Anyone gain weight while eating under/at their BMR?
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My most recent test(s) were higher than I believe is accurate. They indicated 1680 and then 1560 later, when I asked for a retest due to the number being what I considered ridiculously high for me, compared to a previous test. The testing conditions were not properly set up - poor prep/pre-test instructions (the first time I had a few almonds about 2 hours before the test), not relaxing back, 10 minute test. The retest I disregarded her poor instructions and followed the instructions from a prior test I had done; I made sure it was at least 36 hours since I exercised and I ended up fasting all day because she scheduled the test for 6pm. Even with all of that, I still believe testing conditions to have been poor, and I don't believe the 1560 that came up.
The prior test I had done just over a year ago - 15 minutes, with good pre-test instructions, able to relax. That came out to 1164. I trust that number because I was undereating, which then was why I (stupidly) continued to keep calories so low.
Is it possible that I lowered it below that?
Ouch, late day test with long fasting, I'd be grumpy with them!
I doubt you had such poor testing conditions to cause 400 cal increase, even standing isn't that much difference.
But yes you could lower RMR even further. Undereating and endurance cardio combined could do that, or either individually too.
Now, what doesn't show up in even the best RMR test is the other thing that happens when under-eating for level of activity that studies have found. Your body slows down other activity throughout the day that burns calories. Just so it has enough for the BMR functions it can't slow down enough. So what used to be a 2000 calorie typical burn day with say 400 cal exercise burn, becomes 1800. So your exercise really only got you an extra 200 burned because of that daily slowdown.
That's why when people start eating more they typically report feeling more energetic - they are, and burning more.
It's why eating 200 more calories say could have you burning 400 more daily, net burn increase of 200 calories.
I would base the math on the last test no matter what. And that's RMR, so it should be converted to BMR to base math on.
My spreadsheet does that on the TDEE Deficit tab once you have your stats in the Simple Setup tab. Along with suggested bodyfat% that would cause that BMR.
So on the Simple Setup tab you would substitute the BF% for measured one, just so the BMR comes out correctly. UNLESS, the BMR is lower than potential - never eat to lower, it'll only force it lower.
Here's case study of what some did to themselves, and got out of it.
A similar case study was published by Jampolis (2004).
A 51 year old patient complained of a 15 lb weight gain over the last year despite beginning a strenuous triathlon and marathon training program (2 hours per day, 5-6 days per week).
A 3 day diet analysis estimated a daily intake of only 1000-1200 Calories.
An indirect calorimetry revealed a resting metabolic rate of 950 Calories (28% below predicted for age, height, weight, and gender).
After medications and medical conditions such as hypothyroidism and diabetes where ruled out, the final diagnosis was over-training and undereating. The following treatment was recommended:
Increase daily dietary intake by approximately 100 Calories per week to a goal of 1500 calories
32% protein; 35% carbohydrates; 33% fat
Consume 5-6 small meals per day
Small amounts of protein with each meal or snack
Choose high fiber starches
Select mono- and poly- unsaturated fats
Restrict consumption of starch with evening meals unless focused around training
Take daily multi-vitamin and mineral supplement
Perform whole body isometric resistance training 2 times per week
After 6 weeks the patient's resting metabolism increased 35% to 1282 Calories per day (only 2% below predicted).
The patient also decreases percent fat from 37% to 34%, a loss of 5 lbs of body fat.
Jampolis MB (2004) Weight Gain - Marathon Runner / Triathlete. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, 36(5) S148.0 -
If gaining or not losing while netting under your BMR, then that ain't your BMR obviously. Perhaps made worse by really bad estimate of calories burned not only in exercise but also in daily activity (TDEE level guess), combined with too safe of estimates of food eaten.
"Bad" as in over estimating or under estimating... or both (under for food, over for exercise)?
I weigh and measure everything I eat. On the rare occasion that I eat out, I select carefully and do my best to estimate - it's probably not perfect, but I don't think it should make a huge negative impact, since everything else is weighed/measured.0 -
If gaining or not losing while netting under your BMR, then that ain't your BMR obviously. Perhaps made worse by really bad estimate of calories burned not only in exercise but also in daily activity (TDEE level guess), combined with too safe of estimates of food eaten.
"Bad" as in over estimating or under estimating... or both (under for food, over for exercise)?
I weigh and measure everything I eat. On the rare occasion that I eat out, I select carefully and do my best to estimate - it's probably not perfect, but I don't think it should make a huge negative impact, since everything else is weighed/measured.
