Read Starve Mode - want to dive in but can't convince myself

pabboo · November 2013

I am trying to start a refeed. But my heart is not in it, as I cannot convince my head that this makes sense.

I was on a low calorie diet 1200-1400 for a year or so (with intermittent fasting once or twice a week, so these are average calories over a week, not necessarily daily) and I started weight training in December last year.
I lost 14 lbs, mainly in the first 6 months, and gained lots of muscle - and lost at least 5% body fat - and felt good - and prepared to lose that last 10lbs. Which never went. Calories went lower and lower, my brain got more and more fried and I felt rubbish.

I bought the book, and have read through it and am planning on a refeed up to TDEE. I am 5'8" and weigh around 69.5kg (but have not weighed for a few weeks, staying away from the scales now). I am sedentary at work, but move when I can and train about 3 times a week with heavy weights. My BMR is 1400 and my TDEE is 1950-2200 depending on whether it is a workout day (or a day with my 4 yr old son, as opposed to my desk!) (based on fitbit, and Scooby and other calculators, so am happy with the estimate)

Now, I started two weeks ago (before I read the book) trying to at maintain 1400. I have gained 0.75" on my waist, which is devastating as it took me 6 months to lose that - and I read about how refeeding will effect the scales, but the tape measure is barely mentioned, so this is not water, glycogen, weight of food etc, is it? So why? Why? Why? ;-)

Anyway, I was at 1600 this week and planned today to go up to 1750. Then 1950.... then I think my struggle to eat over my TDEE is REALLY going to kick in. I am weight training still - 3 times a week for 30mins-1hr at a time. I am hoping to gain muscle in the refeed, and hope that takes my mind of the increase in waist!

Here are my questions
1. I still want to fast (for health, not weight loss) and note the Leigh says it is ok to fast once a week when refeeding - do I eat up on the other days to compensate for the lack of food that day (I will be about 1000 cal less than usual on a fast day).

2. I need convincing. I understand the message about metabolism and everything, including yourself slowing down as you eat less... but ...oh I don't know...the but is just still there. I think that I am just afraid of undoing all my hard work....

3. why eat over TDEE at the end of the refeed? Surely you then just eat more than you burn and gain fat?

4. When will my waist measurement stop going up!!! I cannot grow out of my clothes, I only just replaced them all!!

5. When I do then cut again - I do still want to lose that last 10lb / 1" (by which point it may be 2" or more!) How do I do it without going back into the same metabolic rubbishness I got into before?

I think that is it for now, but I would appreciate your thoughts on my circumstances and questions!

Thanks.

pabboo · November 2013

Sorry, should add, I have an underactive thyroid, but am tested every 6 months and this seems to be ok at the moment.

norcal_yogi · November 2013

gonna bump this for you! like to see responses....

heybales · November 2013

Good job doing strength training. That can help retain muscle mass in the face of a deficit. And as newbie, even gain some (not lots though, you'd be lucky at surplus and newbie to gain 12 lbs in a year). But you are past that time now.

But it doesn't mean you can't slow your metabolism down by upwards of 20%, so that may have been done.

Plus, you are likely been living with glucose stores depleted to some level, that means less water, and that combined in the muscle is dealt with all through the day and increases metabolism, or in your case, lowers it even more.

Why wouldn't an increase of glucose store increase your waist? Got lower back muscles from lifting? More stored water takes up space, it's going somewhere. That's why best energy store is fat, very little space/weight for the calories, glucose with water much bigger space.

Also, you may be getting ready for a whoosh effect, which several experts feel is water strangely retained in the fat cells until a carb refeed (or alcohol) releases them, bam, 3-4 lbs gone. Water can be heavy.

Lifting during refeed is the best thing you can do with the extra calories, if indeed metabolism is suppressed and slowly increasing.

1 - you should eat more on the other days to compensate. Your body wants so much energy to not be stressed and adapt in a way you don't want it to.
That's why the 5/2 fasting method is 5 days at TDEE, 2 days at 25% of TDEE.

