hard to argue that, though MAN, I would really LOVE to!
ETA: I'm in a grouchy mood, so my response is likely affected by watching several ongoings in my office of this exact situation...0 -
Most men would rather go for women who possess desirable physical characteristics, but who *can't* support themselves. Therefore, they *need* us to provide for them. We don't want a perfect partner, we want someone who compliments us in hope that our children take the best qualities from each of us. In short, **we don't want to procreate with strong, self sufficient women, however we deeply want our offspring to become that.**
In other words, you want a woman to be wholly dependent on you. If she is dependent on you, you don’t have to worry about her leaving or looking around for something better. You become the center of her universe, no matter how you treat her or what you do – because she has no other choice or options. You then hold all the cards. I can see why you prefer this approach.What I'm trying to say is this. I'm sure you make your parents proud because you are self sufficient child. However, you're not what men go for. In my opinion, you (and other strong women) have evolved yourself right out of the human race. Not to sound mean or anything, but that's how I genuinely feel.
Wow, I feel sorry for you. I’ve found that secure, confident men generally don’t share your viewpoint. They don’t need to find a woman who is weak to convince themselves they are wanted and desirable. I can assure you that you are wrong when you say that “you’re not what men go for.” It’s astounding to me that you would even make such a blanket statement. While certainly some men (obviously you) may not go for a self sufficient woman, it isn’t all men. I personally find it bizarre when I encounter men like you. You really want a woman who doesn't have the brains to figure out how to pay her basic bills? Those are the types of genes you want to pass on to your offspring?Having this whole independent female attitude will leave you.. well, independent and alone (and rightfully so).
It's your belief that women who can support themselves deserve to be alone? I'm sorry, but my mind is completely blown.0 -
Don't worry - you'll still find your socially-acceptable, not-too-clever, needs-you-to-provide, conventionally-pretty wife. The sort of shift I'm talking about takes time, and not every woman is prepared to face the slings and arrows society (or you, as society's representative, in this case) throws, and has always thrown at someone, particularly a woman, who dares to break the mold and does not put up the pretense of conformity. Call me what you like, tell me my future is dark and meaningless because I'm "not what men go for" - I really don't care. What you mean is that I make you uncomfortable, that I challenge your assumptions, and that I'm not what the average man - the men like you - goes for. I already knew that, and strangely enough, I'm not losing sleep over it. I doubt many of the other strong women here are either.
I never thought I would say this.
Hallelujah, sister.
I am high-fiving you over the internet.
I am never going to end up a slave to some sexist pig who is too busy worrying about society and whether or not I am "appropriate" for his polished *kitten* of a lifestyle with the white washed picket fence and the three "evolved" kids that are wondering why mommy is crying is the bathroom again because she gained five pounds and daddy threatened to divorce her if she got one more gray hair or wrinkle (I don't know if you guys know this, but young girls don't stay young).
It's clear there's a few of you that don't know *kitten* about evolution, and that's adorable and all, but I thank gods I don't even believe in that I'm not your type because I would rather commit homicide than procreate with someone that has such an extraordinary level of pretend smarts.
And I know how this is going to go, someone is going to say that I'm going to be a lonely spinster forever because I'm fat or too smart or too strong and watch me not care. I am so tired of the same old rhetoric, do you honestly think I've never heard worse before? Do you think I'm going to cry because I don't have the approval of someone I couldn't care less about? The fact is that I know there are people that are a match for me, and Castadiva and EVERY woman here. Men exist that are better than the *kitten* I have seen spouted in this thread, men that are on this forum that are funny, smart and like a woman with wit and drive.
