Transgender Woman Sues CrossFit
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Just a question, does anybody know how Crossfit even found out she was born a man?
From the CNN.com article:
"The lawsuit alleges that a CrossFit teammate of Jonsson's sent an anonymous e-mail to the games organizers asking about transgender athletes in the competition. CrossFit determined that competitors in the event had to compete in the gender of their birth."0 -
Just food for thought on this...
The International Olympic Committee has already considered the issue of transgendered athletes competing at the Olympics. They came to the opposite decision of CrossFit. If Chloie was an Olympic athlete, she would be competing with other women. Because she is a woman.0 -
Just food for thought on this...
The International Olympic Committee has already considered the issue of transgendered athletes competing at the Olympics. They came to the opposite decision of CrossFit. If Chloie was an Olympic athlete, she would be competing with other women. Because she is a woman.
It's not that cut and dry. Anyone that is transgender has to wait 2 years. BUT since she did the transformation in 2006, she's obviously has had enough time.0 -
http://games.crossfit.com/athlete/161983
She is 5'4" and 151 lbs so it is not like she has a great physical advantage over other female athletes.
She hasn't got a great height and weight advantage, sure, but there is more to it than that. My boyfriend is barely taller than me, and weighs less than I do, but is he stronger than me? Absolutely! He has a different skeletal and muscular structure which lends itself far more to lifting heavy objects over his head, running and jumping. Whereas my skeletal and muscular structure lends itself well to childbirth, and lying on my sofa eating chocolate ;-P0 -
http://games.crossfit.com/athlete/161983
She is 5'4" and 151 lbs so it is not like she has a great physical advantage over other female athletes.
She hasn't got a great height and weight advantage, sure, but there is more to it than that. My boyfriend is barely taller than me, and weighs less than I do, but is he stronger than me? Absolutely! He has a different skeletal and muscular structure which lends itself far more to lifting heavy objects over his head, running and jumping. Whereas my skeletal and muscular structure lends itself well to childbirth, and lying on my sofa eating chocolate ;-P
And that is primarily a product of his greater testosterone levels. The NCAA has also looked at the issue of transgender athletes and have set guidlines that are similar but LESS stringent than the IOC guidelines:
"The NCAA instituted somewhat less stringent guidelines in 2011. They do not require surgery, and they require only one year on testosterone suppression for male-to-female transgender athletes." - from this article about transgender athletes http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/do-transgender-athletes-have-an-unfair-advantage_b_4918835.html
Also from that article, the conclusionsof the medical experts who consulted on the NCAA policy had this to say:It is also important to know that any strength and endurance advantages a transgender woman arguably may have as a result of her prior testosterone levels dissipate after about one year of estrogen or testosterone-suppression therapy. According to medical experts on this issue, the assumption that a transgender woman competing on a women's team would have a competitive advantage outside the range of performance and competitive advantage or disadvantage that already exists among female athletes is not supported by evidence.
The arguments about advantages because of development during puberty and prior to gender reassignment surgery and testosterone suppression don't seem to hold water.0 -
The arguments about advantages because of development during puberty and prior to gender reassignment surgery and testosterone suppression don't seem to hold water.
Oh, that's an eye-opener! Thanks!0 -
The arguments about advantages because of development during puberty and prior to gender reassignment surgery and testosterone suppression don't seem to hold water.
I think that it is extremely premature to make that judgement. This is an emotionally and even politically charged situation. No one wants to limit the rights of citizens through discrimination. But here is the problem. In this instance, if we snap to a decision without full scientific investigation because it isn't politically correct, the outcome is that it could interfere with fair play in sport. The fact is, there is not a large body of scientific research on whether the transgendered have an advantage or not. The arguments for and against both have merit but when we are looking at just a few cases over several decades, the evidence has very little scientific weight.0 -
The arguments about advantages because of development during puberty and prior to gender reassignment surgery and testosterone suppression don't seem to hold water.
I think that it is extremely premature to make that judgement. This is an emotionally and even politically charged situation. No one wants to limit the rights of citizens through discrimination. But here is the problem. In this instance, if we snap to a decision without full scientific investigation because it isn't politically correct, the outcome is that it could interfere with fair play in sport. The fact is, there is not a large body of scientific research on whether the transgendered have an advantage or not. The arguments for and against both have merit but when we are looking at just a few cases over several decades, the evidence has very little scientific weight.
