dropping assistance lifts
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jacksonpt
Posts: 10,413 Member
Anyone see any issues with dropping traditional assistance lifts completely? I consider myself an intermediate lifter (for whatever that's worth) and I'm tweaking my routine a bit to regain some focus.
I've been doing 5.3.1 for the last 2 winters (I don't lift much during the summer race season) and will continue to use it as the basis of my routine. I like Wender's philosophy with the Triumvirate, and the idea of focusing on key lifts, getting them done and going on with your day has worked well for me in the past. Add in the fact that I'm getting older and need to do a lot more warming up/preventative work than I used to, and something short and sweet is about all I have time for most days.
My plan is the following:
Workout A
- squats, 5.3.1
- deads, 3-5 sets of 10-15 reps
- bb lunges 3-5 sets of 10-15 reps
Workout B
- bench, 5.3.1
- ohp, 3-5 sets of 10-15 reps
- rows, 3-5 sets of 10-15 reps
Workout C
- deads, 5.3.1
- squat 3-5 sets of 10-15 reps
- GHR, 3-5 sets of 10-15 reps
Workout D
- ohp, 5.3.1
- bench, 3-5 sets of 10-15 reps
- pull-ups, 3-5 sets of 10-15 reps
Anyone see any problems with that? I'll have to feel things out a bit with the 2nd and 3rd lifts as far as volume goes, does the general setup look ok?
In the past I've used accessory work to help with perceived weak points, imbalances, or simple vanity goals. But I really want to hone in my focus on getting stronger and I'll let my diet take care of the rest.
I've been doing 5.3.1 for the last 2 winters (I don't lift much during the summer race season) and will continue to use it as the basis of my routine. I like Wender's philosophy with the Triumvirate, and the idea of focusing on key lifts, getting them done and going on with your day has worked well for me in the past. Add in the fact that I'm getting older and need to do a lot more warming up/preventative work than I used to, and something short and sweet is about all I have time for most days.
My plan is the following:
Workout A
- squats, 5.3.1
- deads, 3-5 sets of 10-15 reps
- bb lunges 3-5 sets of 10-15 reps
Workout B
- bench, 5.3.1
- ohp, 3-5 sets of 10-15 reps
- rows, 3-5 sets of 10-15 reps
Workout C
- deads, 5.3.1
- squat 3-5 sets of 10-15 reps
- GHR, 3-5 sets of 10-15 reps
Workout D
- ohp, 5.3.1
- bench, 3-5 sets of 10-15 reps
- pull-ups, 3-5 sets of 10-15 reps
Anyone see any problems with that? I'll have to feel things out a bit with the 2nd and 3rd lifts as far as volume goes, does the general setup look ok?
In the past I've used accessory work to help with perceived weak points, imbalances, or simple vanity goals. But I really want to hone in my focus on getting stronger and I'll let my diet take care of the rest.
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Replies
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In to see responses, as I am doing 5/3/1 as well, but just the main lifts with accessories to correct weaknesses (mainly core) or where I find the program lacks (rows, pull-ups).0
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i'm getting ready to cut back on lifting myself for the upcoming triathlon season. and basically i'm going to be doing what you're doing. big but boring, but with the 5x10s of the opposite day.
also, i'll only be lifting twice a week. i'll not be including a deload week since i'll be lifting so little. i'll also probably not be making any strength gains, and just be looking to maintain.
as long as you are doing the main lifts, doing 1-2 assistance lifts is more than fine, i think. if wendler says so, how can it be wrong?0 -
as long as you are doing the main lifts, doing 1-2 assistance lifts is more than fine, i think. if wendler says so, how can it be wrong?
Right, I don't have an issue only doing 3 lifts each day (in fact, I really like a streamlined routine like that)... but I'm using squats as assistance work on deadlift day. The main forums have beaten into me the idea that this is bad.0 -
as long as you are doing the main lifts, doing 1-2 assistance lifts is more than fine, i think. if wendler says so, how can it be wrong?
Right, I don't have an issue only doing 3 lifts each day (in fact, I really like a streamlined routine like that)... but I'm using squats as assistance work on deadlift day. The main forums have beaten into me the idea that this is bad.
I do leg press on dead's day. I don't do OHP on bench day, but I do incline DB press, so both would be similar to what you are doing. each day I throw in a core exercise as well.0 -
as long as you are doing the main lifts, doing 1-2 assistance lifts is more than fine, i think. if wendler says so, how can it be wrong?
Right, I don't have an issue only doing 3 lifts each day (in fact, I really like a streamlined routine like that)... but I'm using squats as assistance work on deadlift day. The main forums have beaten into me the idea that this is bad.
dude... the main forums? don't go for advice there.0 -
as long as you are doing the main lifts, doing 1-2 assistance lifts is more than fine, i think. if wendler says so, how can it be wrong?
Right, I don't have an issue only doing 3 lifts each day (in fact, I really like a streamlined routine like that)... but I'm using squats as assistance work on deadlift day. The main forums have beaten into me the idea that this is bad.
dude... the main forums? don't go for advice there.
