Best article/study/news to give my trainer?
hotsungirl
Posts: 107 Member
My trainer, a former competitive body builder who is 54, went into melt down today when I told him I was ketogenic. He said I can't continue to build muscle or train without carbs. Old school mind "you need good carbs!!!". I want to send him something. I love him as a trainer--don't want to change that.
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Adding this myself... What do you think? http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2012/04/exercise-on-low-carbohydrate-diet/0
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Is this trainer aware of your absolute goals?
If your goal is to build muscle without regard to losing body fat, he may be correct. You probably need carbs to train the way you will need to.
If your goal is to reduce bodyfat so you can see the muscles you have, I'd bet dollars to donuts he's really, really wrong.
I don't know yet from experience, but I will soon enough, whether or not you can build muscle on a LCHF diet. Once I make my goal weight, I will be switching to recomp. I will attempt to build a little more muscle, and still maintain or shed more bodyfat. I do plan to up my carbs, though, a little bit.
Maybe some other folks have had experience with this.0 -
If you are keto adapted I don't see the need for carbs. I hate HATE HATTTTEEE when people say you need carbs for energy. Not when keto adapted.
There is someone in one of these groups, maybe its the keto group, who does lifting, etc..."Leon" is the beginning part of the username who might have some good info for you. I can't remember his full username. Hopefully he will see this.0 -
sljohnson1207 wrote: »Is this trainer aware of your absolute goals?
If your goal is to build muscle without regard to losing body fat, he may be correct. You probably need carbs to train the way you will need to.
If your goal is to reduce bodyfat so you can see the muscles you have, I'd bet dollars to donuts he's really, really wrong.
I don't know yet from experience, but I will soon enough, whether or not you can build muscle on a LCHF diet. Once I make my goal weight, I will be switching to recomp. I will attempt to build a little more muscle, and still maintain or shed more bodyfat. I do plan to up my carbs, though, a little bit.
Maybe some other folks have had experience with this.
All about losing fat for me. I have been circuit training with him for 11 months.
That Ben Greenfield fitness link is interesting. If that isn't training full keto, I don't know what is...
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If you are keto adapted I don't see the need for carbs. I hate HATE HATTTTEEE when people say you need carbs for energy. Not when keto adapted.
There is someone in one of these groups, maybe its the keto group, who does lifting, etc..."Leon" is the beginning part of the username who might have some good info for you. I can't remember his full username. Hopefully he will see this.
Leonidas_meets_Spartacus0 -
I thought Leo changed his username???0
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sljohnson1207 wrote: »I thought Leo changed his username???
I wouldn't know. I'm not on his friend list.
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The first rule of keto is Don't Talk About Keto.
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Hots;hotsungirl wrote: »My trainer, a former competitive body builder who is 54, went into melt down today when I told him I was ketogenic. He said I can't continue to build muscle or train without carbs. Old school mind "you need good carbs!!!". I want to send him something. I love him as a trainer--don't want to change that.
Read
Phinney Volek Performance
Ben Greenfield was one of Volek's first "ultra marathoner" subjects and his is a story that P & V document and reference frequently in the literature and to which any number of researchers, authors, and speakers refer regularly.
But his is certainly not the only such example, nor is it unique. The (growing) list of elite athletes, world-wide, who have "come out" as LCHF Fat Adapters is a horse not likely to be put back into the barn. Even some of the "self-proclaimed" (IMO) fitness "experts" have had to modify their previous stances.
I'd suggest you read the above and then either find a new trainer, or go without (since by the end of the book you'll have a much better understanding of why "old school" isn't better in the "good old days" sense. P&V's other book (similar name but without the "performance" part) goes into much greater detail and more of the science if your interest is piqued to the point I'm guessing it might be.
I know you said you "..don't want to change that", so either just don't discuss it with him as someone else said, or listen politely to what he says and just ignore it and do what you know actually makes sense. It really isn't possible to "change the world" in all cases and in circumstances like this, probably not worth the effort to try.
It's a generalization to be sure, but from what I've seen the two most recalcitrant groups of "experts" (when it comes to NK/FA) are doctors and fitness "gurus". Of course there are exceptions but as much as you may like him, your current trainer doesn't sound like he's one.
Take a look at some of the recent work of Prof. Tim Noakes (ebooks/youtube vids) - an *avid* proponent of "carbs are king", up until he realized that they are not.
A dedicated, long term, sports nutrition "expert" (as well as athlete himself) who quite literally "wrote the book" on the need for "carbing up" in a previous lifetime - he is now *apologizing* to the fitness community, saying "I got it WRONG".
