So this fat business.....

ShannonKirton
ShannonKirton Posts: 304 Member
I've been thinking about the increase in fats that everyone is always recommending and I just wanted to make sure I got the science behind it right.

Is the general idea to eat your target carbs but to go over the fat and protein so that you train your body to work off of the fat rather than the carbs, so that in the end, it uses all of your stored fat as well?

Just wanted to be sure. If this is wrong, please fill me in with the right science. Hopefully I'm right though! :ohwell:

Replies

  • MikeFlyMike
    MikeFlyMike Posts: 639 Member
    Not sure I would have put it that way.
    Eating fewer (especially processed) carbs, keeps your insulin from spiking. Spiked insulin will manage the sugar hit, but also will store protein or fat or cabs as body fat.
    The eating more fat, is about giving your body satiety which you easily get from eating fat. Also allowing your hormones, good cholesterol and vitamins(minerals) to properly absorb into your system making them available to your body.
    Eat more protein (more than many people) is about giving your body a good fuel and muscle building capability.

    If your insulin stays low and your glucose (carb) stores are low, then your body will naturally swtich to burning body fat for fuel rather than simply the carbs you eat (or the fat or the protein). Trying to run a body off these short term "stores" are what cause blood sugar crashes and the reason many people say they have to eat every 3 hours.

    A well trained human body knows how to run on its fat stores and can easily skip a meal or 3 without freaking out or going into "starvation" mode that so many people are afraid of. It isn't about limiting the calories - its about giving good fuel but not bonking if you don't have a cookie in you every three hours.
  • SnicciFit
    SnicciFit Posts: 967 Member
    ^^^ great explanation!
  • ShannonKirton
    ShannonKirton Posts: 304 Member
    So MikeFlyMike, another question then. Your explanation was great btw :)

    Right now my macros are are 20% carbs, 40% fat and 40% protein. Once I stay below or at the max 20% of carbs, will the fat I'm eating get used as opposed to being stored, as well as my stored fat? I just feel that some days it's unnatural to eat so much fat (albeit it's natural fat) because I guess we spend most of our lives trying to avoid fat. I just want to make sure I'm still going to lose and not gain. Losing is still my goal at this point.
  • One of the things to understand is what insulin does. Most people think of insulin as the hormone in your body that enables your body to regulate blood sugar. That is sort of true, but there is another, very important, way to understand insulin. When you put carbs (ie sugars) in your body, your body produces insulin. The reason it does this is to STORE the fat you are putting in your body. Insulin enables fat storage.

    So, what happens is that your body is flooded with carbs, so it produces lots of insulin (ie an insulin spike) in order to store as much fat as possible and use the carbs for energy. Until very recently in human history, roughly 1850, the typical human had access to very little dietary sugar, especially fructose, on a daily basis. So our bodies evolved to use whatever energy source that was available, whether it was fat or carbs. Since fat can be stored, but sugar can't, our body also evolved to prefer storing fat for times when it would not have access to energy sources. In other words, when you aren't able to eat every 3 hours.

    So, what happens if you eat carbs, get an insulin spike and store all the fat? In a couple hours your body has burned up the glucose, the drop in blood sugar signals your brain that it's hungry and your brain (plus some other hormones like ghreelin) make your stomach growl. If you were to wait and not eat, your body would begin extracting fat to provide energy. However, carbs are readily accessible and you are hungry, so you eat a sandwich. And voila, more sugar, more insulin, more storing of fat. This vicious cycle goes on and on when you are eating 50-60 percent carbs in your diet as USDA recommends.

    Your body won't be able to use fat for energy as long as your insulin is high, because insulin tells your body to store fat and burn glucose.

