Eating meat 'as bad as smoking'

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  • ascrit
    ascrit Posts: 770 Member
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    Well she's been vegan for like 6 years and her health/fitness have only improved over that whole time. I am seeing with my own eyes that it is a healthy lifestyle.
  • Nutmeg76
    Nutmeg76 Posts: 258 Member
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    Well she's been vegan for like 6 years and her health/fitness have only improved over that whole time. I am seeing with my own eyes that it is a healthy lifestyle.

    What "kind" of vegan is she. I think that makes a big difference. Some that do it for ethical reasons only eat crap, some that do it for health, but follow the ideal that grains are nutritous also eat a lot of crap. There are difeinitely healthier ways to be vegan, and even some people that do well on a vegan diet long term. The problem is that not all people can eat vegan and be healthy.
  • tennisdude2004
    tennisdude2004 Posts: 5,609 Member
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    Thanks for sharing the rebuttal, although I didn’t agree with it fully, it provided some sense to the whole thing. This was my favorite analogy, simple and true, “just because we observe singing in the bath, it does not mean that being in the bath causes singing any more than singing causes being in the bath.”

    Singing in the bath - best analogy ever!

    I'm afraid I shall be committing plagiarism with that later. :smile:
  • strychnine7
    strychnine7 Posts: 210 Member
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    Anyone who is a vegan for ethical reasons is a hypocrite. Untold numbers of animals are killed in the farming process of their staple foods. They don't even use the dead animals that are killed. If vegans really cared, they would go out of their way to avoid such death, whether that means farming their own food from start to finish or buying from someone else who does. But they don't. Because, while living a conventional vegan life is not too inconvenient, living one that is actually consistent with their ideas is too inconvenient.
  • Quinnstinct
    Quinnstinct Posts: 274 Member
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    I for one choose to eat how I eat because it makes me feel good, if other people choose to eat differently then that is their choice and far be it for me to judge them or make them out to "suck young girls into it and then they develop eating disorders". Wow, let's try and focus on ourselves and not malign other people for their choices. I don't like hearing how eating fat is bad or not eating grain isn't sustainable I'm pretty sure people who don't eat meat don't want to hear about why someone else thinks that is wrong as well. I don't go to the main forums because of the hateful judgement spewed there and it's starting to feel that way here.
  • Akimajuktuq
    Akimajuktuq Posts: 3,037 Member
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    I for one choose to eat how I eat because it makes me feel good, if other people choose to eat differently then that is their choice and far be it for me to judge them or make them out to "suck young girls into it and then they develop eating disorders". Wow, let's try and focus on ourselves and not malign other people for their choices. I don't like hearing how eating fat is bad or not eating grain isn't sustainable I'm pretty sure people who don't eat meat don't want to hear about why someone else thinks that is wrong as well. I don't go to the main forums because of the hateful judgement spewed there and it's starting to feel that way here.

    I was specifically speaking to organizations like PETA who advertise in teen magazines, at schools, other places specifically aimed at children re: my comment about eating disorders. Any lifestyle that shames and pressures young people (children/teens do not have fully developed brains!) to a diet, based on fallacies, that has the potential to harm health is unacceptable. I suggest you read some published accounts written by former vegans who explain how they came to be vegan, many of whom also developed eating disorders (I suspect because of malnutrition). I did not malign all vegans because of their choice to be vegan. I gave valid arguments why I think it is not ethical, which was my point. If veganism isn't healthier (imo and generally the opinion of Paleo experts and many other people who share my lifestyle) and isn't more "ethical", what's left? Please re-read my comments. I have strong opinions certainly, but I did NOT spew "hateful judgment". Everything that I say is my opinion and my experience.

    As far as I know, this is NOT a vegan forum and my opinion that vegan diets are not healthy nor ethical should not be taken as a personal attack on anyone nor is it fair to insinuate that by having a different view than you I am ruining this entire forum. I would NEVER join a vegan forum and share my views. That IS completely inappropriate.
  • Akimajuktuq
    Akimajuktuq Posts: 3,037 Member
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    Anyone who is a vegan for ethical reasons is a hypocrite. Untold numbers of animals are killed in the farming process of their staple foods. They don't even use the dead animals that are killed. If vegans really cared, they would go out of their way to avoid such death, whether that means farming their own food from start to finish or buying from someone else who does. But they don't. Because, while living a conventional vegan life is not too inconvenient, living one that is actually consistent with their ideas is too inconvenient.

