Increase or decrease fat to overcome a plateau?
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Jasmine_James
Posts: 188 Member
I have been doing ketosis for a while. I lost 15 pounds in the first month (went from 175 to about 160) but I've basically been stuck ever since. I've been doing low carb (20-50 g a day) and usually high protein (80-100) and moderate fat (60-80). But after doing some research on MFP and online, I am now thinking I should flip those protein and fat numbers. I'm going to try Bulletproof Coffee and just lowering my protein.
However, in my research I came across this website that was super helpful in explaining but on his plateau page he says on reason for a plateau and to overcome it is: "Eating more calories than their body can handle without storing (this is usually the result of a very high fat intake - for me, too much dairy). Although I feel eating very low carb with lots of saturated fat is the healthiest way to eat, I've found for myself, I have to cut back on my fat intake in order to lose weight. I think once you reach the weight you want to be, you can add the fat back in reasonable amounts."
http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/weight-loss-plateau.html
So now I'm really confused. If I avoid dairy, that leaves me with just fatty meats, avocado, and coconut oils (and other oils) as my main source of fat. I don't know how I'd reach necessary fat numbers each day without cream and cheese.
Advice, please.
Thanks in advance!
UPDATE:
The owner of the site above actually just emailed me with the guidance I needed (pretty cool to get a reply within minutes):
To answer your question, my advice does seem counterintuitive... but I'll explain further: most stored fat is a saturated fat called triglyceride. In order to mobilize these fatty acids out of the fat cells to be burned, insulin has to be low, which is the basis for the success of a ketogenic diet. The other thing is that the fats coming in from the diet have to be low enough so that the body doesn't burn them first for fuel. So the success key is to keep carb low enough, and protein at levels appropriate for your body mass, and then lower fat intake so that some of the fat burned for fuel comes from body stores instead of the diet. Does that help?
The protein level should be at about .6 per pound of ideal body weight.. so if you want to weigh 130 that would be about 78 grams/day (a range is good say, 75-85 per day). It depends on how muscular you are.. men can eat more protein, because they have more muscle mass.
I lose faster if I keep my fat grams under 60, and carbs below 30 but that’s a little difficult, and I’m really carb sensitive.
However, in my research I came across this website that was super helpful in explaining but on his plateau page he says on reason for a plateau and to overcome it is: "Eating more calories than their body can handle without storing (this is usually the result of a very high fat intake - for me, too much dairy). Although I feel eating very low carb with lots of saturated fat is the healthiest way to eat, I've found for myself, I have to cut back on my fat intake in order to lose weight. I think once you reach the weight you want to be, you can add the fat back in reasonable amounts."
http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/weight-loss-plateau.html
So now I'm really confused. If I avoid dairy, that leaves me with just fatty meats, avocado, and coconut oils (and other oils) as my main source of fat. I don't know how I'd reach necessary fat numbers each day without cream and cheese.
Advice, please.
Thanks in advance!
UPDATE:
The owner of the site above actually just emailed me with the guidance I needed (pretty cool to get a reply within minutes):
To answer your question, my advice does seem counterintuitive... but I'll explain further: most stored fat is a saturated fat called triglyceride. In order to mobilize these fatty acids out of the fat cells to be burned, insulin has to be low, which is the basis for the success of a ketogenic diet. The other thing is that the fats coming in from the diet have to be low enough so that the body doesn't burn them first for fuel. So the success key is to keep carb low enough, and protein at levels appropriate for your body mass, and then lower fat intake so that some of the fat burned for fuel comes from body stores instead of the diet. Does that help?
The protein level should be at about .6 per pound of ideal body weight.. so if you want to weigh 130 that would be about 78 grams/day (a range is good say, 75-85 per day). It depends on how muscular you are.. men can eat more protein, because they have more muscle mass.
I lose faster if I keep my fat grams under 60, and carbs below 30 but that’s a little difficult, and I’m really carb sensitive.
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Replies
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Hi Jasmine,
I peeked at your diary and I don't think you're eating enough calories. When I eat 1250 net calories or less consistently, I tend to not lose much weight or completely stall. My dairy is open for you to view if you haven't already. My carb range is about the same as yours and I try to eat over 100 grams of protein in a day. I'm 5'5" and shoot for 1300-1450 net calories in a day.
