The only dairy I'm doing is hard cheese and then only about 2 oz./day. My chief source of pure fats are grass fed butter, olive oil, coconut oil, and bacon grease. Once I started using these items with every food I prepare I found that it's very easy to get to 75% of my calories from fat. Keeping protein in check can be difficult, but choose the fattier cuts of meat (i.e. 75/25 ground beef, ribeye) and wild fish (salmon, sardines, mackerel). My "go to" nuts are macadamias, brazil, pecans, and almonds (but I don't go "nuts" on the nuts).

Another "trick" I use is bone broth. I make the bone broth and then refrigerate it. Once cold, the fat solidifies as a top layer. This makes it really easy to add as much fat to a mug of broth as you may need to get your macros where you want them. Just weigh the fat with a digital scale. I have also stolen the emulsification trick from bulletproof coffee by adding butter to my bone broth and blending it in a bullet blender. This creates a wonderful frothy mug of buttery bone broth - really yummy, but I've found that in the hot Summer months it's not always a great pick.

I drink heavy cream shakes or latte.

This! I purchased a very low carb (2 grams) whey protein powder and make a heavy whipping cream shake. I have found that if you mix one scoop with 4 ounces of water and then add the pint of HWC, there is no clumping. Without the little bit of water you make Whipped Cream that you have to eat with a spoon just from mixing in a blender bottle. Watch your calories though! Consuming this entire shake is worth 1740 calories!

I drink heavy cream shakes or latte.

This! I purchased a very low carb (2 grams) whey protein powder and make a heavy whipping cream shake. I have found that if you mix one scoop with 4 ounces of water and then add the pint of HWC, there is no clumping. Without the little bit of water you make Whipped Cream that you have to eat with a spoon just from mixing in a blender bottle. Watch your calories though! Consuming this entire shake is worth 1740 calories!

Just watch out on the dairy. It's been found to be insulogenic beyond what the net carbs would otherwise seem to indicate. I've found for myself that it kicks off major hunger cravings a couple hours after consuming it. I used to be really big on the cream cheese and heavy cream. I cut that stuff out and found following a keto WOE so much easier. Sticking to only butter and hard (well aged) cheeses seems to be fine for me.

I drink heavy cream shakes or latte.

This! I purchased a very low carb (2 grams) whey protein powder and make a heavy whipping cream shake. I have found that if you mix one scoop with 4 ounces of water and then add the pint of HWC, there is no clumping. Without the little bit of water you make Whipped Cream that you have to eat with a spoon just from mixing in a blender bottle. Watch your calories though! Consuming this entire shake is worth 1740 calories!

When I am travelling , I get around 1500-1800 cals from heavy cream per day. I even have the venti heavy cream latte which is only 2000 cals.

I drink heavy cream shakes or latte.

This! I purchased a very low carb (2 grams) whey protein powder and make a heavy whipping cream shake. I have found that if you mix one scoop with 4 ounces of water and then add the pint of HWC, there is no clumping. Without the little bit of water you make Whipped Cream that you have to eat with a spoon just from mixing in a blender bottle. Watch your calories though! Consuming this entire shake is worth 1740 calories!

Just watch out on the dairy. It's been found to be insulogenic beyond what the net carbs would otherwise seem to indicate. I've found for myself that it kicks off major hunger cravings a couple hours after consuming it. I used to be really big on the cream cheese and heavy cream. I cut that stuff out and found following a keto WOE so much easier. Sticking to only butter and hard (well aged) cheeses seems to be fine for me.

Did you measure your blood glucose levels? Heavy cream is pure fat with hardly any carbs. People stop losing for other reasons and think it's the cream and cheese ,

With dairy, it's not the just carbs, but the protein. Casein has a uniquely high insulinogenic effect compared to other proteins. So protein-heavy cheeses could stall loss for that reason, though cream and fat-dominant dairy shouldn't.

Also, it's worth noting that insulin levels aren't inextricably tied to glucose levels. It's entirely possible to have any level of blood glucose and still have high levels of insulin.

I drink heavy cream shakes or latte.

This! I purchased a very low carb (2 grams) whey protein powder and make a heavy whipping cream shake. I have found that if you mix one scoop with 4 ounces of water and then add the pint of HWC, there is no clumping. Without the little bit of water you make Whipped Cream that you have to eat with a spoon just from mixing in a blender bottle. Watch your calories though! Consuming this entire shake is worth 1740 calories!