In regards to calories burned, over estimate.
In regards to eating level, under estimate.0 -
If gaining or not losing while netting under your BMR, then that ain't your BMR obviously. Perhaps made worse by really bad estimate of calories burned not only in exercise but also in daily activity (TDEE level guess), combined with too safe of estimates of food eaten.
"Bad" as in over estimating or under estimating... or both (under for food, over for exercise)?
I weigh and measure everything I eat. On the rare occasion that I eat out, I select carefully and do my best to estimate - it's probably not perfect, but I don't think it should make a huge negative impact, since everything else is weighed/measured.
In regards to calories burned, over estimate.
In regards to eating level, under estimate.
That's what I figured. Thanks!
So, is it really possible to make errors of 600-800+ calories on a consistent basis? I'm asking totally honestly.
In my case, if my RMR is really 1560, as tested, and I was weighing/measuring food to 400-1000 (when I was putting on weight), I'd have been making - sometimes - 1000 calorie errors.
When I entered my info into the Simple Setup tab, and then used the TDEE Deficit to find that the RMR from my most recent test is that of someone with 27.4% BF - my actual is supposed to be 32%. The Cunningham RMR estimate is 1484. Would that be considered close enough?0 -
That's what I figured. Thanks!
So, is it really possible to make errors of 600-800+ calories on a consistent basis? I'm asking totally honestly.
In my case, if my RMR is really 1560, as tested, and I was weighing/measuring food to 400-1000 (when I was putting on weight), I'd have been making - sometimes - 1000 calorie errors.
When I entered my info into the Simple Setup tab, and then used the TDEE Deficit to find that the RMR from my most recent test is that of someone with 27.4% BF - my actual is supposed to be 32%. The Cunningham RMR estimate is 1484. Would that be considered close enough?
Depends on amount of exercise, but not likely.
So it would appear your NEAT activity is a whole lot less than expected, you have very narrow range between tested RMR and TDEE.
Now studies have shown when undereating, your body decreases NEAT in response to leave enough calories for BMR, because you can only slow down those functions so much.
Combine that with HRM calories being inflated, and yes you could easily end up with no deficit.
One interesting case study (using rough figures from memory because it was not round numbers) was exactly where a person created 1000 cal deficit from calculated TDEE, and an estimated 500 extra in exercise. They didn't have that much to lose for healthy weight, but negative side effects (hair loss, skin problems) made them go to Dr, who was involved with university and equipment.
By the time they got into a lab for some testing, their BMR was measured 10% lower than expected for their LBM, their RMR was measured about 25% less, and their daily activity 75% less than expected for what they did.
So the slowdown in metabolism robbed much of that on paper 1000 cal deficit which may have been more or less in reality to start with.
And then their TDEE suppressed (because Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis NEAT lowered) wiped out rest of it.
So what happen in essence, they slowed their metabolism down as one effect.
Then they slowed their daily activity down burning less.
So even if the 500 cal burn for exercise was correct, they in essence moved 750 calories less during the whole day, and then combined with a slowed metabolism, they had no real deficit.
So you think you have a deficit in that situation, and eat a bit extra for weekend meals, or vacation, ect. What happens to extra calories? Fat added, because it was extra over maintenance, not extra over a deficit. Do that for weeks on end, you gain weight despite being on a diet.
Seeing that can happen, I'm picturing some level or combo of that happening with you.
So I'd start with your tested RMR as assumed correct because it's higher than calculated RMR based on BF%, and base goals on that higher figure.
As you found, that means the adjusted BF% is less than the calculator's estimate.
Now, this means down the road, we are going to assume your RMR for your measured LBM stays the same. If LBM stays the same, RMR stays the same.
So you'll have to do this when measurements change, if your measured BF% changes.
I have to do this too because my RMR is much lower from endurance cardio (perhaps I should think of a way to make this easier on next sheet update).
1 - So on the Simple Setup tab, enter the avg BF% from the calculations.
2 - Now go to Progress tab and log in current stats but NOT BMR/TDEE/TDEG.
3 - Take your tested RMR / LBM = calories per lb of LBM. I'd enter this figure over under the Eaten Daily column for tracking.
Now, if LBM changes too much, you'll use that same calorie per lb LBM to get new RMR figure.
4 - Now go TDEE Deficit tab.
Enter in right now your tested RMR (in the future if LBM changes too much, the new RMR figure you calculated).
Now you see the adjusted BF% you'll need to use.
5 - Back to Simple Setup tab.