    This is the reason why the USDA says avoid fat. The problem is, of course, that fat is what creates satiety in food. Meaning that food tastes good because of the fat in it. If you cut fat out of food, it tastes horrible. Unless you add sugar. Notice that "light" salad dressings are low in fat, but high in sugar. So, what happens when you eliminate fat, but add sugar? Insulin spikes. High blood sugar. Fatty liver. Strain on your heart. Increasing BP. etc.
  • ShannonKirton
    ShannonKirton Posts: 304 Member
    Eric, thanks for the science lesson. It truly was enlightening. I guess that's why Paleo makes so much sense because the less carbs we eat, the less fat we store and the more fat we use as energy. (I hope I got that right!!)

    Still pretty difficult to get it so low at times though, seeing as everything including the fruits and veggies all have carbs. Right now I'm at 20% carbs but can get down to 15% or so most days. Not sure how the 5% people get it done. It's hard work!!
  • sunlover89
    sunlover89 Posts: 436 Member
    But does the amount of carbs you eat also depend on the amount of insulin released and fat stored? E.g. You eat a healthy fatty omelette for breakfast, high in fat and protein, basically no carb. Then you have a 100 calorie chocolate bar 10 minutes later. Your insulin would spike from the sugar. Will your body then use the fat from the omelette to store as fat? What is the effect on fat storage and energy use of food if something sweet is eaten with a high fat/protein meal vs just the high fat/protein meal on it's own.
  • I don't know the full details on timing, etc, but basically if you ate a candybar ten minutes after eating a "good" low carb, high fat meal, then you would have an insulin spike. The insulin triggers your body to take fat that it is digesting and store it in your fat cells. So, yes, eating that candybar would set up the same routine and essentially disrupt your state of ketosis.

    Shannon, are you taking in to account the fiber in your food? Fiber is a non-digestible carbohydrate. You basically get to subtract every gram of fiber from your carb total to get a net carb outcome. For example, 1 oz of avocado has 3g of carbs, but 2g of that are fiber, so that 1 oz of avocado is really only 1g net carbs. If you are eating small amounts of fruits and significant amounts of green and leafy vegetables, you should find it difficult to get more than 20% of your calories from carbs. Assuming, of course, that you are not eating corn, wheat, etc.
  • MikeFlyMike
    MikeFlyMike Posts: 639 Member
    will the fat I'm eating get used as opposed to being stored, as well as my stored fat?

    Fat can be stored as fat. Carbs (glucose) can be stored as fat. Protein can be stored as fat (a bit harder chemical process though).
    Be careful to not think of dietary fat as adipose tissue (what people call body fat).
    If you eat less carbs, but also eat less fat - you will go insane ;)
    You will not absorb nutrition.

    We americans are the most overfed - but are terribly undernourished because we eat crap devoid of most nutritional content - but also damage the pathways for absorption of what nutrients we do get. example: Taking a multivitamin when your body isn't set up for success is pissing away your money btw ;)

    Now that we have you not afraid of fat - start thinking about good fat. olive oil, avocados, grass fed butter and lard etc. Then eat some cholesterol too ;)
  • This ^^^^^^^
  • Agreed, all macro nutrients CAN be stored as fat. However, the body doesn't really like to store protein and carbs that way. It takes an awful lot of either (and some difficult processes) to do so.

    More importantly, your body cannot put fat in your fat cells without insulin. Insulin is the little guy pulling the levers in your body. Insulin tells your fat cells to store fat. Lower the amount of insulin your body is releasing and you lower the amount of fat you store. Take away carbs and your body will have to convert fat in to ketones to provide energy to your muscles and brain. From a science perspective, fat converts to energy much less efficiently than carbs do. It's not like 1g of fat gives you the same energy as 1g of carbs.

    That means, from a weight loss perspective, that lowering your carb intake and replacing it with fat intake is going to be good for losing weight. Your body will need to consume body fat to make up the difference in energy levels.

