4 weeks in - my experience upping cals and next steps?
Skicarmach
Posts: 8 Member
Sorry this is so long -- but I want to provide all the information that might be relevant. I have read all the sticky posts and I think I have the basics down, but I do have some questions.
I started Weight Watchers in October. I tracked all my points, but also kept a daily tally of calories on my phone. In January, I started getting concerned that I was averaging only 800-1000 calories/day. I was also doing a lot of cardio (1.5-3 hours/day) I wasn't ever hungry and worried about losing lean body mass.
So, I researched maintenance, metabolic slowdown and eat more to weigh less. I filtered out all the people who are maintaining on 1200-1300 calories -- it just doesn't seem like any way to live.
Stats:
Female
47 years (yikes!)
5'3"
Starting Weight on 10/16 - 150
Starting Weight EM2WL on 3/1 - 127.2
Current Weight - 122.4
Body Fat: Omron handheld monitor - 32%, Covert Bailey - 25%
Target Macros: 40% protein, 30% carbs, 30% fat
Goals: I don't really know, I want to decrease body fat and preserve muscle mass. My doctor wants me to weigh 110 (not sure why, my bloodwork is excellent across the board and my blood pressure is at the very lowest end of the healthy range). I am worried both about maintaining at 110 and the amount of muscle mass I might lose. I also really don't want to be one of those skinny "women of a certain age" who look 15 years older because their faces are so thin.
EM2WL experience:
NUTRITION: My plan was to increase my calories to 1200/day until I started losing again and then continue the cycle until I could maintain at close to TDEE. I upped my protein to between 90 and 120 grams/day. Averaging around 110. I weigh everything that can be weighed and measure everything else. I rarely eat out and eat very few processed foods.
The first 2 weeks I struggled to up my calories from averaging 1000/day to averaging 1200/day. The scale went up the expected 2 pounds. The third week I was more consistent in eating between 1150 and 1260. The scale went down 2.2 pounds.
The fourth week (this past week) is where it gets kind of weird, my daily totals were:
1200, 1182, 1471, 2776 (dining out on a business trip), 1506, 1305, 1371 -- I expected the scale to go up (was fine with that), but it went down from 125.8 to 122.4.
FITNESS:
Strength Training: 20-30 minutes every other day: When I started EM2WL, I started lifting "heavy" (well, heavy for me, 3 reps of 12 at an amount where the last few reps of each set are a struggle) using compound moves. I have increased the amount of weight I use for each movement every week.
Cardio: On weight training days, I generally round out the hour with some moderate cardio on the elliptical or stationary bike. On the other days, I have cut back my cardio time but increased the intensity. Not sure I would call it HIT, but I generally do intensity cycles of 3,3,3 and 1 -- where the final 1 minute is almost impossible to finish. I do that for 30 minutes and then an additional 30 minutes at 5,5, and 5 (taking out the highest intensity). I actually really love my cardio time (not so much the lifting). I don't take rest days, but two days a week are just tennis (an hour of singles or 2 of doubles).
Fitbit/Additional Activity: I am pretty sedentary. I spend a lot of time in the car. I did buy a fitbit, and I always get at least 10,000 steps, but some days it is a struggle to hit that number. Don't know how accurate it is, but when I use my heart rate monitor to override the fitbit for the cardio time, my fitbit says I average around 2100 calories burned per day. I do not log my weight training on MFP or on the fitbit.
IN GENERAL: I feel better - I have more energy, feel stronger and wake up easier. I am actually hungry again. 3 weeks ago I had to force myself to eat breakfast, now I wake up hungry.
MY QUESTIONS:
1. Should I continue my gradual increase (1300/day this week, 1400/day next week . . . ) or, because I have started losing quickly again, should I accelerate my increase?
2. Any advice on what my goals should be? If I use the handheld omron, I have a lot of excess body fat. If I use covert bailey, I have less body fat to lose. Seems like Covert Bailey is more of an estimate, so my instinct is to use the omron and make my goal 23% on the omron.
3. How will I know when I have found my actual maintenance level? I have TDEE estimates (at lightly active), but they are just estimates. Is it when the scale and/or my body fat percentage doesn't move outside a certain range for a month?
