Coming from the South,

you are over analyzing opening doors and "southern hospitality".

Women have opened doors for me down here. (serious)

It is a culture thing.

EDIT: Some might even refer to it as manners, haha!

2ND EDIT: To clarify, it has less to do with flirting, and more to do with being in the South.

PLEASE men, come to my house and take out the garbage, fix my car, take me out and pay for dinner, open doors, and provide me with protection. I would love it.
But you also have to be in touch with your feelings, ridiculously intelligent, emotionally vulnerable (but still masculine), compliment me profusely, be ambitious and successful, financially secure, and yet spontaneous, charming and witty.

Now.. what is my obligation in response?
Surely men aren't expected to do all of this for the simple joy of it. What am I exchanging all of that for? Stroking of their ego? Cooking? Sex?

I'm totally on board, I just want to know what my role is.

I think it just comes down to being polite with manners rather than a bitch. It doesn't matter who holds the door for me, I will say "thank you" not "I could have done that myself".

PLEASE men, come to my house and take out the garbage, fix my car, take me out and pay for dinner, open doors, and provide me with protection. I would love it.
But you also have to be in touch with your feelings, ridiculously intelligent, emotionally vulnerable (but still masculine), compliment me profusely, be ambitious and successful, financially secure, and yet spontaneous, charming and witty.

Now.. what is my obligation in response?
Surely men aren't expected to do all of this for the simple joy of it. What am I exchanging all of that for? Stroking of their ego? Cooking? Sex?

I'm totally on board, I just want to know what my role is.

Well said

I am an only child raised to be independent. That's pretty much why I feel I'll never get married. I don't NEED to. I open doors for everyone regardless of sex, let people pay for me when they offer, but I also reciprocate. I guess I've always felt it's 50/50 in the outside world. Give and take.

My lasted relationship is 50/50. I have my chores, he has his. He'll pay sometimes, and I'll pay sometimes. I've just been offered a job with better potential and benefits, but less pay and I'm going to take it for my future, so he might be paying more after that. He's just happy for the opportunity for me to have a better future.

I don't think it has anything to do with North vs. South, just be nice to everyone...

PLEASE men, come to my house and take out the garbage, fix my car, take me out and pay for dinner, open doors, and provide me with protection. I would love it.
But you also have to be in touch with your feelings, ridiculously intelligent, emotionally vulnerable (but still masculine), compliment me profusely, be ambitious and successful, financially secure, and yet spontaneous, charming and witty.

Now.. what is my obligation in response?
Surely men aren't expected to do all of this for the simple joy of it. What am I exchanging all of that for? Stroking of their ego? Cooking? Sex?

I'm totally on board, I just want to know what my role is.

This is a pretty good answer. Like anybody, we just like to feel wanted. We know you CAN open doors by yourself, we are just trying to be nice and make you feel comfortable. And to not be rude.

And yeah it doesn't need to turn into a north/south argument. It's been a while since I've spent any time in the south, but people around here generally don't let doors close in people's faces. I think the south might be a little more old school and traditional about some things though.

I'm curious: Has anyone other than me heard a woman be rude to a guy who tries to open a door for her or otherwise be helpful? I mean things like "I can get it myself." I used to do this, and heard many women do it too (back in the day). I am surprised that none of the guys responded to that part of my post with how much that bothered them. Maybe it doesn't happen anymore?

Actually, no. Being an independent woman and being rude are very different things.

I tend to agree that so much of the northern / southern thing is cultural. I do what I do because it works for me and the area in which I live... That isn't to say one way is right or wrong. There is a lot to be learned from each model.

My dad went out of his way to show my sister and I that women are an equal part of society, capable of anything because they are human and to not let our gender identity stop us from accomplishing whatever we wanted.

He also taught us to be polite not-as$holes. When someone holds the door for you, you thank them. If you see someone coming, you hold the door for them. I have been offered a seat on the trolley a couple of times, once I took it because I was carrying many things. Usually I found a polite way to refuse as I did not need it, though I expressed that I appreciated the gesture. I have also offered my seat to someone that has seemed burdened by objects/pregnancy/age and have for the most part been met with mutual common courtesy.