I actually know a thing or two about evolution and I believe that those type of men are going to get more common. Nature has a way of balancing itself out. The strong survive and the weak die. Watch me thrive mother f*ckers.0 -
Most men would rather go for women who possess desirable physical characteristics, but who *can't* support themselves. Therefore, they *need* us to provide for them. We don't want a perfect partner, we want someone who compliments us in hope that our children take the best qualities from each of us. In short, **we don't want to procreate with strong, self sufficient women, however we deeply want our offspring to become that.**
In other words, you want a woman to be wholly dependent on you. If she is dependent on you, you don’t have to worry about her leaving or looking around for something better. You become the center of her universe, no matter how you treat her or what you do – because she has no other choice or options. You then hold all the cards. I can see why you prefer this approach.What I'm trying to say is this. I'm sure you make your parents proud because you are self sufficient child. However, you're not what men go for. In my opinion, you (and other strong women) have evolved yourself right out of the human race. Not to sound mean or anything, but that's how I genuinely feel.
Wow, I feel sorry for you. I’ve found that secure, confident men generally don’t share your viewpoint. They don’t need to find a woman who is weak to convince themselves they are wanted and desirable. I can assure you that you are wrong when you say that “you’re not what men go for.” It’s astounding to me that you would even make such a blanket statement. While certainly some men (obviously you) may not go for a self sufficient woman, it isn’t all men. I personally find it bizarre when I encounter men like you. You really want a woman who doesn't have the brains to figure out how to pay her basic bills? Those are the types of genes you want to pass on to your offspring?Having this whole independent female attitude will leave you.. well, independent and alone (and rightfully so).
It's your belief that women who can support themselves deserve to be alone? I'm sorry, but my mind is completely blown.
@kls13la
I'm assuming you're fairly new to the group. Generally speaking, most of the women here agree with you. We're just too tired to continue pointing out how silly what you quoted sounds in this day and age. :yawn:0 -
While I have no doubt that castadiva (or any other independent woman) CAN find an intelligent, self-confident man that would appreciate a strong, intelligent woman as Prahasaurus says, I guess I'm left feeling like I don't see a whole lot of those available. Those that are available really do appear to be looking more for that beta female!
As much as I love to give Mike a hard time, I'm not sure I can argue with his statements. Though they are more extreme than necessary, the reality I see matches it, though it sucks. Evolution seems to trump what we'd like.
As a female over 35 and never married, I know I'm far too independent and intelligent to "fall in line appropriately" and be the beta female most men prefer. My male friends have always said that if I ever married, it would be later once men tend to have more confidence, aren't AS wrapped up in looks/ size, and are comfortable with a woman who handles things better than most people (not just men) such that they don't need to feel NEEDED. If that's accurate, then the evolution hasn't changed much. The alpha male looks for a beta female... leaving the beta males and alpha females on the prowl so to speak. There are an awful lot of ALPHA females on SINGLE peeps.... I just find it hard to argue that, though MAN, I would really LOVE to!
ETA: I'm in a grouchy mood, so my response is likely affected by watching several ongoings in my office of this exact situation...
Those men exist, you're just looking in the wrong circles.
Come to karaoke with me next Tuesday, I'll introduce you to a few.
And before anyone goes "Blah blah why aren't you with them?" because the problem isn't that they aren't good, decent men that appreciate a strong woman, the problems exist elsewhere and I'm not going to give you a play by play breakdown of each dude. Just know that for other reasons it wouldn't work.0 -
I am new, and I can't believe what I'm reading! LOL.0
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Most men would rather go for women who possess desirable physical characteristics, but who *can't* support themselves. Therefore, they *need* us to provide for them. We don't want a perfect partner, we want someone who compliments us in hope that our children take the best qualities from each of us. In short, **we don't want to procreate with strong, self sufficient women, however we deeply want our offspring to become that.**
In other words, you want a woman to be wholly dependent on you. If she is dependent on you, you don’t have to worry about her leaving or looking around for something better. You become the center of her universe, no matter how you treat her or what you do – because she has no other choice or options. You then hold all the cards. I can see why you prefer this approach.What I'm trying to say is this. I'm sure you make your parents proud because you are self sufficient child. However, you're not what men go for. In my opinion, you (and other strong women) have evolved yourself right out of the human race. Not to sound mean or anything, but that's how I genuinely feel.