2 - What's the hard work exactly that you might undue? Suppressed metabolism, body that is stressed enough to not let go of fat, body that won't increase metabolism when you eat more and just stores it as fat, ect? Or you are talking the more visual things, like number on the scale no one can see?

3 - Are you sure you read the eating over TDEE correctly?
For one thing, get straight this is estimated BMR and estimated TDEE.
You can indeed confirm the estimated TDEE was correct by eating 250 calories over what you think it is, for 2 weeks.
Guess what an extra 250 calories over TDEE for 2 weeks ends up being - 1 lb of fat, unless you are exercising and the body uses it for building muscle.

If you quickly gain more than 1 lb - then it wasn't really TDEE, you just added more glucose with water.
If you slowly gain that mere 1 lb - then prior level was indeed TDEE for whatever the level of exercise was during that time. Confirmed as best you can with only 2 week test.

4 - When you stop causing elevated cortisol by being stressed about it. Not whole story, see above.

5 - 10% deficit with so little to lose. That minor deficit combined with lifting will allow more body improvements than you could have gotten eating less with bigger deficit.

To your estimated of BMR and TDEE.

Do you estimate of BF% (sounds like it)?
If so, did you get your Scooby Katch BMR used on their Most Accurate Calculator link (if not do so)?
How does your Katch BMR compare to the Mifflin BMR that MFP uses (and FitBit uses similar BMR too)?
Does that FitBit TDEE include your lifting workouts as it sees it (badly underestimated) or as you enter it in to MFP as strength training and it syncs across?
Was the 1200-1400 gross, or you correctly followed MFP and ate back exercise calories, if so how much eaten gross really?

AnitraSoto · November 2013

If you have been eating low cal for quite some time, and then finally stalled out and plateaued as you say you have, then, chances are, your metabolism has adapted by slowing down to match your intake. Now your job is to work to speed your metabolism back up where it should be by doing a metabolism reset, or eating at TDEE until your body accepts this as normal again.

Now, as you gradually increase your calories to TDEE, yes you will see some fluctuations on the scale as your body adjusts. Glycogen stores will increase, and you will just have more food in your system. Many feel bloated, overly full and question the process during this phase. Some of these side effects can be avoided by increasing to TDEE more slowly (others choose to bump right up to that figure and just get the process started...)

The weight training is awesome, and no better time than during this metabolism reset to put those calories to good use!

If you are confident in your calculations, then just work your way up to TDEE (however quickly or slowly you feel comfortable with) and then just stay there for 8 - 12 weeks and let your body acclimate. If you eat *over* TDEE, then yes, that weight gain will be "real".

Although you may feel like you are "undoing" all of your previous success, the reset process is actually working to repair the damage done through low calorie dieting. Consider it an investment in *you*. Check your numbers, and adjust as necessary, but just bump up to (not over) TDEE and stay there until your body learns to trust you again...

pabboo · November 2013

To your estimated of BMR and TDEE.

Do you estimate of BF% (sounds like it)?
If so, did you get your Scooby Katch BMR used on their Most Accurate Calculator link (if not do so)?
How does your Katch BMR compare to the Mifflin BMR that MFP uses (and FitBit uses similar BMR too)?
Does that FitBit TDEE include your lifting workouts as it sees it (badly underestimated) or as you enter it in to MFP as strength training and it syncs across?
Was the 1200-1400 gross, or you correctly followed MFP and ate back exercise calories, if so how much eaten gross really?

Thank you for replies and thoughts.
To answer your questions,

Body fat is est at 25% based on callipers
Bmr and tdee is around 1954 on fitbit, and on sccooby ( mifflin ) but 2400 on katch - but that is closer to fitbit on a workout day.

I never ever ate back exercise calories, ever. The forum and plan i was following frowned on doing that based on the theoryt hat we never really know how much we burn and it is probably less than we think it is.... So they take your tdee, reduce by 3500 cals a week, then knock another 15% off that to allow for errors of judgement in calorie estimation.
So i just never recorded any exercise on mfp. And til you just asked, never really thought twice about it....