    Also, focus on so-called good fats, as noted. Your body processes them much easier. Avoid, obviously, trans-fats. Good fats = EVOO, Coconut oil, grass fed butter and cream, avocados, many sorts of nuts (pistachios - #nom), the fat in grass fed beef, the fat in salmon (and many other fish). I have a cup of coffee with 2 tbsp of coconut oil, 2 tbsp of butter, 1 tbsp of unsweetened cocoa for breakfast .... 97% fat .... I have lost weight, BP has gone down to healthy levels, cholesterol is now in the healthy range. My doctor hates my diet, but can't argue with my health. :-D
  • ShannonKirton
    ShannonKirton Posts: 304 Member
    I need to just get over this eat the good fat thing. I know it's good for me, but somewhere in the back of my brain behind all the paleo information, I'm screaming. Anyone has some duct tape?
  • Barbellgirl
    Barbellgirl Posts: 544 Member
    Shannon, it definitely requires a change of mindset. Fat has been vilified for so long with no distinction between the different types. Reminds me of the China study and red meat. :)
  • BekaMiller
    BekaMiller Posts: 5 Member
    This is amazing information! I have been eating paleo/primal for 3 months now, and love it! My fat is melting away and I feel amazing! I will be passing on all of this information! Thanks everyone!! :)
  • ShannonKirton
    ShannonKirton Posts: 304 Member
    Thanks Lenora :)

    I'm 3 weeks in so it's still pretty new, but so far I'm loving it and they way I feel! I'm sure I'll get over the fat thing soon enough. Just hope I don't over do it.
  • Barbellgirl
    Barbellgirl Posts: 544 Member
    Shannon, I was pretty worried at first as well. So much so that I made an appointment with my doctor to do some blood work six weeks after changing to the Paleo diet and eating much more healthy fat than was typical for me. I got my results and everything looked great. When I plugged my cholesterol numbers into one of those calculators that look at the ratios between the numbers and not just in isolation, I had 'ideal' or 'nearly ideal' results in every category. I would suggest you do the same in a few months, just to put your mind at ease. :)
  • It took me a lot of reading and research before I was convinced. And several years of trying doctor and USDA recommended diets and exercise plans that always failed. I got fatter, my health indicators (BP, resting heart rate, cholesterol, blood sugar) got worse and worse too. I reached the point where I intellectually believed the research but couldn't get myself to do it because it went against everything I'd been taught basically my whole life.

    Finally, I decided I would just try it for 6 months. Started with Gary Taubes recommendations, moved to Mark Sisson after that. I just gritted my teeth and did every day. And within a few months I had lost a bunch of weight, was able to run 2 miles in a reasonable time and felt great. But it wasn't until I had my annual exam that I really believed it deep down. When my cholesterol had gone from 280 to under 200, my BP from 140/90 to 110/70, my resting heart rate from 80 to 58, my fasting blood sugar from 135 to 97 and I had gone from 218 to 193 in weight.

    My doctor truly hates my diet. She argues against it every time I see her. But she then turns around and says that I'm one of her very few metabolic syndrome patients who has actually gone from unhealthy to healthy, so keep up whatever I'm doing.
  • ShannonKirton
    ShannonKirton Posts: 304 Member
    Lenora I will certainly take that into consideration :) Thank you!

    Eric, I'm not sure exactly why your doc hates your diet if it's done such wonderful things for you. You've done really well!! Congrats :)
  • Because my doctor follows the USDA recommendations. She believes that this is happening because of my exercise, not my diet.
  • ShannonKirton
    ShannonKirton Posts: 304 Member
    Ok, I see. Well, on the upside at least she's happy with your progress. So go for it I say :D
  • Barbellgirl
    Barbellgirl Posts: 544 Member
    My doctor just told me to keep doing what I'm doing and how glad he is to see his 'healthy' patients once in a while. :)
  • sunlover89
    sunlover89 Posts: 436 Member
    Does this mean that if I eat fat with fruit, the fat will be much more likely to be stored as adipose tissue than used as fuel? Is the best think I can do to avoid scoring energy as fat is to not eat sweet or sugary foods with fatty foods? I've been eating sweet potatoes with fatty fish like sardines, then I'll have an egg and an apple. Is this a bad combination?
    will the fat I'm eating get used as opposed to being stored, as well as my stored fat?