4. How sore do I need to be to know I am strengthening my muscles? In the past when I did boot camp, I could barely walk or straighten my arms for 2 or 3 days after a session. These days, I am definitely sore on my off days but I don't have any real trouble in my daily activities.
Again, I am so sorry this is so long. I really do appreciate any advice! I appreciate everyone in this group and am truly grateful to everyone, especially heybales and the mods, who are consistently so generous with their time and wisdom!
I started Weight Watchers in October. I tracked all my points, but also kept a daily tally of calories on my phone. In January, I started getting concerned that I was averaging only 800-1000 calories/day. I was also doing a lot of cardio (1.5-3 hours/day) I wasn't ever hungry and worried about losing lean body mass.
So, I researched maintenance, metabolic slowdown and eat more to weigh less. I filtered out all the people who are maintaining on 1200-1300 calories -- it just doesn't seem like any way to live.
Stats:
Female
47 years (yikes!)
5'3"
Starting Weight on 10/16 - 150
Starting Weight EM2WL on 3/1 - 127.2
Current Weight - 122.4
Body Fat: Omron handheld monitor - 32%, Covert Bailey - 25%
Target Macros: 40% protein, 30% carbs, 30% fat
Goals: I don't really know, I want to decrease body fat and preserve muscle mass. My doctor wants me to weigh 110 (not sure why, my bloodwork is excellent across the board and my blood pressure is at the very lowest end of the healthy range). I am worried both about maintaining at 110 and the amount of muscle mass I might lose. I also really don't want to be one of those skinny "women of a certain age" who look 15 years older because their faces are so thin.
EM2WL experience:
NUTRITION: My plan was to increase my calories to 1200/day until I started losing again and then continue the cycle until I could maintain at close to TDEE. I upped my protein to between 90 and 120 grams/day. Averaging around 110. I weigh everything that can be weighed and measure everything else. I rarely eat out and eat very few processed foods.
The first 2 weeks I struggled to up my calories from averaging 1000/day to averaging 1200/day. The scale went up the expected 2 pounds. The third week I was more consistent in eating between 1150 and 1260. The scale went down 2.2 pounds.
The fourth week (this past week) is where it gets kind of weird, my daily totals were:
1200, 1182, 1471, 2776 (dining out on a business trip), 1506, 1305, 1371 -- I expected the scale to go up (was fine with that), but it went down from 125.8 to 122.4.
FITNESS:
Strength Training: 20-30 minutes every other day: When I started EM2WL, I started lifting "heavy" (well, heavy for me, 3 reps of 12 at an amount where the last few reps of each set are a struggle) using compound moves. I have increased the amount of weight I use for each movement every week.
Cardio: On weight training days, I generally round out the hour with some moderate cardio on the elliptical or stationary bike. On the other days, I have cut back my cardio time but increased the intensity. Not sure I would call it HIT, but I generally do intensity cycles of 3,3,3 and 1 -- where the final 1 minute is almost impossible to finish. I do that for 30 minutes and then an additional 30 minutes at 5,5, and 5 (taking out the highest intensity). I actually really love my cardio time (not so much the lifting). I don't take rest days, but two days a week are just tennis (an hour of singles or 2 of doubles).
Fitbit/Additional Activity: I am pretty sedentary. I spend a lot of time in the car. I did buy a fitbit, and I always get at least 10,000 steps, but some days it is a struggle to hit that number. Don't know how accurate it is, but when I use my heart rate monitor to override the fitbit for the cardio time, my fitbit says I average around 2100 calories burned per day. I do not log my weight training on MFP or on the fitbit.
IN GENERAL: I feel better - I have more energy, feel stronger and wake up easier. I am actually hungry again. 3 weeks ago I had to force myself to eat breakfast, now I wake up hungry.
MY QUESTIONS:
1. Should I continue my gradual increase (1300/day this week, 1400/day next week . . . ) or, because I have started losing quickly again, should I accelerate my increase?
2. Any advice on what my goals should be? If I use the handheld omron, I have a lot of excess body fat. If I use covert bailey, I have less body fat to lose. Seems like Covert Bailey is more of an estimate, so my instinct is to use the omron and make my goal 23% on the omron.