Change the BF% cell to that adjusted amount. Now a better Katch BMR will be used for math.
Update Activity Calc if needed.
6 - Back to Progress tab.
You can enter in BMR, TDEE, TDEG now.
Yes, tad convoluted, but if you can retain your LBM, than your RMR would not change, only the adjusted BF% from the TDEE Deficit tab would change as weight is lost.
Just read through that list to see what is being done. Few steps merely for logging best info, few steps so the math is based on tested stats.
Follow steps mentioned under Your Results to increase your eating level slowly, I'd do 100 extra daily for week at time.
This will allow you to start on high side of deficits, because you hopefully know you can't keep lowering chasing a falling metabolism.
And yes, I'm already seeing where I can put in a cell on the Simple Setup tab for RMR and do the math automatically, and still make logging the results easy enough. Just need to find a place to put it.
I'm thinking up with the BF calculator, since that's what it would influence.0 -
One interesting case study (using rough figures from memory because it was not round numbers) was exactly where a person created 1000 cal deficit from calculated TDEE, and an estimated 500 extra in exercise. They didn't have that much to lose for healthy weight, but negative side effects (hair loss, skin problems) made them go to Dr, who was involved with university and equipment.
By the time they got into a lab for some testing, their BMR was measured 10% lower than expected for their LBM, their RMR was measured about 25% less, and their daily activity 75% less than expected for what they did.
So the slowdown in metabolism robbed much of that on paper 1000 cal deficit which may have been more or less in reality to start with.
And then their TDEE suppressed (because Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis NEAT lowered) wiped out rest of it.
So what happen in essence, they slowed their metabolism down as one effect.
Then they slowed their daily activity down burning less.
So even if the 500 cal burn for exercise was correct, they in essence moved 750 calories less during the whole day, and then combined with a slowed metabolism, they had no real deficit.
So you think you have a deficit in that situation, and eat a bit extra for weekend meals, or vacation, ect. What happens to extra calories? Fat added, because it was extra over maintenance, not extra over a deficit. Do that for weeks on end, you gain weight despite being on a diet.
Seeing that can happen, I'm picturing some level or combo of that happening with you.
Thank you so much for all of this info and all of your input!! The above, at least, makes a little sense to me. I swear, I thought I was somehow magically violating the laws of thermodynamics.So I'd start with your tested RMR as assumed correct because it's higher than calculated RMR based on BF%, and base goals on that higher figure.
...
1 - So on the Simple Setup tab, enter the avg BF% from the calculations.
2 - Now go to Progress tab and log in current stats but NOT BMR/TDEE/TDEG.
3 - Take your tested RMR / LBM = calories per lb of LBM. I'd enter this figure over under the Eaten Daily column for tracking.
Now, if LBM changes too much, you'll use that same calorie per lb LBM to get new RMR figure.
4 - Now go TDEE Deficit tab.
Enter in right now your tested RMR (in the future if LBM changes too much, the new RMR figure you calculated).
Now you see the adjusted BF% you'll need to use.
5 - Back to Simple Setup tab.
Change the BF% cell to that adjusted amount. Now a better Katch BMR will be used for math.
Update Activity Calc if needed.
6 - Back to Progress tab.
You can enter in BMR, TDEE, TDEG now.
Yes, tad convoluted, but if you can retain your LBM, than your RMR would not change, only the adjusted BF% from the TDEE Deficit tab would change as weight is lost.
Just read through that list to see what is being done. Few steps merely for logging best info, few steps so the math is based on tested stats.
Follow steps mentioned under Your Results to increase your eating level slowly, I'd do 100 extra daily for week at time.
This will allow you to start on high side of deficits, because you hopefully know you can't keep lowering chasing a falling metabolism.
How high do I ultimately want to increase my calories? To net my BMR indicated on the spreadsheet? I don't have a HRM, and can't really afford one right now. I was using MFP's exercise calorie estimates (even though I was rarely to never eating exercise calories back) and when I did a little experiment, manually taking my heart rate and plugging it in to an online HR calculator, the burn came up super close; it also came up super close (within 3 calories) on the chart on the spreadsheet.0 -
How high do I ultimately want to increase my calories? To net my BMR indicated on the spreadsheet? I don't have a HRM, and can't really afford one right now. I was using MFP's exercise calorie estimates (even though I was rarely to never eating exercise calories back) and when I did a little experiment, manually taking my heart rate and plugging it in to an online HR calculator, the burn came up super close; it also came up super close (within 3 calories) on the chart on the spreadsheet.