Anitra (and Heybales) - i guess i am as confident as i can be in calculations.... I have just been convinced for a year that these are "magic" numbers and we are all different and not average and so maybe the tdee calculations do not apply to me.... My tdee is somehow much less than estimated, that to lose you need to eat less, and if you are not losing you are eating too much .. So cut, and cut again.

So this is a real about turn for me and a scary one - especially as i have vowed to stay away from the scales during this process and rely only on looks and tape measure - so i am unsure if the eating 250 cals above tdee to establish if that is the right figure for me would work.... And the very thought of trying that makes me feel ill!

I am loving the weight training so much and am using Leigh Peele's training days in her book while i do the reset, along with a pt session once a week. Yesterday was a legs day and i am focussing on 8 reps and trying to basically lift to failure by the last set of reps or thereabouts, so i know i have really lifted as heavy as i possibly can (leaving my ego at the door...). I find i can cope with this process if i focus on the muscle gain i can get from the extra calories....

Thank you again for your thoughts, i ended up eating 1800 yesterday and will try and stick to 1750 for a few days now until i feel ready to go up again.

One more question..Do i aim to go up to 1950 or the higher calculation? Or do i just eat up to over 2000 depending on my exercise that day?

AnitraSoto · November 2013

I know for me, that whole reset process was definitely more of a mental challenge than a physical one.... I had been on and off of low cal diets for my entire life and know that I had damaged my metabolism as a result. Even eating 1,000 calories a day and doing tons of cardio could not break through that plateau and get to my goal weight or size.

Once I committed to EM2WL, I just took it slow and steady and worked my way through the process. I ran my numbers and determined my average TDEE to be around 2,100. I took my time and gradually increased my intake 100 calories at a time every week or two. I never increased to the next level until my weight was completely stable at the current level (allowing for those normal monthly fluctuations...) As I recall, I actually spent several months around 1,900 calories and it took my body a long time to adjust to that new level. I kept second guessing the numbers and wondering if this was my true TDEE rather than the 2,100 calories I was getting on Scooby. After what seemed like forever, I finally took the plunge and just went up to 2,100 to see what happened and again, weight went up, then returned to where it had been previously.

Through trial and error, I have found that I can now eat and maintain eating between 2,100 and 2,200 calories. It took a long time to get where I am. It took about a year to get from where I was maintaining on 1,000 to where I am maintaining on 2,200.

You are right - we are all different, and it is truly a trial and error process and persistence is key. Personally, I would just work on getting up to what is supposed to be your TDEE and stay there until things stabilize. I would not go to that 250 over TDEE level unless that potential scale gain truly will not bother you. I would just concentrate on trying to determine your true TDEE and if it has been suppressed by VLCDing work on getting it back up to where it should be.

pabboo · November 2013

Once I committed to EM2WL, I just took it slow and steady and worked my way through the process. I ran my numbers and determined my average TDEE to be around 2,100. I took my time and gradually increased my intake 100 calories at a time every week or two. I never increased to the next level until my weight was completely stable at the current level (allowing for those normal monthly fluctuations...) As I recall, I actually spent several months around 1,900 calories and it took my body a long time to adjust to that new level. I kept second guessing the numbers and wondering if this was my true TDEE rather than the 2,100 calories I was getting on Scooby. After what seemed like forever, I finally took the plunge and just went up to 2,100 to see what happened and again, weight went up, then returned to where it had been previously.

Love this plan... Seems i am doing that without thinking about it - my waist was down by 0.25" this morning, so i felt a lot better about then increasing to 1750 as it feels like my body is settled and happy having had the increase in calories and it feels ok to venture up a bit more.
Now, if only i could stop turning to the chocolate to top up those calories!! Otherwise we are going to very quickly reach 2250!!

heybales · November 2013

Body fat is est at 25% based on callipers
Bmr and tdee is around 1954 on fitbit, and on sccooby ( mifflin ) but 2400 on katch - but that is closer to fitbit on a workout day.