But... but... Dr. Oz... he's a real doctor, so he has to be right!0 -
Are you doing the 2, 3, or 4 day per week variation. If you are doing the 2 or 3 I see no issues squatting on both days, if you are doing 4 times, that may impede intended recovery in the program.0
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4 days per week... more often than not, it'll be Mon, Tues, Thurs, Fri schedule.0
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as long as you are doing the main lifts, doing 1-2 assistance lifts is more than fine, i think. if wendler says so, how can it be wrong?
Right, I don't have an issue only doing 3 lifts each day (in fact, I really like a streamlined routine like that)... but I'm using squats as assistance work on deadlift day. The main forums have beaten into me the idea that this is bad.
I do similar right now..on squat day I do assistance with RDLs and on dead-lift day I do assistance with Bulgarian split squats. I'm also doing this variation of Wendler's 5/3/1..
http://www.t-nation.com/training/8-6-3-for-size-and-strength
Which I have been enjoying...you might want to check it out sometime. I don't see anything wrong with your set up...but yeah, keep an eye on the volume for the 2nd and 3rd lifts. Seems like a lot of reps.0 -
as long as you are doing the main lifts, doing 1-2 assistance lifts is more than fine, i think. if wendler says so, how can it be wrong?
Right, I don't have an issue only doing 3 lifts each day (in fact, I really like a streamlined routine like that)... but I'm using squats as assistance work on deadlift day. The main forums have beaten into me the idea that this is bad.
I do similar right now..on squat day I do assistance with RDLs and on dead-lift day I do assistance with Bulgarian split squats. I'm also doing this variation of Wendler's 5/3/1..
http://www.t-nation.com/training/8-6-3-for-size-and-strength
Which I have been enjoying...you might want to check it out sometime. I don't see anything wrong with your set up...but yeah, keep an eye on the volume for the 2nd and 3rd lifts. Seems like a lot of reps.
That looks very interesting. I really like the short and sweet nature of 5.3.1, but I just want a bit more volume.0 -
This is fine what you are doing.
This is pretty much Big But Boring. Not sure why anyone is beating you up. They obviously don't know Wendler's program.
The only difference is on BBB is on your lower body day, he just has in the template Ab work...but again if you read his stuff and talk to anyone who has trained, only you know your body and what you need.
I also do the triumvirate, however, besides my 2 assistance lifts I do pull-ups in between every press set varying my grip on every set. On lower body day i do hanging leg lifts/knee ups in between every pull/squat set.
I do know Wendler does pull-ups in between every push set also and i have to say it has really added volume to my workouts and i've gone from 3 good pull-ups to now 15.
Your workout looks fine. Not sure if you need volume, you have plenty. Over-training is just as bad as under-training.
I'd say even during the summer do just the main lifts and just do the 40-50-60 warm up set and repeat it going down to keep some tone and muscle memory for your form.
For your warm-up check out DeFranco's Limber 11 (it replaced his agile 8). I'm now doing it twice a day. Once before the gym and once before my classes at my dojo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSSDLDhbacc 0 -
I can understand dialing back the workouts during race season. Assistance is what I'd cut out too.
I actually do squat/powerclean/deads/leg press on the same day. But I don't do a lot of running/cardio work the rest of the week.
I also do bench / pull ups. Then dumbbell presses / heavy rows. Then inclines / barbell rows. That has worked out well for me also. Hasn't seem to hurt my lifts much as I've been able to progress higher and higher.0 -
I've given this some more thought over the last couple of days. I think I'm going to, more or less, combine the triumvirate philosophy with the BBB programming. That will give me the extra volume I want while still allowing me to focus on 3 major lifts each session. It will also program in progression for all lifts, rather than what used to be a fairly willy nilly approach towards my accessory lifts.
I'll try it for a few cycles and see how things feel.
Workout A
- squats, 5.3.1
- deads, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
- bb lunges, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
Workout B
- bench, 5.3.1
- ohp, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
- rows, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
Workout C
- deads, 5.3.1
- squat 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
- GHR, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
Workout D
- ohp, 5.3.1
- bench, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
- pull-ups, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max0 -
I really like that program.0
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I've given this some more thought over the last couple of days. I think I'm going to, more or less, combine the triumvirate philosophy with the BBB programming. That will give me the extra volume I want while still allowing me to focus on 3 major lifts each session. It will also program in progression for all lifts, rather than what used to be a fairly willy nilly approach towards my accessory lifts.
I'll try it for a few cycles and see how things feel.
Workout A
- squats, 5.3.1
- deads, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
- bb lunges, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
Workout B
- bench, 5.3.1
- ohp, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
- rows, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
Workout C
- deads, 5.3.1
- squat 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
- GHR, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
Workout D
- ohp, 5.3.1
- bench, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
- pull-ups, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
I like it. I think I'm gonna steal it right out from under ya.
Thanks
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I've given this some more thought over the last couple of days. I think I'm going to, more or less, combine the triumvirate philosophy with the BBB programming. That will give me the extra volume I want while still allowing me to focus on 3 major lifts each session. It will also program in progression for all lifts, rather than what used to be a fairly willy nilly approach towards my accessory lifts.