I would much rather error in favor of inclusiveness than the "fair play" of the sport. Besides, CrossFit is supposed to be all about competing against and imporving YOURSELF, not necessarily about competing against others. So what if she wins and it turns out that in 10 years after voluminous scientific research it was determined that gender reassignment provides an advantage? Is that really going to hurt anything? Nope.0 -
The arguments about advantages because of development during puberty and prior to gender reassignment surgery and testosterone suppression don't seem to hold water.
I think that it is extremely premature to make that judgement. This is an emotionally and even politically charged situation. No one wants to limit the rights of citizens through discrimination. But here is the problem. In this instance, if we snap to a decision without full scientific investigation because it isn't politically correct, the outcome is that it could interfere with fair play in sport. The fact is, there is not a large body of scientific research on whether the transgendered have an advantage or not. The arguments for and against both have merit but when we are looking at just a few cases over several decades, the evidence has very little scientific weight.
I would much rather error in favor of inclusiveness than the "fair play" of the sport. Besides, CrossFit is supposed to be all about competing against and imporving YOURSELF, not necessarily about competing against others. So what if she wins and it turns out that in 10 years after voluminous scientific research it was determined that gender reassignment provides an advantage? Is that really going to hurt anything? Nope.
Actually, if she wins and in 10 years it is determined that she had an advantage, yes, the person that got 2nd place and 3rd place, etc are hurt. They would have missed their lifelong dream of winning and huge financial rewards. The fact is, CrossFit as an exercise program is about improving yourself but the objective of The CrossFit Games is about competing against others and determining who deserves the title of The Fittest Man and Woman on Earth. Fair play is a core value of sport and should never be discounted. Inclusiveness is also a value but since this is a competition, it is a value not outweighed by the need for fair play.0 -
The arguments about advantages because of development during puberty and prior to gender reassignment surgery and testosterone suppression don't seem to hold water.
I think that it is extremely premature to make that judgement. This is an emotionally and even politically charged situation. No one wants to limit the rights of citizens through discrimination. But here is the problem. In this instance, if we snap to a decision without full scientific investigation because it isn't politically correct, the outcome is that it could interfere with fair play in sport. The fact is, there is not a large body of scientific research on whether the transgendered have an advantage or not. The arguments for and against both have merit but when we are looking at just a few cases over several decades, the evidence has very little scientific weight.
I would much rather error in favor of inclusiveness than the "fair play" of the sport. Besides, CrossFit is supposed to be all about competing against and imporving YOURSELF, not necessarily about competing against others. So what if she wins and it turns out that in 10 years after voluminous scientific research it was determined that gender reassignment provides an advantage? Is that really going to hurt anything? Nope.
Actually, if she wins and in 10 years it is determined that she had an advantage, yes, the person that got 2nd place and 3rd place, etc are hurt. They would have missed their lifelong dream of winning and huge financial rewards. The fact is, CrossFit as an exercise program is about improving yourself but the objective of The CrossFit Games is about competing against others and determining who deserves the title of The Fittest Man and Woman on Earth. Fair play is a core value of sport and should never be discounted. Inclusiveness is also a value but since this is a competition, it is a value not outweighed by the need for fair play.
In sports and competition you can still gain something even if you don't win; the idea that you tried your best, a sense of accomplishment from pushing your boundaries, a sense of camaraderie with your teammates and/or opponents, etc. Just winning does not have to be the end all/be all. Like the old saying, "it is not whether you win or lose but how you played the game." When you weigh that against the choice to institutionally shun someone because of their sexuality (something they have no control over) it seems quite petty.0 -
When you weigh that against the choice to institutionally shun someone because of their sexuality (something they have no control over) it seems quite petty.
I agree wholeheartedly. Institutionally shunning someone for their sexuality is indeed petty and it is discrimination. However, CrossFit did not single this person out for her sexuality. She was removed from competition due to the very strong case that she has an advantage over female opponents for having spent about 28 years developing as a man. Even if she no longer has the real time advantageous effects of muscle recovery and growth from male levels of testosterone, it is almost certain that she is taller with broader shoulders and bigger lung capacity than had she never had developed with male levels of those anabolic hormones.0 -
Why can't she look up the work outs, time herself and see where she stacks up?