Anitra (and Heybales) - i guess i am as confident as i can be in calculations.... I have just been convinced for a year that these are "magic" numbers and we are all different and not average and so maybe the tdee calculations do not apply to me.... My tdee is somehow much less than estimated, that to lose you need to eat less, and if you are not losing you are eating too much .. So cut, and cut again.

One more question..Do i aim to go up to 1950 or the higher calculation? Or do i just eat up to over 2000 depending on my exercise that day?

So you are comparing apples and oranges a tad, but still something noticeable here. Let me explain why you shouldn't have that much confidence in those calculations.

Now, take in mind that caliper BF reading in the hands of a skilled person can be 5% accurate using the 7-site method. So you decide if that is the case here, if your hands were used for a 3 site method, I'd get some measurement estimates too and average them all together. But let's pretend your BF% is right on.

So your estimated TDEE (not BMR) is about 1950 on FitBit and Scooby based on a BMR using age, weight, height with whatever activity level you selected.
But estimated TDEE based on a more accurate Katch BMR at same activity level is 2400.

So you have more LBM than expected for someone your age, weight, height. Congrats.
Guess which estimated TDEE has a better chance of being accurate though?
FitBit bases all moving time on step based calculations, is is pretty good estimate - when step based. Is lifting step based?
So first, unless you logged in strength training to MFP and synced it across, or manually entered it on FitBit site - it's underestimated.
Second, FitBit is basing all non-moving time on your BMR, and it is using age, weight, height BMR. But what was more accurate? So if you have sit-down job and sleep/sit around 8 hrs a night, 2/3 of your day is underestimated calorie burn.

So your method of finding which Scooby level matched FitBit reading was good idea, but the FitBit reading is underestimated.
What you should do is find a standard normal week, and manually log your lifting workouts on MFP and let the better calorie burn sync across to FitBit. Now go review those past weeks and get a week's worth of daily average TDEE.
Now see what TDEE level that is on Scooby using Mifflin.
Now use Katch and the same activity level.

That is your best estimated potential TDEE, based on FitBit, adjusted for fact your better BMR is higher.

Now, that is what you should work up to gradually.

Now here's the kicker, because you are partly right, estimated BMR and TDEE is estimated, FitBit if using best estimate could have been better.
You getting RMR test right now might only prove how suppressed you are, not what you could recover to as Anitra describes.

But, new studies have shown you can suppress up to 20% beyond what is expected, and in the studies that lasted to the end of the 9-12 months, unknown how long it really last because the study ended.

So this reset can help recover what can be recovered. Your LBM can increase (even if not muscle mass), your daily activity can increase (it gets suppressed when under-eating), you're burn more digesting your food (less eaten less burned to process), your body.

But you gotta start on the high side to confirm things, and lower as needed for monthly results.
Meaning you gotta weigh frankly in my opinion. How else can you tell the difference on each calorie increase between fast water weight gain, and slow and steady fat gain. Well, your are lifting, so it won't be fat, but still, you get the point.

Mentally accept the fact you are preparing your body for maintenance, and future success so you don't start yo-yo dieting your life away. Immediate results don't spell out that future. That fact really stands out to those that lost it fast and the wrong weight and have immediate success and happiness, until next year when they gain some, all, or more weight back. Or they have to eat at such a restricted level that any happiness with food is ripped away.

If you want some additional bodyfat measurements to increase that accuracy and better the Katch BMR, and a way to track the progress, and potentially adjust your FitBit, or at least use a better activity calc, check out the spreadsheet on my profile page.

AnitraSoto · November 2013

Yea, I found myself getting overly stressed about the numbers and worrying over every calorie eaten and burned. I found I had the best results when I actually just relaxed and kept my intake consistent and waited for my body to adjust.