The closest I've gotten to someone getting snippy is when I hold the door and the person just blows by as though it's expected that I do so. Then I fight the urge to trip them and remind myself I'm doing it because it's right and not because I should get recognition.

I have lived mostly in Germany (Bavaria) and So Cal so I can't say whether it's a north/south/west/east whatever. I believe most people have acknowledged there is a difference between someone being polite and someone being sexist in this day and age. Feminists are not the bra-burning-man-hating-never-shaving-spite-lesbians of the bygone era (there are a few relics, don't get me wrong). A lot of people that identify as feminist are still perfectly capable of being wonderful, loving and patient human beings.

I would say the problem isn't the that women are independent and don't need men - the problem is the women who are so insecure about it that they have to constantly assert it (especially with the example that Run gave).

Something that always bothered me (that isn't an issue now that I'm in my 30s) was when young men would extend courtesies to me (as a young woman) and ignore the other women around (like my mom). Gross. Opposite of manners.

I have witnessed this alot. If I am holding the door open for someone, I may end up holding it open for 10 people becuase that many flooded in. I wouldn't hold it open for, say, my mom, then close it on someone's face behind her becuase my duty was done.
I totally agree.

I would have no problem being receptive..I just think I would be shocked.
Its certainly not the culture of men here to offer to do things for me. My friends seem to have married a few men that are very much like that but they were snagged ages ago. The ones left over...are not the ones offering to help out or be a guy who pays for anything or opens car doors. I've met probably 3 or 4 and I accepted gracefully their gentlemanly behavior.
Now door opening sure since I've lost the wt..that happens. but all the other stuff nope.

I would have no problem being receptive..I just think I would be shocked.
Its certainly not the culture of men here to offer to do things for me. My friends seem to have married a few men that are very much like that but they were snagged ages ago. The ones left over...are not the ones offering to help out or be a guy who pays for anything or opens car doors. I've met probably 3 or 4 and I accepted gracefully their gentlemanly behavior.
Now door opening sure since I've lost the wt..that happens. but all the other stuff nope.

This is because Canadian men have no manners, romance, charm or gentlemanly behaviours. They are too busy watching hockey and drinking beer. Sigh.

LOL!! so true... Can't help but throw in that the Flames beat the Canucks last night :P (one in a million I know, but I will take it)

I graciously accept, with a smile and a 'thank you', any guy that offers to be a gent

Makes me feel good. Makes him feel good. Win-win!! :bigsmile:

Perfectly worded and true.

I think you're over-analyzing this. I'm not sure reading books is the way to go to truly understand the culture of the south, at least as it pertains to men. But if you insist, I recommend Absalom Absalom or Light in August, by Faulkner. Beats pop psychology hands down.

Also, I'm not sure what it means to be a southerner any longer. I was born and raised in the south (Virginia, later North Carolina). Both of those very southern states are now overrun with northerners. Usually having relocated as companies look for cheaper labor, lower tax burdens, less unionization, etc. In my (granted upscale) neighborhood in NC, I was the only southerner on the block. I had to go to the local diner to hear a southern accent. And it was one of the few places in my town that served biscuits and gravy, grits, etc. Don't ask for a cappuccino, they'll look at you funny. :-)

I suppose there are still parts of Mississippi and Alabama that are still traditionally southern, but as a true Virginian I always thought those states the worst of the south: more racism, less culture. Then again, Faulkner is from Mississippi, so perhaps I'm a hypocrite...

And by the way, European men are also quite gentlemanly, as least when it comes to opening doors for the ladies. I can't imagine a European woman being offended when a man opens a door for her. But then again, I can't imagine an American woman being offended, either. At least not one that I would care to be around. It's just a door, after all. Not the Spanish Inquisition.

--P

I don't know. I've dated a lot of northern women and not very many of them (if any) refused to let me pay or open doors for them. If that is a trend I don't see it happening anywhere around here.

With that said I would probably see any behavior like that as one of four things:
1. She doesn't like me very much.
2. She's a b**ch
3. She's a feminist
4. She's trying way too hard to display her independence.

Either way, none of those are really attractive and I'd probably stay away. Unless she was really hot.

YUP ^^^^