    Many people have a huge disconnect with where their food comes from and I think that's truly a large part of why we are in the mess we are in now with unsustainable farming, synthetic fertilizers/pesticides, animal abuse, destruction of the food supply, etc. In my experience, it's vegans, specifically urban vegan/vegetarians, who are among the most disconnected from where their food comes from and how it is produced. When there are organizations like PETA who get millions of dollars in donations to help push their agenda on young people, that's where I get less accepting of the vegan lifestyle. (and forcing children to be vegans when no society in human history ever survived on just plant foods!)
  • tennisdude2004
    tennisdude2004 Posts: 5,609 Member
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    The only vegan I I've seen is one of the super ex's from scott pilgram vs the world (and he wasn't very nice).:smile:
  • ascrit
    ascrit Posts: 770 Member
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    The vegan lifestyle and paleo lifestyle are essentially the same if you sub out meat for grains.
  • each_day_stronger
    each_day_stronger Posts: 191 Member
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    Let's not get on a hate on vegans session please! I used to be one! It wasn't because I was a hypocrite! It was because I was misinformed and I thought at the time that I was doing something good for the earth, animals and me. It's hard to get accurate information out there. While I would never recommend people go vegan, I think it taught me how to eat vegetables, how to read a label, and got me to start thinking about food ethics and nutrition which eventually lead me to paleo. Keep an open heart and an open mind and remember that unfortunately we aren't born knowing how to eat anymore, we have to learn.
  • GrokRockStar
    GrokRockStar Posts: 2,938 Member
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    Wow, this kinda went south! Simma down ya'll! I actually have a vegan-paleo friend who is a certified CrossFit trainer, and damn she's healthy!
  • Akimajuktuq
    Akimajuktuq Posts: 3,037 Member
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    The vegan lifestyle and paleo lifestyle are essentially the same if you sub out meat for grains.

    Agreed! Minus the bogus ethical assertion. But that subbing the meat for grains makes ALL the difference when it comes to health.

    People: please stop taking a difference of opinion as "hate" and personal attack. I completely understand that I came off strong and that I have a less than flowery writing style, but I am not hating or attacking anyone. I will speak out strongly when a particular lifestyle has the potential to harm- especially one that is used to shame young people. I agree to disagree that a vegan diet can be healthy. Not for the long term. The proof is in the fact that there were ZERO vegan societies in all of human history. It's a frightening experiment and enough former vegans have weighed in on the long term results to health that I cannot accept it as a healthy option for anyone. Personal choice? Sure. Ethical? No.

    Please Google "hate speech". Disagreeing and strong opinion is not "hate". I do not hate vegan people, not ever. PETA… yeah, I hate the organization, but not the people in it.
  • GrokRockStar
    GrokRockStar Posts: 2,938 Member
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    PETA is the worst organization on the planet!! their tactics are inhumane. I am an animal lover, but I would never put any animal before a human, especially the animals that I choose to eat!!
  • each_day_stronger
    each_day_stronger Posts: 191 Member
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    Hey Akimajuktuq, I didn't mean to imply that you or anyone else here was conducting hate speech. Sorry if it came out that way. I meant hate in terms of a more casual "haters gunna hate" kind of thing. Just trying to give a friendly reminder that we're all learning, and some of us mean very well but have been fed a false narrative. The ethics of veganism (IMO) are rooted in a good intentions. Factory farming sucks. Destruction of the earth sucks. Unfortunately (or maybe I should say fortunately) there are other ways to tackle these problems that are I believe more effective (and delicious!) and don't damage one's health than abstaining from animal products.

    I totally understand the feeling of "ahaha we are better than silly vegetarians" but I also know that those opinions turned me off from considering paleo stuff before when I was stuck with a vegetarian mindset. Fortunately I read some folks who sympathized with vegetarians but also were able to explain why it was wrong. That's what ultimately helped me to change.

    If any folks reading this are confused about why vegetarianism is a nice idea, but perhaps not the best route towards health/ethical issues as I once was I would recommend http://rawfoodsos.com/the-china-study/ and The Vegetarian Myth.
  • astridfeline
    astridfeline Posts: 1,200 Member
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    crop agriculture in the absence of animals (aka nutrient cycle) destroys soil. Man made fertilizers and pesticides, genetically modified organisms, plus food politics (control/dominance/patenting/loss of diversity of crops) will soon be the end of our food supply. Most food now sickens, rather than nourishes, and it's by design.