Remember, stress is not our friend on this journey. Relax, enjoy the eats and the new found power that comes along with it. Take advantage of the reset and lift heavy and maybe get some muscle growth in the process. You are gonna do awesome!

pabboo · November 2013

Thank you, again, for your time and replies.
Right. I will weigh then. I will just have to establish a different relationship with than number on the scales and what it means.
I will also take your advice on the fitbit, and getting an idea over a week - should have that by sunday, and will work out some numbers then. At the moment i log weight training manually into fitbit, which reckons an hour of lifting burns about 358 cals - which seems reasonable to me, perhaps even on the higher side. But you seem to be saying to sync it across the other way - mfp to fitbit? I think that mfp logs it as 208 cals for an hour. I do log it as vigorous effort, powerlifting style which is over egging the pudding somewhat - i am no powerlifter!

I am already feeling more energetic, happier, and more muscluar on my arms.

With this, and your support, all in all I am feeling really positive now! :-)
Thank you x

Springfield1970 · November 2013

I think I have just found my favourite MFP thread! Thank you everyone for being generous with your time, knowledge, fears and successes. I wish one day I could help people out like you've helped me in this short time.

heybales · November 2013

Thank you, again, for your time and replies.
Right. I will weigh then. I will just have to establish a different relationship with than number on the scales and what it means.
I will also take your advice on the fitbit, and getting an idea over a week - should have that by sunday, and will work out some numbers then. At the moment i log weight training manually into fitbit, which reckons an hour of lifting burns about 358 cals - which seems reasonable to me, perhaps even on the higher side. But you seem to be saying to sync it across the other way - mfp to fitbit? I think that mfp logs it as 208 cals for an hour. I do log it as vigorous effort, powerlifting style which is over egging the pudding somewhat - i am no powerlifter!

I am already feeling more energetic, happier, and more muscluar on my arms.

With this, and your support, all in all I am feeling really positive now! :-)
Thank you x

208 sounds more realistic.
Vigorous means not easy maintenance mode lifting. You've seen the women with 5 lb dumbbells, that's easy and maintenance level.
Doesn't mean you have to be doing power lifting - which actually can have a lot of rest time in it to obtain those heavy weights, per time not actually burning as much.

pabboo · November 2013

Oh help, lovely people. Can you calm me down??

I have gradually increased my calories to 1850...here is my "vague" diary so far (vague as the weeks may be a little out, but the pattern is right):

Start -weight 68kg, waist 27" food intake 1200 per day
Week 2 - increased food to 1400. weight 69kg, waist 27.75"
Week 3- increased to 1650.
Week 4 - weight now around 70.2kg, waist down to 27.5 food increased to 1750
week 5 - weight 70.8kg, waist 27.5 - increased to 1850
mid week 6 (now) weight 71.8. Waist 28" (have been at 1850 for 10 days)

I am in a complete panic. What if I am under counting the calories and am actually eating too much? With the weight increase have I gained loads of fat? I am lifting 3-4 times a week, so was hoping that, while the scales may go up the waist would not have done. But an inch on my waist...that inch is so scary to me. I really do not want it to go above 28" - my clothes won't fit for a start!! - but my final aim is around 26-27" waist and so it going up is making me fearful about how I will ever get it down again!

As well as weights I am walking more - 7000-10000 steps a day when I can. My fitbit still says I am burning between 1920 (if I have a lazy day and don't manage 5000 steps) to 2200 or even 2407 on a weight training day (dependant on the extra steps I do in warming up).

I cannot imagine increasing my calories beyond 1850, but I am worried that if I do not eventually suck it up and do it, the metabolism reset won't work. I guess I just stay here at 1850 for a while and see if the weight and waist go down or stop going up or something....but I am not sure how to psychologically cope with this.

Can someone give me some reassurance? I am finding this bit very scary.
Thanks

Aries03 · November 2013

Bump

pabboo · November 2013

Bump

Thanks for the bump!!

AnitraSoto · November 2013

Oh help, lovely people. Can you calm me down??