Yes, there are study results that show that there "can" be circumstances where short term elevations in carb levels "can" be beneficial for heavy duty resistance exercise/performance, unless you are in training for the "Ms World something or other" it probably doesn't apply to you (or 99.9% of the others reading this).
Apparently, your trainer didn't get the memo.0 -
It's funny that he said you couldn't continue to train...how I even started out low carbing 5 or 6 years ago was help from a friend who is a powerlifter.0
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Thats easy just keep it to yourself and lie if you have to. If your comfortable with him as a trainer keep him.0
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http://eatingacademy.com/my-personal-nutrition-journey
Specifically, parts 3 and 4, which relate to his lean body mass vs fat mass, and his athletic performance. Granted, he's not a lifter, per se, but he does do a lot of Crossfit and Strongman style training (or did around the time of those charts).
Or, how about from the king of bodybuilding himself, Arnold?
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/training_with_arnold.htm
http://www.allthingsgym.com/70s-bodybuilding-diet-plan/
Meat, eggs, cheese, a little fruit and vegetable thrown in for micros. High fat, moderate-high protein (1g/lb total body weight for athletes), low carb. Not officially keto due to the higher protein, but Arnold also wasn't looking to lose weight, either. That's the real old school lifter's diet.
Other random research and articles on the matter:
http://www.jissn.com/content/9/1/34
http://articles.elitefts.com/nutrition/ketogenic-bulking-and-the-strength-athlete-friends-or-foes/
http://blog.chaosandpain.com/70/ (Interview with a powerlifter dude, kind of bro-ish, but has some good info on what it's like to actually be a keto lifter)
In short, the strength "losses" that many lifters see when going keto isn't from muscle loss (or, if it is, it's the temporary loss some athletes see when they first switch, before fat adapted), but rather glycogen loss. The physiological changes are illustrated pretty well in Attia's posts, above. Basically, there's a window of time where the body still tries to use sugar to fuel the workload, but you aren't providing it with any. So, it burns the glycogen, then turns to gluconeogenesis to keep its stores up. After a couple months training while keto adapted, the body shifts to being less reliant on sugar and any catabolism that was happening stops (if it was happening to begin with), and the body's need for glycogen to fuel the power bursts diminishes as it uses other sources or becomes more efficient to need less overall.0 -
I sent my trainer an email late last night with two good links - Dr Attia and Greenfield. Whether he reads them or not is up to him. I also added that I feel very motivated, and what I'm doing isn't up for discussion. He wants my business. He knows I have tried a lot of diets over the years and have worked out hard with a group of men including my husband who is in amazing shape, with free weights and circuits without much success for the last eleven months. I sure am building muscle, and fitness, but whole point for me now is moving the fat and health.
My trainer would love to change what I eat, but he also regularly rambles on about how I should be eating small amounts of nuts -- I have an anaphylaxis peanut allergy ;-) So he doesn't truly know or remember what I eat. He eats all day long himself, and fine if it works for him, in his own small gym, but I have no interest in living around food like that. So there we go, ultimately I would never want him planning my diet anyhow -- I just want him to shut up about it and see how I do :-)
As I said, I love the small group I train with and I very much appreciate the physical knowledge my trainer has...I herniated L5/S1 last year and he has worked through my healing and safe training with me. If my back is not up to a dead lift or a seated leg press, he has a million other exercises in his head for me.
Thank you again, for all the links, fellow LCDs! Love you guys!!!!
Caro0 -
FYI - peanuts aren't nuts; they're legumes. You may or may not have a tree nut allergy. You should get tested at the allergist, so you know for sure.
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I'm no expert, and I'm interested in reading some of the above, as from what I have read it seems carbs are necessary for certain functions in muscle building. I'm not talking about the energy to fuel a workout, but rather the utility of insulin to carry protein into the muscle tissues post-workout.
Extrapolating from that, if you are eating low-carb, there is not the requisite insulin in the body to do this effectively enough for optimal muscle building, or else the body turns to converting protein to glucose to supply the necessary insulin, or both ? This isn't a conclusion, but rather a question, and I would love to read up a little more on it as I'm not sure how much of the higher carb diet for muscle building is necessary, or if perhaps its not simply being kept going by beliefs that don't hold up ?
The stuff on endurance running is different to the question at hand, as we're looking at the difference between necessary diet to build muscle versus necessary diet to fuel endurance workouts.
I know from seeing Cereal Killers recently, that the entire Australian cricket team had switched over to low carb, but (and with no great knowledge of Australian cricket), I would not imagine those sort of athletes would have the same sort of muscular demands say the Australian rules teams or Australian rugby teams would have. I'm open to correction here.