Just watch out on the dairy. It's been found to be insulogenic beyond what the net carbs would otherwise seem to indicate. I've found for myself that it kicks off major hunger cravings a couple hours after consuming it. I used to be really big on the cream cheese and heavy cream. I cut that stuff out and found following a keto WOE so much easier. Sticking to only butter and hard (well aged) cheeses seems to be fine for me.

Did you measure your blood glucose levels? Heavy cream is pure fat with hardly any carbs. People stop losing for other reasons and think it's the cream and cheese ,

With dairy, it's not the just carbs, but the protein. Casein has a uniquely high insulinogenic effect compared to other proteins. So protein-heavy cheeses could stall loss for that reason, though cream and fat-dominant dairy shouldn't.

Also, it's worth noting that insulin levels aren't inextricably tied to glucose levels. It's entirely possible to have any level of blood glucose and still have high levels of insulin.

Wait heavy cream has protein. Protein is insulogenic but no where near even low glycemic carbs like greens. There are lot more things to worry about before coming to heavy cream.

A person can have only so many eggs, bacon (not really!), cheeseburgers, chicken wings and thighs, and liverwurst (my favorite). Some cheeses has more carbs than you might think, so I cut that down. I am not able to eat a steak a day either. So what do people eat. I'm getting tired of cold cut and cheese roll ups.

I used the calculator for 5'9" 280lbs man. My target Protein is 82g, target fat is 136g and carbs are 20g for 1630 calories a day. This is supposed to help me lose 2lbs a week (just by calorie count, not taking into account ketosis). I can hit the calorie number, usually below, but can't consistently stay within the nutrient ratio of 5/20/75.

Eating more fatty items, when not hungry, just to drive the ratio in the right direction seems counterproductive.

What do you guys think?

How are you getting that number for protein? I'm also 5'9", though 240lb, and female, and 80g is the rock bottom amount of protein the Keto Calculator says I should be getting, and the 1g/lb of LBM calculation puts me at about 130g of protein at even the highest reasonable estimate of body fat percentage. You should be able to handle quite a bit more than 82g of protein.

That said, I second the "fatty drinks" notion. I've been partial to a whipping cream-heavy iced mocha as of late (not nearly as heavy on the cream as some of the responders here, though; I can't stomach that much cream at once), though Bulletproof Coffee is a good option, too. The coconut oil is great for aiding ketosis from what I've heard.

It really is a lot about adding fats to things -- avocado to a sandwich/wrap or salad, fatty cheese and nuts/seeds to salads, being liberal with the butter/coconut oil/bacon grease when frying/sauteeing things, etc.

Also, don't just go with the usual livestock options of beef, chicken, and pork. Branch out. Bison is phenomenal, and not really as lean as people say (seriously, make a meatloaf from ground bison and watch the meatloaf swim in the fat). Duck, venison, elk, etc. are all good options, too, and even if the cuts are similar, the taste and texture aren't. (To be fair, venison and wild game tend to be rather lean, but that's what butter and coconut oil are good for). And don't forget to go after the parts that people don't normally go after, like marrow.

1gm/ lb of LBM is biggest myth, it's 1g per kg, heck, Schwarzenegger swears by 1gm /LB protein for serious body builders not the normal guy on the street. Protein supplement companies have done a great job in brain washing that protein requirement. I had no problem gaining muscle at 80-100g of protein per day. I am a guy who does high intensity lifts. Body can produce it's own protein any where between 100-150 gm pet day. I recently bumped my protein to 150 g or more because I do two sessions a day.

I'm not going to get into a debate on the "proper" amount of protein needed on a per pound or per kilo basis, because that's a discussion unto itself. My point was

1) The keto calculator ( http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com/ ) provides minimum and maximum amounts that it recommends, which is .6g/lb or 1.3g/kg of lean body mass minimum and 1g/lb or 2.2g/kg maximum.

2.) I'm 40lbs lighter, with probably still a higher amount of body fat, and female (which means that I very likely have less lean mass by the sole virtue of gender differences). Therefore, even if you go by the theory that the low end of those two numbers are sufficient, his goal number should still be higher, because mine is that number, even though I very likely have less lean mass than him.

That's why I asked where he was getting that number, because, by using the same lean mass-based calculations, his range should be higher than mine. So, either he's using a different calculation (which is entirely possible), or he's not getting enough protein for the method he's using.