Also, when I've plateaued I just stay at what I'm doing for a couple of weeks. I find I usually will break through it. My body was just adjusting itself. In the few instances where I haven't broken through a plateau after a couple weeks, I then look for ways to make adjustments such as adding more exercise.0 -
Thank you! I have been wondering if 1200 is the right number or not. I'm also 5'5 (well, 5'5.5). Am 160 and just can't seem to get my body into the 150s. I hit 159 one day on the scale, but that was a month ago.
It's a little scary to think about eating more, but since I'm working out so much now, I might go ahead and give that a try.
Thanks again for the input -- I get so overwhelmed/confused, I really appreciate a fresh perspective.0 -
I had a topic a few weeks ago on this:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/914194-macro-targets-x-post-from-reddit-xxketo
For me: eat more fat! (I target 75% of calories from fat, 20% from protein, 5% from carbs).
I try to eat until satiated, and don't stress the calories (well, at least until they are above 1500 or so).0 -
Macadamias are good non-dairy source of fat. 1/4 cup = 24g of fat and 2 net carbs. I've "shocked" my system by eating whatever I wanted for two days, then ate high fats, moderate protein and < 20 carbs. Plenty of water as well. It is scary to up the calories but it is necessary to consume a healthy amount of calories every day. Best wishes.0
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I might get put up against the wall and shot for this one but after about 10 weeks in ketosis I stalled and didn't feel good like I previously did. The caveat here is that this works for me and of course our bodies and situations are all different but...
I found just taking a few days off, getting some carbs and glycogen back in the tank, hitting the reset switch and starting again worked wonders. My personal feeling is that if we stick to something for long enough the body adapts and begins to think "hey are carbs ever coming? maybe I should hold onto this fat as I might run out and die" so we need to have some every now and then to keep the body guessing and happy to give up that fat.
The only downside is induction flu again. I found after doing this two or three times though for me the flu became less and less of an issue and ketosis started much more quickly.
I dont want to preach this as what worked for me may not work for you but it may be worth a try, especially if you can time it around an event or social situation where you might need to eat carbs anyway so you are not doing it twice.0 -
Very interesting article: I particularly noticed this portion:
"Sometimes, the body may just be adjusting itself after a period of intense weight loss. I've read in several articles that the body will replace lost fat with water, as it adjusts to weight loss. Then all of sudden, it will release the extra water, and the dieter will experience a "whoosh" in weight loss - say 5 pounds in two days."
I've experienced that.0 -
I wish I could try that strategy. But, diabetes isn't that forgiving.I might get put up against the wall and shot for this one but after about 10 weeks in ketosis I stalled and didn't feel good like I previously did. The caveat here is that this works for me and of course our bodies and situations are all different but...
I found just taking a few days off, getting some carbs and glycogen back in the tank, hitting the reset switch and starting again worked wonders. My personal feeling is that if we stick to something for long enough the body adapts and begins to think "hey are carbs ever coming? maybe I should hold onto this fat as I might run out and die" so we need to have some every now and then to keep the body guessing and happy to give up that fat.
The only downside is induction flu again. I found after doing this two or three times though for me the flu became less and less of an issue and ketosis started much more quickly.
I dont want to preach this as what worked for me may not work for you but it may be worth a try, especially if you can time it around an event or social situation where you might need to eat carbs anyway so you are not doing it twice.0 -
Ah I am sorry to hear things are not that simple for you Laura.
In that case ill zip it
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For me (also a diabetic, like laura) I keep my fat HIGH, my carbs very-low (under 5% of calories on sedentary days, around 7% on a regular day and as much as 10% on an extremely-active day) and my protein moderate to my needs.
For me that means protein is no-more than 25% (often closer to 20%) when dieting and always under 30% when mass-building. The rest of my diet is fat - which if you do the math means sometimes, yes, my fat intake is 75% of my calories.
High-fat/low-carb/moderate-protein is the ketogenic ratio that allows keto-adaptation. (There is also a high-protein ketogenic diet, but it doesn't usually allow for keto-adaptation). The "moderate" protein will depend on your needs, not just your muscle mass.