    This is what irks me about pro-vegetarian/vegan arguments claiming that plant agriculture is less environmentally destructive than animal agriculture. They obviously don't know about the dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico, caused by fertilizer run-off down the Mississippi from the corn mono-crops in the Mid West.

    http://science.time.com/2013/06/19/this-years-gulf-of-mexico-dead-zone-could-be-the-biggest-on-record/
  • Dragonwolf
    Dragonwolf Posts: 5,600 Member
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    [...] some of us mean very well but have been fed a false narrative.

    I think that's exactly Akima's point. So often, the vegan evangelists will tell you that veganism is the (ethical) path to perfect health or some such. What they don't tell you are the not-so-rosy things like the fact that the diet is deficient by nature and 80% of vegans are deficient in one or more nutrients, or that the "cruelty-free" diet...isn't. That's the problem Akima (and others, including myself) have with veganism -- not the people who are misled by the evangelists and militants, but those that are doing the misleading.
  • ascrit
    ascrit Posts: 770 Member
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    People: please stop taking a difference of opinion as "hate" and personal attack. I completely understand that I came off strong and that I have a less than flowery writing style, but I am not hating or attacking anyone. I will speak out strongly when a particular lifestyle has the potential to harm- especially one that is used to shame young people. I agree to disagree that a vegan diet can be healthy. Not for the long term. The proof is in the fact that there were ZERO vegan societies in all of human history. It's a frightening experiment and enough former vegans have weighed in on the long term results to health that I cannot accept it as a healthy option for anyone. Personal choice? Sure. Ethical? No.

    A crucial part of any experiment is having a proper amount of time to realize and document results. When it comes to highly variable experiments involving human lifestyle changes that can mean multiple generations. So if the vegan lifestyle is an experiment then why not give those who are practicing it enough time to show the results instead of decrying it as "dangerous" and "unsustainable" after a relatively short period of time? I have seen people who advocate for the paleo lifestyle ask for the same consideration.

    Also, I would be surprised if you could not find just as many people who tried paleo and found it to be "dangerous" or "unsustainable" as the former vegans you keep mentioning.

    It seems to me that your opinions about the vegan lifestyle are based on anecdotal evidence and personal bias with very few (if any) relevant facts to back them up. That's fine and I certainly don't begrudge you but your alarmist tone certainly doesn't help anything; least of which the position you advocate.
  • Dragonwolf
    Dragonwolf Posts: 5,600 Member
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    People: please stop taking a difference of opinion as "hate" and personal attack. I completely understand that I came off strong and that I have a less than flowery writing style, but I am not hating or attacking anyone. I will speak out strongly when a particular lifestyle has the potential to harm- especially one that is used to shame young people. I agree to disagree that a vegan diet can be healthy. Not for the long term. The proof is in the fact that there were ZERO vegan societies in all of human history. It's a frightening experiment and enough former vegans have weighed in on the long term results to health that I cannot accept it as a healthy option for anyone. Personal choice? Sure. Ethical? No.

    A crucial part of any experiment is having a proper amount of time to realize and document results. When it comes to highly variable experiments involving human lifestyle changes that can mean multiple generations. So if the vegan lifestyle is an experiment then why not give those who are practicing it enough time to show the results instead of decrying it as "dangerous" and "unsustainable" after a relatively short period of time? I have seen people who advocate for the paleo lifestyle ask for the same consideration.

    Also, I would be surprised if you could not find just as many people who tried paleo and found it to be "dangerous" or "unsustainable" as the former vegans you keep mentioning.

    It seems to me that your opinions about the vegan lifestyle are based on anecdotal evidence and personal bias with very few (if any) relevant facts to back them up. That's fine and I certainly don't begrudge you but your alarmist tone certainly doesn't help anything; least of which the position you advocate.

    From what I've seen, the negative effects start happening in as little as a year (basically, as soon as your body depletes its B12 stores), but even so, a lot of the stories I hear from ex-vegans are ones who have been that way for 5, 15, and even 20+ years, when the effects of lots of grains and soy start rearing their ugly heads.