With dairy, it's not the just carbs, but the protein. Casein has a uniquely high insulinogenic effect compared to other proteins. So protein-heavy cheeses could stall loss for that reason, though cream and fat-dominant dairy shouldn't.

Also, it's worth noting that insulin levels aren't inextricably tied to glucose levels. It's entirely possible to have any level of blood glucose and still have high levels of insulin.

Wait heavy cream has protein. Protein is insulogenic but no where near even low glycemic carbs like greens. There are lot more things to worry about before coming to heavy cream.

I never said cream was something to worry about. I did say, however, that high-protein dairy can be something to consider when having trouble with weight loss. Cream is not high-protein. While it does have a little bit, it's very predominantly fat. It might make a difference if you're consuming it by the pint (at a whopping 10g of protein per pint), but otherwise, it's not really enough to cause concern for most people. In other words, I don't disagree with you that there are a lot of thing to worry about before the cream.

Protein, in general, isn't that insulinogenic compared to carbs, but the composition of dairy protein is different. The protein itself actually elicits an insulin response that's roughly double that of white bread (and I stand corrected, whey is the one with the more pronounced insulinogenic effect, not casein). So again, if you're consuming a lot of high-protein cheeses or other dairy, it is valid to consider minimizing your intake of them if you're having trouble losing weight and/or are prone to insulin issues.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/80/5/1246.full.pdf+html

Who is Ankeri and why do I care about it? You need to experiment starting with low end protein or medium. There is no way of knowing how much protein some one needs by putting in numbers on a web site. Start with 1g/kg which is generic guideline for people who are active and bump it to 1.3 if it doesn't work. Its a slippery slope with protein for most once you hit 120g or even 100g if a person is not active. If the protein can't be synthesized it will be converted to carbs. Regarding the cream or any food you exclude should be based on how an individual responds, not a theory. After all theory says fats are bad, its not very hard for some one to poke their finger for blood and see how they respond to diary, cream, cheese etc. I have seen people just blame food groups based on theory for lack of weight loss, they start to eliminate different food and get bored with very limited choice, eventually giving up on a diet. I usually do n=1,2 experiment to either add or eliminate a food. Human body is very adaptable and every one needs to try out things and see what works for them.

Show me an at-home tool to directly measure insulin without having to send blood samples off to a lab and I would gladly go with n=1, trust me. As a woman with PCOS that includes elevated fasting insulin with normal blood glucose levels, I honestly would love nothing more than to have a way to monitor my insulin in the same way that one can measure blood glucose, because unfortunately, the two are not the same, and measuring glucose is, at best, a proxy measurement for insulin.

"Theory" doesn't say fats are bad, clueless journalists and politicians do. The scientific studies have repeatedly shown that fat (generally speaking) is neutral if not downright beneficial in numerous areas -- and have done so for the better part of the past century.

Those same scientific studies show that the protein composition in dairy raise insulin in an amount disproportionate to even to starchy carbohydrates, despite being low-GI. Now, unless/until I have a way to measure my own post-consumption insulin levels, I'm inclined to trust those studies and heed the information. If you don't want to, that's your prerogative. I'm just saying it's a valid thing to consider.

The same goes with "eliminating food groups." Aside from the fact that I didn't suggest eliminating food groups, but rather minimizing intake of rather specific foods (that, from the sound of it, wouldn't fit all that much into a "lower" protein diet, anyway). I find it rather ironic that someone in a keto forum is being critical of the suggestion to minimize the intake of certain foods, given that that's exactly what everyone who follows keto does. Additionally, as someone who doesn't consume much in the way of dairy in general -- and even less so the high-protein items -- I can assure you that I am not suffering from a lack of variety. And this is coming from someone who could practically live off of cottage cheese, milk, and yogurt, so it's not like I just don't like dairy.

Yes, my wondering where he got his protein number is based in part by "putting in numbers on a web site," though frankly, that's no different than going by the generic guideline you provided.

Here, I'll go by your generic guideline of 1g/kg of lean body mass:

My measurements say I have about 153lb of lean body mass. That equates to 68g at 1g/kg.
Based on the information the OP gave, his lean mass is estimated at 167lb (accuracy may be rather low, I don't have any other information than height and weight), which would equate to 80g of protein.

Okay, this suggests that he used guidelines similar to yours, but did he, really? We don't know this yet, because he hasn't responded to my question of where he came up with that number (just like he hasn't indicated whether or not he's active, or what kind of activity he does). I was simply probing for more information and explaining my rationale for asking.