3. How will I know when I have found my actual maintenance level? I have TDEE estimates (at lightly active), but they are just estimates. Is it when the scale and/or my body fat percentage doesn't move outside a certain range for a month?
4. How sore do I need to be to know I am strengthening my muscles? In the past when I did boot camp, I could barely walk or straighten my arms for 2 or 3 days after a session. These days, I am definitely sore on my off days but I don't have any real trouble in my daily activities.
Again, I am so sorry this is so long. I really do appreciate any advice! I appreciate everyone in this group and am truly grateful to everyone, especially heybales and the mods, who are consistently so generous with their time and wisdom!
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Replies
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First, confirm your own weight-ins that you do math with are from valid weigh-in days, any others are just noise invalid for that purpose until you have like a months worth and merely for direction.
Valid weigh-in to minimize false water weight gain or loss:
Morning after rest day eating normal sodium levels, not sore from last workout.
So you might review those past weigh-ins to see which are valid to do math on. Especially with 6 workout days, you only have 1 possible morning.
Second, always do the math with any gain or loss to discern if it can or cannot be fat, or must include water, perhaps muscle mass.
Amount of change 3.4 lbs x 3500 / 7 days = 1700 difference between eating and TDEE level - if fat. In this case deficit.
So add that to your average eating level for that week of 1544 + 1700 = 3244.
Do you really think you obtained an TDEE of 3244 daily for that week, to receive a deficit of 1700, to cause that weight loss to be only fat?
No, so water weight too.
Which really means, invalid info to get anything from at this point.
Your TDEE is under-reported since you are not logging your lifting time, and that's a decent amount of time. Because the Fitbit is sure underestimating the calorie burn then.
Go back in MFP on lifting days and log your time as Strength Training - it's low compared to cardio, but that is very true.
Now see what your TDEE is for some normal weeks after MFP syncs with Fitbit.
Might also think about that cardio, if you can make sure that intense interval sessions are not using the same muscles trying to repair from prior day, or that you'll be using the next day.
Exercise if done right tears the body down.
It's the rest for recovery and repair that builds it back up, stronger if diet allows.
Do you really have rest for whatever muscles are being used, because while in a diet your recovery is impaired anyway?
1 - yes, you likely need a reset eating that low. Imagine the strength gains you could have gotten eating at a reasonable deficit, than the extreme you've been at. Slow is good.
2 - Omron is more of an estimate than you know since it only looks at hand to hand, rest of the body isn't included, it's assuming based on your stats and that minor measurement. Measurement method can be upwards of 5% accurate, handheld 10%. I'd average the 2.
3 - You aren't being honest with yourself.
How many hours a week of exercise is Lightly Active? How many hours a week do you exercise?
And why are you picking a level from 5 rough estimates anyway when you have a Fitbit that except for the lifting will be better estimate? So it's over 2100 easy it sounds like. Get that lifting corrected in some past weeks and see.
You can finally confirm that level after eating there 2 weeks.
Eat 250 more than that for 2 more weeks. You should gain 1 lb slowly the whole time. And with lifting, won't even be fat. If that was truly TDEE.
If you gain more or faster, it is water weight, and that was not TDEE prior. New level may be, test again.
4 - Soreness can go away eventually from lifting, even properly. But also your workout routine I'm sure is preventing you from getting as good a workout as it could be.
If you go in to leg lifting day after doing hard intervals the day before with legs - you will have tired muscles, you will not be able to lift as heavy as fresh muscles could lift with, and therefore you are not putting a heavy load on the muscles, you are putting an endurance load on them. Purely stress at that point - not good stress either in a diet. Response to that is some strength increase perhaps, but mainly stress because you interrupted the repair process putting another load on the muscles.
I bet you could get sore, if you skipped the HIIT and did the lifting, you'd lift more and feel the damage done.
Just walk, or do the gentle cardio the day between lifting - do the intervals after lifting, before repair process has started. Since intervals is pushing as hard as you can, who cares if you can't push that hard after a proper lifting routine.
Also, since you have BF% estimate, you should be using Katch BMR to start of rough TDEE estimate, just in case you are very different than other BMR estimate. Even Fitbit won't know about that change.
Spreadsheet on my profile page can help with those figures, and allow tracking progress, and get you better TDEE estimate along with Fitbit.