I have gradually increased my calories to 1850...here is my "vague" diary so far (vague as the weeks may be a little out, but the pattern is right):

Start -weight 68kg, waist 27" food intake 1200 per day
Week 2 - increased food to 1400. weight 69kg, waist 27.75"
Week 3- increased to 1650.
Week 4 - weight now around 70.2kg, waist down to 27.5 food increased to 1750
week 5 - weight 70.8kg, waist 27.5 - increased to 1850
mid week 6 (now) weight 71.8. Waist 28" (have been at 1850 for 10 days)

I am in a complete panic. What if I am under counting the calories and am actually eating too much? With the weight increase have I gained loads of fat? I am lifting 3-4 times a week, so was hoping that, while the scales may go up the waist would not have done. But an inch on my waist...that inch is so scary to me. I really do not want it to go above 28" - my clothes won't fit for a start!! - but my final aim is around 26-27" waist and so it going up is making me fearful about how I will ever get it down again!

As well as weights I am walking more - 7000-10000 steps a day when I can. My fitbit still says I am burning between 1920 (if I have a lazy day and don't manage 5000 steps) to 2200 or even 2407 on a weight training day (dependant on the extra steps I do in warming up).

I cannot imagine increasing my calories beyond 1850, but I am worried that if I do not eventually suck it up and do it, the metabolism reset won't work. I guess I just stay here at 1850 for a while and see if the weight and waist go down or stop going up or something....but I am not sure how to psychologically cope with this.

Can someone give me some reassurance? I am finding this bit very scary.
Thanks

Hang in there - this is the scary part! This is the part where so many quit and say "see, it didn't work for me!" Remember, it took years to damage your metabolism and it will not heal over night.

Personally, I would just stay where you are until things stabilize. It doesn't look like you are near your TDEE yet, so just give your body time to acclimate. You did bump your calories up fairly quickly, so these fluctuations are totally to be expected. I would just stay at this level until you feel comfortable and then try to bump it up again, but maybe just try 100 calorie increments each week - may help to reduce those "panic-y" feelings!

Keep up with your lifting, and keep your NEAT up there, but try to avoid that feeling that you need to burn more calories because you are eating more and feeling "fluffy". By increasing the cardio, you will be increasing your TDEE and in effect eating less. You will also be adding additional stress.

Hang in there - this is the hard part --- don't quit right before the finish line!

arrseegee · November 2013

Fantastic thread, thank you. I am dealing with some of these issues myself at the moment!

pabboo · December 2013

Still feeling fluffy!! Hating the clear gain on my waist. But I am so happy with my extra strength so am focussing on that for now. It is hard, but I think soon I will think about upping a little more.
I am worried that I should be adding 15% to my daily calorie estimate - that is what I used to do - you basically assume you are underestimating your intake by 15%...so I think I am eating 1850 but actually it is 2127... But that kind of thinking got where I am now!! So I am trying to relax and stick with the programme and will consider cutting back sometime next year once I have maintained for a while.
Out of interest, what is the rule for cutting down when you get to that stage? How do you lose weight once you have reset?

heybales · December 2013

Still feeling fluffy!! Hating the clear gain on my waist. But I am so happy with my extra strength so am focussing on that for now. It is hard, but I think soon I will think about upping a little more.
I am worried that I should be adding 15% to my daily calorie estimate - that is what I used to do - you basically assume you are underestimating your intake by 15%...so I think I am eating 1850 but actually it is 2127... But that kind of thinking got where I am now!! So I am trying to relax and stick with the programme and will consider cutting back sometime next year once I have maintained for a while.
Out of interest, what is the rule for cutting down when you get to that stage? How do you lose weight once you have reset?

Remember that when you measure your waist, you are measuring your back too.
You got muscles down there?

Also, does your workout include a lot of stomach exercises?
If you make situps or similar endurance level, your body improves by storing more glucose there for your extended workouts, that stores with water, bigger muscle too.

You lose weight after you have reset the same way you lose weight at any time.
You eat less than what you burn in total for the day, on average.
The suggestion is to lessen the impact on metabolism by making it a reasonable deficit, this group recommends 15%, unless obese and lots to lose, or close to goal weight in which case 10%.

trishadams · December 2013

This is a great thread, especially for anyone just starting out :flowerforyou:

Eat More 2 Weigh Less

Read Starve Mode - want to dive in but can't convince myself

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