I'll try it for a few cycles and see how things feel.
Workout A
- squats, 5.3.1
- deads, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
- bb lunges, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
Workout B
- bench, 5.3.1
- ohp, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
- rows, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
Workout C
- deads, 5.3.1
- squat 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
- GHR, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
Workout D
- ohp, 5.3.1
- bench, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
- pull-ups, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
I like it. I think I'm gonna steal it right out from under ya.
Thanks.
No problem. I'm only 2 workouts into it, but early impressions are that 50% isn't enough weight for the 3x10 sets. I'm not going to increase it until I at least get through 2 weeks, but early on 50% is pretty light when not doing a 5.3.1 of the same lift first.0 -
I've given this some more thought over the last couple of days. I think I'm going to, more or less, combine the triumvirate philosophy with the BBB programming. That will give me the extra volume I want while still allowing me to focus on 3 major lifts each session. It will also program in progression for all lifts, rather than what used to be a fairly willy nilly approach towards my accessory lifts.
I'll try it for a few cycles and see how things feel.
Workout A
- squats, 5.3.1
- deads, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
- bb lunges, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
Workout B
- bench, 5.3.1
- ohp, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
- rows, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
Workout C
- deads, 5.3.1
- squat 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
- GHR, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
Workout D
- ohp, 5.3.1
- bench, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
- pull-ups, 3 sets, 10 reps @ 60ish% of max
I like it. I think I'm gonna steal it right out from under ya.
Thanks.
No problem. I'm only 2 workouts into it, but early impressions are that 50% isn't enough weight for the 3x10 sets. I'm not going to increase it until I at least get through 2 weeks, but early on 50% is pretty light when not doing a 5.3.1 of the same lift first.
Just for what it's worth, when I started doing a variant of BBB I started at 50% 1rm and just added 5lbs/week every time I managed to complete those reps.
That doesn't mean you have to do the same, but I agree that 50% doesn't tend to feel challenging enough.0 -
Just for what it's worth, when I started doing a variant of BBB I started at 50% 1rm and just added 5lbs/week every time I managed to complete those reps.
That doesn't mean you have to do the same, but I agree that 50% doesn't tend to feel challenging enough.
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Tagging for future.......Thanks OP0
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Just in case any of you are playing along at home...
I'm through my first week with this. I've followed 5/3/1 programming for the main lift and BBB for the secondary lifts. I've found that working at ~65% of my 1RM for the secondary lifts is really good. We'll see if that changes as the main lifts get heavier in subsequent weeks.0 -
bumping to follow...0
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Just in case any of you are playing along at home...
I'm through my first week with this. I've followed 5/3/1 programming for the main lift and BBB for the secondary lifts. I've found that working at ~65% of my 1RM for the secondary lifts is really good. We'll see if that changes as the main lifts get heavier in subsequent weeks.
So i was re-reading 5/3/1 and Beyond 5/3/1 plus his recent articles on t-nation since i'm re-programming. I'll actually be doing a variation of BBB that was in Beyond 5/3/1 which it looks like your program is based on. He did mention when doing the assistance lifts that you would start at 50% and it would feel easy, then 2nd cycle you go to 60% and then 3rd cycle go to 70% and stay there so your body adjusts to the added volume. However, it looks like you are ahead of the game, which is awesome.
Definitely keep us updated on your results in relation to hypertrophy, strength, weight gain/loss, fat gain/loss. Also curious what your intake is right now.0 -
The more I read your program the more I like it. A lot. Maybe lifting nirvana? Except for the 3x10 DL stuff. Yuck.0
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Also curious what your intake is right now.
2000 cals - deficit of roughly 500 per day, depending on the day/workout.0 -
The more I read your program the more I like it. A lot. Maybe lifting nirvana? Except for the 3x10 DL stuff. Yuck.
Oh, and I changed things slightly to be more line with BBB - secondary lifts are 5 x 10, not 3 x 10.0 -
Another update...
I'm through my second week and I'm really digging the routine. Both of the lower body days are pretty brutal and requires an extra day or 2 of recovery. But otherwise, I really like it.
The physical and mental training is very different doing 3 sets/3 reps than compared to 5 sets/10 reps. Time under tension doing 5x10 is as hard on me mentally as it is physically.
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sounds nice man!0
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FWIW... I just PRed my bench - a lift I haven't seen any progress with in a long time.
Correlation? Definitely.
Causation? Dunno, hopefully at least somewhat.
\bragging0 -
Awesome job. And this is why you change your program.
I know when i hit walls with my shoulder press i would just drop my working weight by 10 pounds, tweak my assistance lifts and i'd break the wall. Rinse and repeat.
I recently re-wrote my program and this first week is kicking my *kitten*, i'll run it for a couple cycles to see if it is in a good way.
I'm so pissed i didn't know about this stuff as well when i was in my 20's...0 -
Missed this when first posted so just tagging.0
This discussion has been closed.