Additionally, from what I've seen, the "myth" is 1g/lb of total body weight, not lean mass (which makes a huge difference when a given person is overweight), and that that amount (~1g/lb LBM) is beneficial in retaining lean mass while attempting to lose weight through calorie restriction, though not so much is required when attempting to bulk.

Here's the article that I've seen cited when talking about this "myth" -- http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/ , which has references to my statement above that the extra protein is beneficial in a weight loss scenario. If you have others, particularly ones that state that 1g/kg of lean body mass is the best way to go, then I would certainly be interested in them.

Also, for what it's worth, I do find the 1g/lb of LBM to be on the high side. My general recommendation to others is to calculate it with that, but treat it as the upper bound and adjust downward based on their activity type and level. I personally have my protein set in MFP at about 110g (20% of calories), which has worked fairly well for me, though I'm not afraid to go higher should I feel the need.

125 g of protein seems over kill, bump up the minimum protein from USDA to 0.45-0.5g / LBM, or 1g of protein / Kg you will be fine. You need to start from there and bump it up if needed. Focus on what your goals are , fat burning, muscle mass or bulking. If you ignore the internet and talk to experts who are in to body building, or pro coaches who train athletes most of them laugh at normal guys consuming 1gm of protein per LBM. I personally had my best fat burning when I kept protein around 80 g per day and I have lot of LBM.

May be my approach is very different than yours, I ignore most of the bro science on the internet. I follow few sources (Dr's who who do research on the low carbs, experiment or work class athletes and body builders who practice what they preach. There is never a perfect test but I will take a n=1 experiment which is close enough than some random guy writing a book or blog on the internet with out considering my genetics or body. All I care is the results and what best way to get them than talk to people who are at top of their game and do stuff than blog about.

I think it's pretty evident we have different approaches, though I'm not inclined to follow bro science, either. The calculator I mentioned cites several sources for rationale behind every number it generates. Additionally, I can pull up at least one study that goes into depth about protein needs for LBM retention in weight loss, if you want. I prefer to not to do just blogs, unless they're well-researched (and in those cases, it just makes more sense to post the blog instead of reposting all the links they provide).

It seems to me that the bigger difference in our opinion stems from the fact that our respective sources have chosen two different paths when it comes to amount of protein. Where yours trend toward lower amounts, mine have trended toward somewhat higher amounts, though it's interesting to note that both groups have been successful at weight loss -- presumably with little, if any, lean mass loss -- and maintaining ketosis (for example, Dr. Peter Attia, a long-time athletic keto-er, consumed about 1.5g/kg or 120g of protein in the depth of his ketosis after reducing from a pre-keto high of 3g/kg -- http://eatingacademy.com/how-i-lost-weight )

I also think we largely agree on most of the same things, but the big difference is our approach to finding the right amount of protein. Where you start low and go up, I start higher and go down, though it does seem that we generally end up not far off from each other (around 100g, give or take 10-20g).

And I wasn't be facetious before, either, when I mentioned that if you have references for the 1g/kg of LBM, I would be interested in reading about them. The same goes for any other research/information sources you have on protein needs, keto, or both.

I re-entered my original numbers (shown below). The protein value just seemed too high to remain in ketosis. When I joined this page (MFP) I answered a few questions regarding goals and it came up with 82g. I just entered my weightloss (268 - down 7) and when I updated my goals it spit out lower calorie total 1580 and only 79g of protein. It does not seem to match up with the keto calc site, but I went with it as I was inclined to think a lower number was better anyway.

I'd disagree that lower always equals better, and yes, the Keto Calculator doesn't line up, because 20% deficit is about 1lb/week. Do keep in mind that while you can start with a 2lb/week deficit, the closer you get to goal weight, the harder that will be to maintain. Personally, I err on the side of more food and would go for a 1lb/week loss or the 20% deficit that Keto Calculator suggests). The nice thing about the keto lifestyle is that starvation isn't required to lose weight.

But yeah, if you need/want to get more fats in, then pick fatty meats over lean (bacon! ribeye steak!), and cook stuff in butter/ghee/coconut oil. That can add a bunch of fat and help tip the balance, without you feeling like you're stuffing yourself. Using olive or avocado oil on salads or to dip veggies in is another option, too. It's just a matter of getting creative. (Unfortunately, without seeing your diary, I can't really give you more than generic advice on that front.)