Time lag in coming out of ketosis
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peabean26
Posts: 78 Member
Hi,
I am relatively new to keto and can't seem to get the hang of keeping myself in ketosis. My general signs for being in ketosis are constant thirst and urination. I also hold a steady weight (or go down) when I'm in, but as soon as I come out I'm heavier (~2lbs) during my morning weigh in.
I read some articles that discussed there being a 'time lag' for your body with ketosis. That you come out of ketosis 4-5 days after eating carbs. I'm curious about this, since I'm struggling to figure out what are my triggers.
For instance, I had a drink (bourbon on the rocks) on friday night. I seemed to stay in ketosis after the drink, into the following days. Until today, when I woke up and realized I'm not in ketosis.
I can't figure out what I ate yesterday that would've pushed me out. The only thing I can think of is 'hidden sugar' in the jerk sauce that was on my lunch salad (restaurant made). Otherwise my carbs were fine for yesterday.
So, any insight into this type of issue would be much appreciated!
I am relatively new to keto and can't seem to get the hang of keeping myself in ketosis. My general signs for being in ketosis are constant thirst and urination. I also hold a steady weight (or go down) when I'm in, but as soon as I come out I'm heavier (~2lbs) during my morning weigh in.
I read some articles that discussed there being a 'time lag' for your body with ketosis. That you come out of ketosis 4-5 days after eating carbs. I'm curious about this, since I'm struggling to figure out what are my triggers.
For instance, I had a drink (bourbon on the rocks) on friday night. I seemed to stay in ketosis after the drink, into the following days. Until today, when I woke up and realized I'm not in ketosis.
I can't figure out what I ate yesterday that would've pushed me out. The only thing I can think of is 'hidden sugar' in the jerk sauce that was on my lunch salad (restaurant made). Otherwise my carbs were fine for yesterday.
So, any insight into this type of issue would be much appreciated!
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Replies
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Where is your protein at? Too much protein can also knock you out of ketosis.
Also, this is just me, but I try to balance my carbs in my meal rather than looking at the overall day. I'm not 100% sure but I think if I have 30g of carbs in one sitting rather than spread through out the day, that's a lot of carbs at one time for my body. This could be completely false thinking.
ETA: I should have looked at your diary before opening my mouth. I don't *think* it was my protein assumption and I don't think its having your carbs in one shot. Hopefully others can help out a bit more.
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Hidden carbs are definitely a killer!! It's tough when you eat out, because even when you ask the waitstaff if there's sugar added to a sauce, etc, it's really unlikely that the actually know. This gets me all the time with dressings especially.
Do you use the keto stix? I know that my appetite and cravings are greatly decreased (though I have yet had the "forget" to eat experience that many talk of), I get acetone breath and I too make hourly (sometimes 2x an hour) bathroom visits. But even so, there are days when I think I'm in ketosis, but the stix don't register anything and if I scrutinize my diary, I can usually see where I got off track. Then it's back at it with the very low carb intake and a day or two of keto flu. For the first month at least, I was pushing myself out of ketosis every weekend. This past weekend was the first weekend that I got through without an indulgence that pushed me out. It's hard work, but I feel it's worth it.
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PB:Hi,
I am relatively new to keto and can't seem to get the hang of keeping myself in ketosis. My general signs for being in ketosis are constant thirst and urination. I also hold a steady weight (or go down) when I'm in, but as soon as I come out I'm heavier (~2lbs) during my morning weigh in.
I read some articles that discussed there being a 'time lag' for your body with ketosis. That you come out of ketosis 4-5 days after eating carbs. I'm curious about this, since I'm struggling to figure out what are my triggers.
For instance, I had a drink (bourbon on the rocks) on friday night. I seemed to stay in ketosis after the drink, into the following days. Until today, when I woke up and realized I'm not in ketosis.
I can't figure out what I ate yesterday that would've pushed me out. The only thing I can think of is 'hidden sugar' in the jerk sauce that was on my lunch salad (restaurant made). Otherwise my carbs were fine for yesterday.
So, any insight into this type of issue would be much appreciated!
I'm not aware of any actual clinical studies that might provide insight to your question of the "time lag" (doesn't mean they don't exist though and others may know).
From what I've seen though (anecdotal and personal experience) it's highly unlikely that one bourbon (sans any "mixers") would be the culprit. It's cals (and alcohol of course) but that's pretty much it.
The "hidden sugars/carbs" though, would be high on my list of "suspects".
But, in any case, day to day weight fluctuations of 4-5 pounds are very typical, indeed "normal", and likely have absolutely NOTHING to do with what you ate yesterday or the day before OR whether or not you are "in" ketosis.
What I do know though is that unless you are actually measuring blood ketones (utilizing blood or breath testers) all the rest of those "general signs for being in ketosis" are pretty much useless. You may "think" you're adapted (and you may actually be) but it's virtually impossible to know for sure without testing.