The goal is to whatever the TDEG says. Actually, if undereating for a while, the TDEE eventually.
In the end, you'll be netting over your BMR on avg, some days in reality might be lower, but on avg, above.
After all, do you really want to leave your body with ONLY the amount of calories it would like to burn if you slept all day?
Where's the extra energy needed for repairing what your exercise caused? Or hair and nails growing? (those aren't functions of BMR)
You be honest in the Activity Calculator, and since it's a week's worth of routine avg back out daily, your exactly calorie burn on a specific workout (which a HRM wasn't going to give you anyway, 35% off potential for women with expensive HRM) doesn't matter. The avg method balances back out.0 -
You be honest in the Activity Calculator, and since it's a week's worth of routine avg back out daily, your exactly calorie burn on a specific workout (which a HRM wasn't going to give you anyway, 35% off potential for women with expensive HRM) doesn't matter. The avg method balances back out.
Will average TDEE goal be accurate, even if my activity isn't always 100% consistent from week to week? My current activities are power yoga 3-4x/week, dance 2x/week, walking 30-60+ minutes per day. Sometimes, I might miss a class due to a studio's holiday schedule, etc... or I might even double up some days - throw in a hike after yoga, yoga+dance...
I was adding an Insanity workout into the mix here and there to try to retain some of the endurance level I had achieved (since I saw nothing else for all that hard work!).
Will it all balance?
Thanks again! Your input has been invaluable.0 -
Will average TDEE goal be accurate, even if my activity isn't always 100% consistent from week to week? My current activities are power yoga 3-4x/week, dance 2x/week, walking 30-60+ minutes per day. Sometimes, I might miss a class due to a studio's holiday schedule, etc... or I might even double up some days - throw in a hike after yoga, yoga+dance...
I was adding an Insanity workout into the mix here and there to try to retain some of the endurance level I had achieved (since I saw nothing else for all that hard work!).
Will it all balance?
Thanks again! Your input has been invaluable.
Under Your Results in the sheet are the guidelines if you miss a planned workout using TDEE deficit method, and if you make it back up.
So if yoga is really 3 or 4 times, use 3.5 x minutes for weekly time. Walking is 45 min unless you know you are always closer to one end of range than the other. If there is always 1 or 2 Insanity workouts a week at some point, then include those minutes of high cardio.
Anything you throw in totally extra, log it as estimated calorie burn minus same deficit the TDEG is giving you, and eat it back that day.0 -
So I'd start with your tested RMR as assumed correct because it's higher than calculated RMR based on BF%, and base goals on that higher figure.
1 - So on the Simple Setup tab, enter the avg BF% from the calculations.
2 - Now go to Progress tab and log in current stats but NOT BMR/TDEE/TDEG.
3 - Take your tested RMR / LBM = calories per lb of LBM. I'd enter this figure over under the Eaten Daily column for tracking.
Now, if LBM changes too much, you'll use that same calorie per lb LBM to get new RMR figure.
4 - Now go TDEE Deficit tab.
Enter in right now your tested RMR (in the future if LBM changes too much, the new RMR figure you calculated).
Now you see the adjusted BF% you'll need to use.
5 - Back to Simple Setup tab.
Change the BF% cell to that adjusted amount. Now a better Katch BMR will be used for math.
Update Activity Calc if needed.
6 - Back to Progress tab.
You can enter in BMR, TDEE, TDEG now.
Yes, tad convoluted, but if you can retain your LBM, than your RMR would not change, only the adjusted BF% from the TDEE Deficit tab would change as weight is lost.
Just read through that list to see what is being done. Few steps merely for logging best info, few steps so the math is based on tested stats.
Ok, based on this being done by myself and more than a few others, and seeing how many are getting RMR tests now, I did go ahead and update the spreadsheet.
I'd download a fresh copy since just starting to use it. Same link as above.
Below the Bodyfat % cell (and use what avg calc came up with, no tweaking), is a place to put your tested RMR.
If it's too low, it'll tell you to remove it, don't suppress an already suppressed metabolism basically.
But yours was higher.
So the BMR will be calculated on that tested RMR now. And it will reflect correctly on the Progress tab for better logging your stats. (I'd still input your tested RMR in there somewhere, so you can see how the cal / lb of LBM works out).
None of the steps above need be done, unless you just want to visually see what the calculated RMR would be based on BF%, then just look at the TDEE Deficit tab.
But Simple Setup tab stays with stats and measurements, and uses the best.0