By the way, if anyone has any good links discussing the requirements of carbs for muscle building, I would be delighted to peruse them, as simply speaking personally, the need to optimise muscle growth would be one of the main reasons I can think of to up my carb intake. I will try have a read of the above that's been posted too
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iloseityes wrote: »I'm no expert, and I'm interested in reading some of the above, as from what I have read it seems carbs are necessary for certain functions in muscle building. I'm not talking about the energy to fuel a workout, but rather the utility of insulin to carry protein into the muscle tissues post-workout.
Extrapolating from that, if you are eating low-carb, there is not the requisite insulin in the body to do this effectively enough for optimal muscle building, or else the body turns to converting protein to glucose to supply the necessary insulin, or both ? This isn't a conclusion, but rather a question, and I would love to read up a little more on it as I'm not sure how much of the higher carb diet for muscle building is necessary, or if perhaps its not simply being kept going by beliefs that don't hold up ?
The stuff on endurance running is different to the question at hand, as we're looking at the difference between necessary diet to build muscle versus necessary diet to fuel endurance workouts.
I know from seeing Cereal Killers recently, that the entire Australian cricket team had switched over to low carb, but (and with no great knowledge of Australian cricket), I would not imagine those sort of athletes would have the same sort of muscular demands say the Australian rules teams or Australian rugby teams would have. I'm open to correction here.
By the way, if anyone has any good links discussing the requirements of carbs for muscle building, I would be delighted to peruse them, as simply speaking personally, the need to optimise muscle growth would be one of the main reasons I can think of to up my carb intake. I will try have a read of the above that's been posted too
http://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains
http://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/wiki/index
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I would also add (and slightly supplementary to the discussion) that regarding bulking specifically, I would imagine carbs are practically necessary just to get the required calories in to fuel muscle growth in a bulk. This is sheerly an observation on the basis it's bloody difficult (for me anyway) to imagine eating bulking levels of calories in the form of mainly fat and protein 0
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FYI - peanuts aren't nuts; they're legumes. You may or may not have a tree nut allergy. You should get tested at the allergist, so you know for sure.
I started with tree nut allergies -- ever since I was a kid. I just waited until I was 40 to throw in soy and peanut ;-) Yes, I know they are legumes. Allergist made the diagnosis with blood tests after a night in ER -- very severe peanut allergy, and soy. Darn years as a vegan likely did me in.0 -
iloseityes wrote: »I'm no expert, and I'm interested in reading some of the above, as from what I have read it seems carbs are necessary for certain functions in muscle building. I'm not talking about the energy to fuel a workout, but rather the utility of insulin to carry protein into the muscle tissues post-workout.
By the way, if anyone has any good links discussing the requirements of carbs for muscle building, I would be delighted to peruse them, as simply speaking personally, the need to optimise muscle growth would be one of the main reasons I can think of to up my carb intake. I will try have a read of the above that's been posted too
Search up Ben Greenfield and Dr Attia.0 -
Thanks. I love reddit!hotsungirl wrote: »Search up Ben Greenfield and Dr Attia.
Does that cover muscle building, or just performance-fuelling ? I got the impression it was just the latter
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Ok, from a brief read of all the above that's been linked, from what I can see, you can can bulk on keto, although without the carbs, you are taking away the beneficial insulin response for muscle building, so muscle growth may be slower. I still think it may be hard to ingest the required calories without carbs just from a practical point of view, although keto-fed weight training may have the benefit of leaner muscle gains (ie not so much fat).
OP - ketorach's ketogains reddit wiki link (http://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/wiki/index) may be what you are looking for, as per your original request for something for your trainer (who may be more concerned with muscle growth on low carb than workout performance, imo, although the refutations for low carb affecting workout performance is here in the thread too).
Aside from all that, most of the rest above posted above would seem to be more on the subject of athletic and strength performance (ie lifts, and not muscle growth), for which it seems there's a myriad of links as shared here that show anything but the most explosive types of athletic performance needs can be fuelled on keto, and that seems to be without the cyclical or targeted keto diets (CKD & TKD), which are just keto/ low-carb with the strategic inclusion of carbs at different times. Personally, I knew that to be the case with CKD & TKD diets, so doing it all with the standard keto diet (SKD) is the only item of semi interest here, for me anyway.