I think your routine though could be improved to get best results from lifting. Right now that interval style isn't going to get the same response to your body as true HIIT would, but it will improve lactate threshold, and VO2, so if your goals include endurance cardio, then they are useful.
If your goals do not right now, time could be better spent.0 -
Heybales -- Thank you so much!! Very eye opening. I have been reluctant to trust my fitbit for calorie burns, but I really am in a good position to do so because what is the worst that can happen. I also feel really stupid for spending so much time with different calculators when I have more personal information literally on my hip. It is surprisingly hard to consider, but it might be time to focus solely on body fat percentages.
1. & 3. I reran the numbers including time for strength training, and over the last 19 days, my average calorie burn is 2245 and my deficit is way too high -- even adjusting for HRM overestimating burns and possible errors in calculating calorie intake. The Katch BMR calculator puts my BMR at 1231 and using the Scooby TDEE calculator puts my maintenance TDEE calories at between 1908(3-5 hours of moderate) and 2124 (5-6 hours of strenuous). I am going to be out of the country at a pretty high stress competition for the next two weeks, so that might yield some unreliable numbers. When I return, I will jump in and eat at 2245 for a month, trust the process and see what happens.
2. I love the idea of averaging the two body fat measurements. I am also considering getting a DXA scan since there are no bod pods nearby. Just curious, is it worth it to also do the VO2 test? Does the Omron measurement fluctuate as often as the regular scale? If so, how often should I use it?
4. I will experiment with adding more recovery time to get both the interval/endurance benefits and the strength training benefits. I actually woke up very sore today. Go figure.
I cannot thank you enough -- I think I have been spinning around in circles, and now I see an actual direction to go and an actual plan. Such a relief!0 -
What a great post. I'm excited to follow your progress!0
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Thank you, Jbharwood! Love your profile pic!0
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1 - to see how much you can trust the Fitbit with you manually logging strength training.
Go to your sleep time calorie burn per 5 min, should be constant number during sleep and any non-moving time (which isn't true, auto-under-estimate there for daily burn). Like mine is 6.1 / 5 x 1440 = BMR they are using.
How close is their BMR to the Katch BMR?
If very close, forget selecting your own level, and use the adjusted-for-lifting Fitbit estimate.
2 - VO2max test for training numbers? Depends on if that is your focus, cardio training.
I'm betting you mean RMR test though. Not really. Because what if it reads low compared to someone else your age, weight, height? It may be correct for your BF% And if it is low, you shouldn't diet to it, or you just risk making it lower.
More useful is the BF%, then eat to math based on that, and if RMR is low, that should help it come up.
Consumer Reports did tests on BF scales years ago and found some were consisent even if off by upwards of 10%, so you could trust the direction they gave you. But much depends on your hydration level and having the body in same conditions. They found some scales were decently accurate, say within 5% each time, but terribly inconsistent, so stat would bounce around in that range, making it difficult to know if you were going up or down. And same maker, different model differences, so hard to say. I'd test it 3 times in a row to see if consistent.
I'd always use it with a couple of measurement methods, averaged in. Spreadsheet does that.
I'd also get that average on the day of the test - then you can figure out the correct factor, so when inches go down, you can apply it, and get best estimate of BF% later.
4 - You can workout 6 days a week, but intense stuff requires recovery level workouts, or totally different muscles. Would you do heavy squats daily? Of course not. But good hard running intervals is a lifting life response on the legs (hard anaerobic push, rest, repeat - sound like lifting?) and so would you do them day after day? No. Same for leg lifting, intervals, leg lifting, ect. No recovery for the legs, going into the next day's workout not recovered and tired muscles, making that workout pretty worthless besides killing the repair on prior workout.
What is your workout goal? It's very difficult to focus on multiple things, unless you know you won't get max benefit from either.
Endurance cardio for sport or events, how far?
Lifting for health and body recomp?
Intervals for what reason?0 -
Heybales - thank you again!
1. If I am reading the log correctly, it is giving me 4.1 for 5 minutes during the time I am sleeping. 4.1/5 x 1440 = 1180. My Katch BMR is 1229. Seems close enough to at least start out trusting the fitbit numbers. When I work up to eating at TDEE and then 250 above, I will experiment every two weeks.