Wow, I feel sorry for you. I’ve found that secure, confident men generally don’t share your viewpoint. They don’t need to find a woman who is weak to convince themselves they are wanted and desirable. I can assure you that you are wrong when you say that “you’re not what men go for.” It’s astounding to me that you would even make such a blanket statement. While certainly some men (obviously you) may not go for a self sufficient woman, it isn’t all men. I personally find it bizarre when I encounter men like you. You really want a woman who doesn't have the brains to figure out how to pay her basic bills? Those are the types of genes you want to pass on to your offspring?Having this whole independent female attitude will leave you.. well, independent and alone (and rightfully so).
It's your belief that women who can support themselves deserve to be alone? I'm sorry, but my mind is completely blown.
@kls13la
I'm assuming you're fairly new to the group. Generally speaking, most of the women here agree with you. We're just too tired to continue pointing out how silly what you quoted sounds in this day and age. :yawn:
My mind continues to be blown. I'm genuinely wondering if Mike isn't a figment of my imagination that I dreamed up because every superhero needs a villain. I'm just disappointed in the cliche nature of my imagination.0 -
I am new, and I can't believe what I'm reading! LOL.
Welcome to single peeps. Most of us are really awesome.
Really.
It's fun to watch everyone worth their weight in salt give 'em a what for. :drinker:
It's normal to be speechless at first. Once you get your words back you can join right in!0 -
Those men exist, you're just looking in the wrong circles.
Come to karaoke with me next Tuesday, I'll introduce you to a few.
And before anyone goes "Blah blah why aren't you with them?" because the problem isn't that they aren't good, decent men that appreciate a strong woman, the problems exist elsewhere and I'm not going to give you a play by play breakdown of each dude. Just know that for other reasons it wouldn't work.
Sounds like you at least have access to quality men, whether they are the right ones for you or perhaps your friends! I love living in NC, but truthfully, the whole southern dynamic leaves a lot to be desired in the quality men department. I love their accents at least but then hear the words coming out with it, haha....
Tuesday Karaoke with you would be awesome and hilarious, no doubt!0 -
So the main lesson learned from reading posts here is this: target women whom you had previously viewed as "out of your league" with confidence. They will resist at first, but your devotion to them will win them over.
Absolutely nailed it. Wordy? Sure. But dead on, nonetheless.0 -
I'm new also and this thread has my wheels spinning.0
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From reading posts here for a few months, one thing seems clear: women will settle, whether they want to admit it or not. Because what they are looking for, above all else, is someone who truly loves them. Sure you have to be a nice guy, and reasonably decent looking (depends on the woman, obviously).
But the good news is that you can be a few steps down on the quality meter in comparison with the woman, but you're totally fine. So long as you are able to show the woman you care for her a lot, ideally relatively early in the relationship. She'll be reluctant at first to seriously date you. But she'll quickly come around, because she will see that you care for her, and that will trump everything else. At least that seems to be the theme of many of the women here:
* Women here who date total jerks who belittle them in public. The women don't know if they should break up with the guy, even though he's a total loser. Why stay? The guy does claim to like them very much, ergo, the women are hooked. Lesson learned: say you love the woman early - or at least show her some token affection - and she'll put up with a lot...
* Women who begin dating a guy even though he's not her type, not really planning to form a serious relationship. But soon we read how the man is "really into her," and lo and behold, she realizes that she might - just might! - be into him, too. A few more weeks of posts and they are a hot item. Quite a few examples of this. Lesson learned: show you really care early and she'll recalibrate her opinion of you.
* Women here are eager for the man to make the first move. Only by being aggressive will you put yourself in a position to date a woman you had previously assumed was out of your league. They key is getting that first date, and for that you must be aggressive! Only then can you show them you're really into them. This technique only woks when you are on a date - you can't claim to really care for a woman before you get that first date!
It's a bit tricky on the first couple of dates, as well, because you need to show her right away that you like her, but don't overdo it on date one. Just be nice, and ask to see her again. Your only goal on date one is to get to date two. Repeat on date two. By date three, you need to make your move: tell her you really care about her. At this point, you are in the driver's seat. She will already be recalibrating everything about you in light of your willingness to care for her.