    Fat can be stored as fat. Carbs (glucose) can be stored as fat. Protein can be stored as fat (a bit harder chemical process though).
    Be careful to not think of dietary fat as adipose tissue (what people call body fat).
    If you eat less carbs, but also eat less fat - you will go insane ;)
    You will not absorb nutrition.

    We americans are the most overfed - but are terribly undernourished because we eat crap devoid of most nutritional content - but also damage the pathways for absorption of what nutrients we do get. example: Taking a multivitamin when your body isn't set up for success is pissing away your money btw ;)

    Now that we have you not afraid of fat - start thinking about good fat. olive oil, avocados, grass fed butter and lard etc. Then eat some cholesterol too ;)
  • scubar17
    scubar17 Posts: 43
    I also highly recommend reading Gary Taubes book "Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About it." I just finished it (in two days) and it explains in great detail the role that insulin plays in fat storage. It's very informative, eye-opening, and it will piss you off because of all the misinformation we've been fed over the years about fat. A very powerful book.
  • Does this mean that if I eat fat with fruit, the fat will be much more likely to be stored as adipose tissue than used as fuel? Is the best think I can do to avoid scoring energy as fat is to not eat sweet or sugary foods with fatty foods? I've been eating sweet potatoes with fatty fish like sardines, then I'll have an egg and an apple. Is this a bad combination?

    Heh, I am having a hard time answering just cause I don't like sweet potatoes or sardines. ;-)

    I think the answer is that if you are moderate with such foods, and sticking to the right quantities and types of foods, you are not going to see the dietary fat be stored in your fat cells. There's a dramatically different impact on your body from 1 cup of strawberries and 1 cup of pasta. For example:

    1 cup spaghetti - 220 cals, 42.8g carbs, 2.5g fiber

    1 cup strawberry halves - 49 cals, 11.7g carbs, 3g fiber

    We are really talking about the insulin spikes caused by processed foods made from wheat and corn and other starchy foods. Like pasta, bread, anything with HFCS in it, regular potatoes, rice, etc.
  • sunlover89
    sunlover89 Posts: 436 Member
    Does this mean that if I eat fat with fruit, the fat will be much more likely to be stored as adipose tissue than used as fuel? Is the best think I can do to avoid scoring energy as fat is to not eat sweet or sugary foods with fatty foods? I've been eating sweet potatoes with fatty fish like sardines, then I'll have an egg and an apple. Is this a bad combination?

    Heh, I am having a hard time answering just cause I don't like sweet potatoes or sardines. ;-)

    I think the answer is that if you are moderate with such foods, and sticking to the right quantities and types of foods, you are not going to see the dietary fat be stored in your fat cells. There's a dramatically different impact on your body from 1 cup of strawberries and 1 cup of pasta. For example:

    1 cup spaghetti - 220 cals, 42.8g carbs, 2.5g fiber

    1 cup strawberry halves - 49 cals, 11.7g carbs, 3g fiber

    We are really talking about the insulin spikes caused by processed foods made from wheat and corn and other starchy foods. Like pasta, bread, anything with HFCS in it, regular potatoes, rice, etc.

    Thanks, I really appreciate your answer.
    I have a feeling I am very sensitive to certain whole foods, even in smallish amounts. One of my CrossFit trainers recently told me I should be eating more carbs and less fat to furl my body for intense workouts - I was eating equal amounts of fat and protein, approx 100g and 60g carbs. I stopped cooking with evoo and ghee, cut nuts and ate more berries and carrots. The result was exhaustion, napping, weakness and general lethergy. So I think I sugar crash even with "low GI" whole foods and subsequently my body becomes a fat storing machine, from eating a couple servings of carrots and berries! I don't think there is a one size fits all approach with macros or types of carbs. I'm still trying to find a food routine that works.