The "styx" are almost totally useless for measuring anything beyond the initial production of ketone bodies in the first days of reduced carb intake on the road to adaptation. In fact, since they measure only that excreted in the urine (not the blood content) most will find that once nutritional ketosis has been achieved the styx will show NO change at all.
Blood meters are arguably the "best" tool since they provide an actual, digital, ketone count but they are expensive to use and many find the "sticking" process objectionable. They also have the added benefit (most models) of being able to measure blood sugar levels (by changing "strips") which, even for those not T1 or T2D's, is another valuable piece of data to evaluate one's state of ketosis.
Recent advancements in the technology for breath analyzers have produced equipment that is much more reasonably priced ($100 - 125usd) with NO ongoing costs for the "strips". They produce results that are not quite as "exact" as the blood meters and some argue that they haven't been around long enough for us to "know" for sure - but recent testing has produced results that would support the contention that they are quite accurate.
For these reasons, it's my suggestion for the tester of choice, although I have no doubt that the next generation will be even better (and possibly even less expensive).
While the $125 might be beyond the means of some, I'd offer the argument my cardio doc made to me when he said "...it's a third of what many folks spend on "conventional - diet food in a box delivered to your door spend EVERY month".
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What method are you using to say whether or not you are in ketosis? I have noticed delay with ketostix, which is why I don't put much stock in them.
Your diary looks good carb wise. Alcohol and artificial sweeteners may be a culprit for you (making an assumption because I can't see the recipes for the cinnamon rolls and other sweets in your diary). They are for some folks insulin spikers, but not for others.
If you check your blood sugar, you would be able to tell by testing it regularly after having alcohol or A.S. in your day.0 -
Oh, and double check all your entries to make sure you aren't eating more carbs than you think. It looked accurate to me, but I didn't check each item. A lot of ketoers, I've noticed, use the label from the package which is often rounded down to 0 carbs, when the item actually has <1 carb. When you eat 3 of that item, you end up with 1.5 carbs possibly vs. 0 carbs. Eggs and cheese are the biggest culprit I see here. Also, MFP rounds everything, and that can be a contributing source to a bit of inaccuracy as well.
Have you noticed if you have to get your net carbs super low to go into ketosis? Some folks can go in at 50 net carbs. Others can't get in until under 20 net carbs.
Just food for thought.0 -
Hi,
I read some articles that discussed there being a 'time lag' for your body with ketosis. That you come out of ketosis 4-5 days after eating carbs. I'm curious about this, since I'm struggling to figure out what are my triggers.
About the "time lag":
In my head, and not based on ANY scientific research, I think this is why the ketostix can be so inaccurate. People eat a slice of cake, go home and measure with a stix and "oh look, i'm still in ketosis" when actually those may be just leftover ketones floating around in your body that you are still eliminating even if you're no longer in ketosis. Because I imagine it's not like a faucet that you just open and close, but more like a constant stream. Then, ideally you would go back to your low-carbing, back into ketosis, sometimes not even experience the flu (I know I never did, but my sugar/carb levels were already low to begin with). And then, since your stix registered ketone bodies in your urine from the "leftovers" and the "post cake ones" all along, then people think it's ok to add a slice of cake to their diet and just go in and out of ketosis on a regular basis, never really becoming keto-adapted. But, this is just what makes sense in my head, it's not based on fact, I haven't researched this.0 -
deansdad101 wrote: »
The "hidden sugars/carbs" though, would be high on my list of "suspects".
But, in any case, day to day weight fluctuations of 4-5 pounds are very typical, indeed "normal", and likely have absolutely NOTHING to do with what you ate yesterday or the day before OR whether or not you are "in" ketosis.
What I do know though is that unless you are actually measuring blood ketones (utilizing blood or breath testers) all the rest of those "general signs for being in ketosis" are pretty much useless. You may "think" you're adapted (and you may actually be) but it's virtually impossible to know for sure without testing.
The "styx" are almost totally useless for measuring anything beyond the initial production of ketone bodies in the first days of reduced carb intake on the road to adaptation. In fact, since they measure only that excreted in the urine (not the blood content) most will find that once nutritional ketosis has been achieved the styx will show NO change at all.
Blood meters are arguably the "best" tool since they provide an actual, digital, ketone count but they are expensive to use and many find the "sticking" process objectionable. They also have the added benefit (most models) of being able to measure blood sugar levels (by changing "strips") which, even for those not T1 or T2D's, is another valuable piece of data to evaluate one's state of ketosis.
Recent advancements in the technology for breath analyzers have produced equipment that is much more reasonably priced ($100 - 125usd) with NO ongoing costs for the "strips". They produce results that are not quite as "exact" as the blood meters and some argue that they haven't been around long enough for us to "know" for sure - but recent testing has produced results that would support the contention that they are quite accurate.