2. I did mean VO2 test, but with your more thorough explanation about what it is for, I don't think I need it. I think I will just do the BF test and dive into your spreadsheet.
3. I would say my workout goal is body recomp, which means making the most of those lifting sessions. I am pretty happy with my cardio endurance -- I don't have any problems with my tennis game or in any other areas of my life. I did notice that after lifting heavier yesterday (finally got my heavier adjustable dumbells!) that I couldn't do the interval training today -- my legs were too tired. Does this basic schedule make sense?
M,W,F - lifting
T - tennis
Th - moderate to low intensity cardio (biking, elliptical)
Sa - tennis
Su - moderate to low intensity cardio (or rest)
Again, thanks!!!0 -
1 - So actually, Fitbit is underestimating your BMR compared to Katch, but only 50 calories so as you say, close enough for now. As BF% is known, that may change the amount there.
2 - Another good way to come up with your HR zones if that interested (and if you have HRM, might as well have decent estimate), is HR Reserves, using your resting HR, another great indicator of fitness level, along with a HRmax figure - which you could test on your own if you think healthy enough for puke test, but at least estimate. resting HR is taken couple mornings in a row before getting up, but after settling down after stupid alarm scares you to death.
The referred to fat-burning zone here is really the Active Recovery zone as it's been known longer, which is good for day after lifting, should add no additional stress to muscles trying to repair. Some feel it's so slow, they'd rather just walk. But with bike or machine, just dial back tension.
http://www.calculatenow.biz/sport/heart.php?
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1061893-testing-heart-rate-max-vo2-max-for-hrm-settings
3 - Great example, glad you didn't think it would be useful to push through and attempt a hard workout anyway.
Schedule looks very realistic, though I'd encourage 1 day off with only walking, as long as it's not 4 hrs with hills and 5 mph somehow. Looks like Sun. Get out on trails if possible to unstress mind.
Even with reasonable deficit, recovery is impaired, might as well get what you can so Mon lifting is strong as possible. Walking will be good warmup, blood flow.0 -
I really really hate puking, so I think I will hold off the HRmax test. : ) Seems like it would be really useful when progress stops, or when looking for small refinements in fitness, but I don't think I am there yet. I will dial back the tension on recovery days. After just one day of doing that, I saw a big difference in the amount of legwork I was able to do in my lifting session today. Thinking abut trying to make Monday lifting as strong as possible will be good motivation to take it easier on Sundays.
It is going to be a big mental adjustment to see smaller calorie adjustments in my food diary. And it is going to be really weird to see that I am eating over my MFP net on those days (MFP still set to 1200) as I work up to finding my true maintenance level. My new mantra -- trust the process.
Thank you so much for all of your help!0 -
Hi there. I do not have much input because I just started following EM2WL about 2 weeks ago. Like you I was on WW and not having any luck. I had done ww 7 years ago and lost a lot of weight and kept it off until I got pregnant. Then after the birth of my daughter I lost 13lbs and stalled out. I ended up quitting.. only to rejoin Jan 2013. Lost another 13lbs stalled out. Never having a loss of more than 1lb at any given week. First week following EM2WL I gained 4lbs.. this past week I was down 2.6. I feel great!!!
I still have a long way to go.
Anyway I just wanted to share.. oh and on WW i was eating between 950-1100 calories a day. Now I eat around 1700!!!!0 -
Hi jfus14!
Nice to hear from someone who had a similar eating experience on WW. I never hit a plateau (this time), but I looked at my low intake numbers and I just knew it couldn't be right. I knew that while it was possible I could live that way, I didn't want to live that way.
I am impressed that you didn't run away after that first week. I think a lot of people do. One mental game I play with myself is that I no longer say "I gained" when I know I haven't eaten anywhere near above my TDEE. If I jump on the scale and tell myself, hmm, the scale went up, must be retaining fluid, then I fell so much better than if I say, "ugh, I gained a pound.". I know it is silly, but it makes me feel better.
I completely agree about feeling great. It is also so much more fun to plan my days around more calories. I never thought I would say this, but the best part is actually waking up hungry. Makes me feel like my metabolism is all fired up.
Can't wait to hear more about your progress!
P.S. Cute pup!0