For someone who exercises hard 60-90 minutes a day, 6 days a week, I need more protein than someone that exercises 30 minutes a day 3x a week. For someone engaged in strength-training for hypertrophy (muscle gains) they need more than someone strength training in an effort to retain lean mass while dieting.
Even professional bodybuilders, though, rarely need protein intake above 30% of their calories. For keto dieters taking in excess protein (above what their body really needs for function/repair, not excess calories per se) means that protein is converted to glucose . . . which is simply NOT optimum for ketosis.
My suggestions for most sedentary keto dieters is 75 / 20 / 5 for fat/protein/carb (especially important if the sedentary dieter has diabetes or very impaired insulin-sensitivity). 70 / 23-25 / 5-7 for active dieters, and 65 / 25-30 / 5-10 for those engaged in daily strenuous/vigorous activity.0 -
Well written. Excellent advice.For me (also a diabetic, like laura) I keep my fat HIGH, my carbs very-low (under 5% of calories on sedentary days, around 7% on a regular day and as much as 10% on an extremely-active day) and my protein moderate to my needs.
For me that means protein is no-more than 25% (often closer to 20%) when dieting and always under 30% when mass-building. The rest of my diet is fat - which if you do the math means sometimes, yes, my fat intake is 75% of my calories.
High-fat/low-carb/moderate-protein is the ketogenic ratio that allows keto-adaptation. (There is also a high-protein ketogenic diet, but it doesn't usually allow for keto-adaptation). The "moderate" protein will depend on your needs, not just your muscle mass.
For someone who exercises hard 60-90 minutes a day, 6 days a week, I need more protein than someone that exercises 30 minutes a day 3x a week. For someone engaged in strength-training for hypertrophy (muscle gains) they need more than someone strength training in an effort to retain lean mass while dieting.
Even professional bodybuilders, though, rarely need protein intake above 30% of their calories. For keto dieters taking in excess protein (above what their body really needs for function/repair, not excess calories per se) means that protein is converted to glucose . . . which is simply NOT optimum for ketosis.
My suggestions for most sedentary keto dieters is 75 / 20 / 5 for fat/protein/carb (especially important if the sedentary dieter has diabetes or very impaired insulin-sensitivity). 70 / 23-25 / 5-7 for active dieters, and 65 / 25-30 / 5-10 for those engaged in daily strenuous/vigorous activity.0 -
Thanks for all the advice. I've been doing 70-20-10 (give or take) for a few weeks now and I do believe it's helping. I finally got into the 150s. Weight loss is slow but fairly steady for me, around 1 pound a week. I also increased my calories to 1400-ish. I'm working out quite a bit, so I think that's helped.
@wigglingallth -- I think you have a good point that whatever we do, if we do it for too long eventually our bodies will get savvy to the plan and hold onto fat. I have a destination wedding to attent in 4 weeks, so I think I'll stay the course for now, but I do plan to indulge in some carbs during that break for a few days. And between now and then, one day a week I might up my carbs to 40-50 g rather than 20-25 g so that I have one day during the week where I'm getting more.0 -
I'm not sure that this will help or mean anything but I've noticed for myself if I keep my soduim under 1500 mg, 8-12 cups of water the number's are always less when I at the completion of my log. I have high blood pressure & I struggle with keeping my sodium at or under 1500 mg.0
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As another person noted your calories are quite low. I would recommend caculating your TDEE and taking a cut from there. You can do custom settings on MFP. I am 5' 4.5" and I am at 131 lbs eating around 1,500 - 1,700 calories and getting little exercise at the momment while I nurse a heal injuring. I use to have my calories set to 1310 (set by MFP), but after finding the group "In Place of a Road Map" on MFP I upped everything. They are not a low carb, paleo or primal group, but are all about getting enough calories to nourish your body and feed your lean muscle mass. I have found the group to be very helpful. You can see a bit of an increase in weight for a bit while your body adjusts to the increase in calories -- but then you usually start loosing again. It is good to increase your calories slowly. Here are a couple of links.
Good luck!
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/717858-spreadsheet-bmr-tdee-and-deficit-calcs-macros-hrm
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/732180-spreadsheet-improvement-on-activity-level-input-request0