For these reasons, it's my suggestion for the tester of choice, although I have no doubt that the next generation will be even better (and possibly even less expensive).
While the $125 might be beyond the means of some, I'd offer the argument my cardio doc made to me when he said "...it's a third of what many folks spend on "conventional - diet food in a box delivered to your door spend EVERY month".
For me, keto has seemed to provide more stability in my weight than any other diet has. That is why I was surprised by the fluctuation. I don't really understand how long it takes to get to keto adaption. Weeks? months?
I have been considering getting the breath analyzer. My husband looked into it and (as an engineer) was very excited. He thinks he may be able to build one...we'll see, he often has many small projects going at once!
Perhaps I'll just put it on my Christmas list!
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sljohnson1207 wrote: »What method are you using to say whether or not you are in ketosis? I have noticed delay with ketostix, which is why I don't put much stock in them.
Your diary looks good carb wise. Alcohol and artificial sweeteners may be a culprit for you (making an assumption because I can't see the recipes for the cinnamon rolls and other sweets in your diary). They are for some folks insulin spikers, but not for others.
If you check your blood sugar, you would be able to tell by testing it regularly after having alcohol or A.S. in your day.
I have used the ketostix, but only a few times. I've heard tons of people say they don't trust them so I defer to this advice, since I'm so new to keto.
I don't drink much alcohol, typically 1 drink a week, my friday night guilty pleasure! As for the artificial sweeteners, I use Swerve. All the 'treats' you see in my diary are made with Swerve, which to my understanding does not spike your blood sugar. I don't have a blood sugar meter, so testing after eating these things isn't really possible unless I invest in a meter.
Do other people use swerve? Do you alot any carbs for swerve? I find it's typically called for in the recipes I find, such as those from mariamindbody.com or ibreatheimhungry.com, which is where I get most of my dessert recipes. If swerve is a problem, can you suggest a different sweetener?
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PB:deansdad101 wrote: »
<snipped>
For me, keto has seemed to provide more stability in my weight than any other diet has. That is why I was surprised by the fluctuation. I don't really understand how long it takes to get to keto adaption. Weeks? months?
I have been considering getting the breath analyzer. My husband looked into it and (as an engineer) was very excited. He thinks he may be able to build one...we'll see, he often has many small projects going at once!
Perhaps I'll just put it on my Christmas list!
"how long...." - Varies widely by individuals. Some "claim" to be "in keto" in days but usually base those claims on no empirical evidence beyond the subjective or a styx indication (which is basically useless).
- Others insist that they have "tried" for "months" and cannot achieve nutritional ketosis (NK) but admit to "going off the rails a couple times"
- It does vary widely but consensus of the "experts" appears to be something like anywhere between a few weeks or a couple months (with compliance and accurate testing).
Your husband might very well be able to "build one" in his basement workshop.
Someplace in the last week or so I saw a website where another geeky engineer type did exactly that and provided pretty detailed instructions and parts list.
If I remember correctly, total parts were less than half the retail price of the one from Sweeden so if one discounts their time involved it's not only possible but more economical.
Downsides might be that support for documenting the "numbers" it produces might be lacking. One of the biggest issues is how the results compare with the blood test (current "gold standard") which, unless you are willing to conduct your own n=1 study and compare results directly (and buy both a blood meter AND the parts for breath meter) you are pretty much at the mercy of others doing the research.
Sorry, but I didn't save the URL, checked history but it's wiped. If I trip across it again (and remember), I'll add it to this thread or perhaps someone else has it for you.
If not, a trip to the googlemachine might yield results.
For my money, it's worth the extra bucks to get the support from the company but to each their own.
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Evil Hormones
Stall delay or not, shark week or just our cycle in general can throw the ketosis thing way off.0 -
I think it took me 6 weeks to get adapted. The day I started the diet was the day I started reading Phinney & Volek's book. So the first weeks for me were just eating less carbs. But since I was using MFP I saw that over 50 grams @ day was too much. So every week I lowered my carb intake. When I got down around 25 carbs, I think I was adapted. I bought the Ketonix and every time I use it, it says I am in the "optimal" range. Also, when I water fast, that definitely makes sure you have "lo-carb" daysHi,
I am relatively new to keto and can't seem to get the hang of keeping myself in ketosis. My general signs for being in ketosis are constant thirst and urination. I also hold a steady weight (or go down) when I'm in, but as soon as I come out I'm heavier (~2lbs) during my morning weigh in.
<snip>
Otherwise my carbs were fine for yesterday.
So, any insight into this type of issue would be much appreciated!
. When I water fast, I use the Ketonix and it reads much higher.