If the games are privately owned, it's the owner's decision how they interpret THEIR rules. She has the CHOICE not to participate.0 -
Her status as a transgender woman is part of her sexuality and is the root of why she was kicked out. I also take issue with there being a "strong case" for her having an advantage given that the research has been at best inconclusive. Again, I would rather they error on the side of inclusiveness than being narrow minded. As for her shoulders/lung capacity those are genetic traits which could not be helped. I'm sure there are many high level female athletes who have broader shoulders and greater lung capacities than your average woman, perhaps even more so than Chloie Jonsson who is only 5'4" so I don't think that your perceived advantage is really significant at all.
I agree wholeheartedly. Institutionally shunning someone for their sexuality is indeed petty and it is discrimination. However, CrossFit did not single this person out for her sexuality. She was removed from competition due to the very strong case that she has an advantage over female opponents for having spent about 28 years developing as a man. Even if she no longer has the real time advantageous effects of muscle recovery and growth from male levels of testosterone, it is almost certain that she is taller with broader shoulders and bigger lung capacity than had she never had developed with male levels of those anabolic hormones.When you weigh that against the choice to institutionally shun someone because of their sexuality (something they have no control over) it seems quite petty.
I don't know if CrossFit Inc wholly owns the Games themselves but the main sponsor (Reebok) is owned by a public company (Adidas) FWIW. It is a bad look, that's for sure.Why can't she look up the work outs, time herself and see where she stacks up?
If the games are privately owned, it's the owner's decision how they interpret THEIR rules. She has the CHOICE not to participate.0 -
Here is a newspaper article with a lot of pics. I have to say she doesn't look like she would have a distinct physical advantage over other women...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576016/Transgender-woman-sues-CrossFit-competition.html0 -
I understand CF's argument, I just don't think it's going to work. If the Olympics allow transgendered athletes, CF is going to have a tough time explaining why they can't.0
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The arguments about advantages because of development during puberty and prior to gender reassignment surgery and testosterone suppression don't seem to hold water.
I think that it is extremely premature to make that judgement. This is an emotionally and even politically charged situation. No one wants to limit the rights of citizens through discrimination. But here is the problem. In this instance, if we snap to a decision without full scientific investigation because it isn't politically correct, the outcome is that it could interfere with fair play in sport. The fact is, there is not a large body of scientific research on whether the transgendered have an advantage or not. The arguments for and against both have merit but when we are looking at just a few cases over several decades, the evidence has very little scientific weight.
It appears that quite a bit of evidence exists from the other posts. It is not Crossfit specific but has been dealt with by other sports organizations for a very long time.
CF is going to end up reversing course or getting whipped in court on this one.0 -
I watched a documentary years ago about a Canadian Mountain Biker M-F who was appealing to be classed as a woman in a competition. Evidence actually showed she didn't have an advantage being born a man due to the hormone therapy that she underwent (so no more testosterone) if anything when she first underwent therapy she had a disadvantage as any excess muscle she had previously carried turned to fat. CrossFit are absolutely in the wrong with this one, they should let her compete as a woman, not exclude based on outdated values and they should be working to discourage this type of discrimination.0
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Here is a newspaper article with a lot of pics. I have to say she doesn't look like she would have a distinct physical advantage over other women...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576016/Transgender-woman-sues-CrossFit-competition.html
The Daily Mail's status as a newspaper is highly debatable ;-) By all means look at the pictures but don't believe a word they write...0 -
CrossFit tends to act without thinking everything through. That may have been ok when they were a small business but they are huge now and it just is not appropriate. If they just let her compete I doubt it would have been a big deal. The chances that she gets to regionals are slim not to mention the chances of even going to the games is even a sliver of that. If CrossFit just let it go, it would not have even materially impacted the outcome of the competition, and regarding the precedent, this did not come up for 7 years so why are they concerned that it will surface more often?0
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CrossFit tends to act without thinking everything through. That may have been ok when they were a small business but they are huge now and it just is not appropriate. If they just let her compete I doubt it would have been a big deal. The chances that she gets to regionals are slim not to mention the chances of even going to the games is even a sliver of that. If CrossFit just let it go, it would not have even materially impacted the outcome of the competition, and regarding the precedent, this did not come up for 7 years so why are they concerned that it will surface more often?
wouldn't have affected anything this time around. but in 5 years? when perhaps several transgendered women are competing? and a couple MIGHT actually be good enough to go to the games? then what...0