To recap:
1 - Be aggressive with initial encounters. You think she's out of your league (and let's face it, she really is), but you just need to get that first date!
2 - Be nice on the first date, show her you care, but don't push it. Your primary goal is getting a second date.
3 - Same as point 2. Be nice, but get that third date! She's not yet committed, but you're almost there.
4 - On date three, you tell her how much you care for her. At this point, she has already been on three dates with you, so there is a good deal of cognitive dissonance ("I didn't think he was really my type, and yet I'm on the third date with him, hmmmm"). Plus, your show of real affection will start an elaborate chain reaction with her emotionally that ends in her convincing herself that she cares for you, too!
5 - After date three, she will be messaging her friends and/or posting here about how you have surprised her, how she didn't think you were her type, but you've won her over, etc., etc. Her friends will give lots of positive reinforcement, since they want her to be happy: "Sounds like a great guy, and he's so into you!" Mission accomplished.
So the main lesson learned from reading posts here is this: target women whom you had previously viewed as "out of your league" with confidence. They will resist at first, but your devotion to them will win them over.
--P
Do you think it's too late for me if I've only been on TWO jogging adventures with a woman? You think it'll be weird to ask her out on a real date? I have a feeling I might be in friend zone.0 -
The facts are that women, homosexual, black people have now more rights than before - which makes absolutely no sense if the society wanted to hold on to the previous distribution of power ("heterosexual white male"). Clearly our society is evolving in this direction.
Sure, when the laws were voted, not everyone woke up the next morning suddenly accepting homosexuals, thinking black people should share their daily lives and women should now hold the highest positions of power. So I get there is a fight to be fought.
But mostly, you seem to have started a fight against society as a whole, by thinking slow to change = rejection.
I think you might not live to see the mentalities to change so much that black people, homosexuals, women are considered as pure equals (completely indistinct from a white heterosexual man).
A quick thought for FlimFlam...
Thinking of the UK only, because those are the statistics and facts I have at my fingertips:
According to the 2001 census, 51% of the population is female, just under 10% of the population are non-white, and around 5% of the population identify as non-heterosexual.
Women's suffrage in the UK was first achieved in 1918 on a limited basis, and fully in 1928 - both dates a few decades after the majority of western powers had granted voting rights to women. Many other fundamental rights were legally granted in the mid and late 1800s.
Homosexuality was partially decriminalised in 1967 (only as it applied to men and only in England), and finally achieved equal legal protection in 2000.
Legal discrimination on the basis of race ended in the mid-1960's with several pieces of legislation, hence the lack of an absolute year.
Women make up over half of the population - in fact, they are a majority - and have had full suffrage and theoretically equal rights for nearly 100 years in this country. The other two groups you mention - homosexuals and people of non-Caucasian races - are both minorities, whose rights have been entrenched for a much shorter period of time.
Progress has indeed been made on all of these important fronts, but what does it tell you that you, and many others, consider the continuing fight for equality for over half the population, who have, on paper, had that equality for nearly a century, to be at a similar level of progress and importance as the fight for equal rights for those whose legal position is of much shorter duration, and who represent small minorities within the population?
By any logic, given the number of women, and the length of their enfranchisement, women's rights should be literally decades further down the path to real equality than the causes of either non-white or homosexual UK citizens*. And yet...
I will respond further to your other points later when I have more time.
*Both of whose causes I heartily espouse, in case anyone is thinking this post is intended to be either racist or homophobic. Both groups have fought, and will undoubtedly continue to fight hard, yet just, battles. Just pointing out the essential differences between the groups FlimFlam, and others around the world, have lumped together.0 -
Do you think it's too late for me if I've only been on TWO jogging adventures with a woman? You think it'll be weird to ask her out on a real date? I have a feeling I might be in friend zone.
Janard, Go for it!! You never know unless you ask! :flowerforyou:0 -
I'm new also and this thread has my wheels spinning.
:drinker: Welcome!0