This may be anecdotal, but at night when I sleep, I am much hotter than I used to be. I am having a hard time adjusting the right amount of covers. Right now I use two sheets, with a quilt over just my shoulder area. I swear I almost have a "fever" while sleeping.
If you ask how high my thermostat is set to, well, I am scared to say, as you probably wouldn't believe me. Oh what the heck, its set usually at 52 degrees
. Yes, that isn't a typo. I'm single and at work and out socially most of the time. I have an old poorly insulated house and if I set it to 68, my bill is over $300 @ month. So I just grin and bear it with a "hoodie" on when I'm in the house.
Dan the Man from Michigan
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This dialog makes me feel a little better as tomorrow will be the one week mark of my keto program. As far as calories; I am Net 2,722 under weekly goal/average 12% Carbs/64% Fat/24% Protein. I have only had one cheat which was Friday when I had about one cup of bread pudding with cherries/apples and half a glass of wine. Though I have eaten very low-carb the past two days (9%), I am completely out of ketosis based on the Ketostix. Do my carbs need to be lower to get back into Ketosis or does it take just a few days of eating right to balance? Am I eating more carbs in general than I should? I feel a little discouraged...0
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Do my carbs need to be lower to get back into Ketosis or does it take just a few days of eating right to balance? Am I eating more carbs in general than I should? I feel a little discouraged...
I can't see your diary, so I'm not sure if you are eating too many carbs. When I come out of ketosis, typically after drinking, I will do an egg fast for 2 days and that brings me back into ketosis. This will net me under 20g carbs per day, which is what I need to get into ketosis quickly.
The egg fast recipes are from ibreatheimhungry.com. My fast days and typically consist of an omelet for breakfast, crepes for lunch, egg fettuccine for dinner and caramel machiatto cheesecake bite for dessert. I can eat this for 2 days without a problem. I've even found that I can eat an avocado each day and add chicken or shrimp to the fettuccine and still get into ketosis.0 -
This dialog makes me feel a little better as tomorrow will be the one week mark of my keto program. As far as calories; I am Net 2,722 under weekly goal/average 12% Carbs/64% Fat/24% Protein. I have only had one cheat which was Friday when I had about one cup of bread pudding with cherries/apples and half a glass of wine. Though I have eaten very low-carb the past two days (9%), I am completely out of ketosis based on the Ketostix. Do my carbs need to be lower to get back into Ketosis or does it take just a few days of eating right to balance? Am I eating more carbs in general than I should? I feel a little discouraged...
One cup of bread pudding and some wine is enough to knock you out of ketosis, esp. if you have not been in that state very long. Go back to whatever carb level you were doing prior to that, and keep at it. It will take several days most likely to regain ketosis.
This is why most of us LCHFers don't cheat, or do it vary rarely. It's sometimes not worth it to go out, and then need to get back in. Weigh the pros/cons before you cheat. I did Saturday night. A planned cheat for my nephew's birthday party. I had a piece of cheesecake. I weighed the pros/cons and chose the cheesecake this time.
By the way, macros for different folks vary for achieving ketosis, but I believe the standard for definitely achieving it is 5%, or usually less than 20g NET carbs. Since your cals are pretty high, you probably can achieve with a higher amount of carbs.
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Peanbean26 - the egg fast sounds dreamy thank you. sljohnson1207; you have such a valid point about the pros/cons being weighed before one cheats...after staying committed on the plan for 5 days, cheating was definitely not worth it...(though the bread pudding was divine.) Did the cheesecake knock you out as well? 0
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Oooh, caramel machiatto cheesecake bite? Do share, please.0
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Peanbean26 - the egg fast sounds dreamy thank you. sljohnson1207; you have such a valid point about the pros/cons being weighed before one cheats...after staying committed on the plan for 5 days, cheating was definitely not worth it...(though the bread pudding was divine.) Did the cheesecake knock you out as well?
So far the cheesecake has not knocked me out of ketosis at all (according to ketostix, which we know can be inaccurate) based on twice per day readings. The color did go lighter for one reading, but that is not abnormal when I use them anyway.
I go by weekly average on calories and my macros. For the week that included the cheesecake, I still stayed under 1500 cals, and kept my carbs at 26 NET average for the week. Planned splurges once you are keto adapted are easier. I adjusted my intake that day to include less carbs on purpose because I knew the cheesecake was made with real sugar and Pepperidge Farm Chessman Cookie Crust (delicious, btw!), and was going to cost me 50+ carbs. I also can make adjustments to my macros and calories other days of the week surrounding a planned splurge.
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This is my new favorite recipe !Oooh, caramel machiatto cheesecake bite? Do share, please.
http://www.ibreatheimhungry.com/2014/08/egg-fast-bulletproof-cheesecake-caramel-frosting-low-carb.html0 -
^^^ This looks sooooo good. Thank you.0