    http://www.westonaprice.org/vegetarianism-and-plant-foods/vegetarianism-and-nutrient-deficiencies (Chris Masterjohn's notes on the deficiencies in the vegan diet; he was vegan for 2 years until his health fell apart)
    http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/frank-talk/index.shtml (bunches of resources on the truths of veganism)
    http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=1728051 (reposting of Vegan No More, one of the most-read ex-vegan articles out there; Tasha had to take the original down, because she was being stalked and both she and her family were the target of death threats)
    http://letthemeatmeat.com/post/3141542244/interview-with-an-ex-vegan-tasha (interview with writer of Vegan No More)
    http://www.westonaprice.org/vegetarianism-and-plant-foods/not-to-go-vegetarian (a counter to an old article on reasons to go vegetarian)
    http://happyherbivore.com/2011/10/im-not-vegan-anymore/ (comments on how many vegans treat others)
    http://kristensraw.com/blog/2013/03/17/my-vegan-diet-caused-health-problems-would-primal-paleo-or-real-food-be-better/ (vegan nearly a decade, notes issues with her child, fertility issues, skin issues, dental issues, and bloating due to the vegan diet)
  • Akimajuktuq
    Akimajuktuq Posts: 3,037 Member
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    People: please stop taking a difference of opinion as "hate" and personal attack. I completely understand that I came off strong and that I have a less than flowery writing style, but I am not hating or attacking anyone. I will speak out strongly when a particular lifestyle has the potential to harm- especially one that is used to shame young people. I agree to disagree that a vegan diet can be healthy. Not for the long term. The proof is in the fact that there were ZERO vegan societies in all of human history. It's a frightening experiment and enough former vegans have weighed in on the long term results to health that I cannot accept it as a healthy option for anyone. Personal choice? Sure. Ethical? No.

    A crucial part of any experiment is having a proper amount of time to realize and document results. When it comes to highly variable experiments involving human lifestyle changes that can mean multiple generations. So if the vegan lifestyle is an experiment then why not give those who are practicing it enough time to show the results instead of decrying it as "dangerous" and "unsustainable" after a relatively short period of time? I have seen people who advocate for the paleo lifestyle ask for the same consideration.

    Also, I would be surprised if you could not find just as many people who tried paleo and found it to be "dangerous" or "unsustainable" as the former vegans you keep mentioning.

    It seems to me that your opinions about the vegan lifestyle are based on anecdotal evidence and personal bias with very few (if any) relevant facts to back them up. That's fine and I certainly don't begrudge you but your alarmist tone certainly doesn't help anything; least of which the position you advocate.

    So, it's not "relevant" and "anecdotal" that no human society in our entire history survived on a vegan diet? That's the most relevant thing I can think of when talking about whether a diet is healthy (biologically appropriate) or not.

    If I were in a vegan forum I would understand why my view is unacceptable. I am not in a vegan forum.
  • ascrit
    ascrit Posts: 770 Member
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    People: please stop taking a difference of opinion as "hate" and personal attack. I completely understand that I came off strong and that I have a less than flowery writing style, but I am not hating or attacking anyone. I will speak out strongly when a particular lifestyle has the potential to harm- especially one that is used to shame young people. I agree to disagree that a vegan diet can be healthy. Not for the long term. The proof is in the fact that there were ZERO vegan societies in all of human history. It's a frightening experiment and enough former vegans have weighed in on the long term results to health that I cannot accept it as a healthy option for anyone. Personal choice? Sure. Ethical? No.

    A crucial part of any experiment is having a proper amount of time to realize and document results. When it comes to highly variable experiments involving human lifestyle changes that can mean multiple generations. So if the vegan lifestyle is an experiment then why not give those who are practicing it enough time to show the results instead of decrying it as "dangerous" and "unsustainable" after a relatively short period of time? I have seen people who advocate for the paleo lifestyle ask for the same consideration.

    Also, I would be surprised if you could not find just as many people who tried paleo and found it to be "dangerous" or "unsustainable" as the former vegans you keep mentioning.

    It seems to me that your opinions about the vegan lifestyle are based on anecdotal evidence and personal bias with very few (if any) relevant facts to back them up. That's fine and I certainly don't begrudge you but your alarmist tone certainly doesn't help anything; least of which the position you advocate.

    So, it's not "relevant" and "anecdotal" that no human society in our entire history survived on a vegan diet? That's the most relevant thing I can think of when talking about whether a diet is healthy (biologically appropriate) or not.

    If I were in a vegan forum I would understand why my view is unacceptable. I am not in a vegan forum.

    I would venture to guess the lifestyle which benefits the most from modern technology and modern agriculture is the vegan lifestyle. Simply put, it would have been much more difficult if not impossible to be a vegan back when you had to worry about the seasonality of crops or being able to preserve them for longer periods of time.

    Think about it like this; as humans don't have wings it is not "biologically appropriate" for humans to fly yet technology allows for that to happen to our great benefit. Science/technology/knowledge/understanding allows us to reach beyond our biological limitations and take advantage of life in a way that wasn't possible for our ancestors. Perhaps the vegan lifestyle fits into that category. Just because something is new doesn't mean that it is bad.