Thanks, I learned something new here 0 -
Ultimately, I am not ever going to be competing (that's actually a really really funny thought) I don't need to bulk up, I need to lose 15 lbs! I think I will be just fine keto
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hotsungirl wrote: »Ultimately, I am not ever going to be competing (that's actually a really really funny thought) I don't need to bulk up, I need to lose 15 lbs! I think I will be just fine keto
Haha, well there is a middle ground, as when I say bulking, I mean bulking as the extreme and sole focus on muscle building. As such, whether you are a competitive bodybuilder looking to bulk/ compete (this is not me either by the way), building a little muscle tone and retaining the muscle tone we already have, is usually a key element of weight loss, imo. After all, I'm sure its mostly fat you want to lose when you're referring to those 15lbs, lol.
Anyway, as such, I would imagine this would be part of the concern of any fitness trainer, ie anything that hampers workout performance, fat loss, and the development of some muscle tone. Workout performance and fat loss are not issues, as the above evidence suggests/ proves, but I wasn't so sure about the muscle building effects of lower carb, thus why I probably honed in on that to the exclusion of the other two
In any event, I do have a horse in this race, in so far as when I drop the remaining lbs I want to, that I shall be re-assessing my physique, and looking to build up any aesthetic muscular 'weak' points. By virtue of that, I want to make sure my diet is not acting against my goals, as generally I want to remain lower carb for overall health reasons. It was that, that I wanted to tease out in this thread, and hopefully I haven't commandeered it in any way
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iloseityes wrote: »I'm no expert, and I'm interested in reading some of the above, as from what I have read it seems carbs are necessary for certain functions in muscle building. I'm not talking about the energy to fuel a workout, but rather the utility of insulin to carry protein into the muscle tissues post-workout.
Extrapolating from that, if you are eating low-carb, there is not the requisite insulin in the body to do this effectively enough for optimal muscle building, or else the body turns to converting protein to glucose to supply the necessary insulin, or both ? This isn't a conclusion, but rather a question, and I would love to read up a little more on it as I'm not sure how much of the higher carb diet for muscle building is necessary, or if perhaps its not simply being kept going by beliefs that don't hold up ?
The stuff on endurance running is different to the question at hand, as we're looking at the difference between necessary diet to build muscle versus necessary diet to fuel endurance workouts.
I know from seeing Cereal Killers recently, that the entire Australian cricket team had switched over to low carb, but (and with no great knowledge of Australian cricket), I would not imagine those sort of athletes would have the same sort of muscular demands say the Australian rules teams or Australian rugby teams would have. I'm open to correction here.
By the way, if anyone has any good links discussing the requirements of carbs for muscle building, I would be delighted to peruse them, as simply speaking personally, the need to optimise muscle growth would be one of the main reasons I can think of to up my carb intake. I will try have a read of the above that's been posted too
I've made a channel in utube for the video list in the other thread.
This is the one specific for keto combined with sports. The other playlists are for noobs and general advanced info.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/videoseries?list=PLhMVa_juzVPn3hkFRoKS4HYkCYLyfC4wQ
Sometimes a pic does say more than 1000 words.
14 years in ketosis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0O9duM9hOw&index=3&list=PLhMVa_juzVPn3hkFRoKS4HYkCYLyfC4wQ
Btw, darthluiggi recently had a post on reddit where he sort of told about the current eating protocols in his bloodwork post.
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darthluiggi is the bomb.0
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iloseityes wrote: »I would also add (and slightly supplementary to the discussion) that regarding bulking specifically, I would imagine carbs are practically necessary just to get the required calories in to fuel muscle growth in a bulk. This is sheerly an observation on the basis it's bloody difficult (for me anyway) to imagine eating bulking levels of calories in the form of mainly fat and protein
No they're not. Look at my "old school bodybuilding" links. Arnold Schwarzenegger was a bodybuilder and bodybuilding trainer, and in his day, they did it on a low carb, high fat diet.
Protein is insulinogenic, as well, even before getting to gluconeogenesis, though generally not as much as carbs (studies show that simpler carbs average about 20% more insulin than protein, while protein is on par with fiber-heavy complex carbs). The major exception is whey, which is a major protein found in milk and is why cottage cheese was a major staple in his and other bodybuilders' diets, and the protein drink was likely whey protein. The only reason they may not have actually been in ketosis would be due to the sheer amount of protein, but since they were working out in a way that would make use of that protein, and given their low body fat, they were eating what could still fall into the realm of "adequate" protein, it's just as likely that they were in a mild state of ketosis at least some of the time.
And I think it's safe to say that he knew a thing or two about building and maintaining lots of muscle mass:
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Foamroller wrote: »
I've made a channel in utube for the video list in the other thread.
This is the one specific for keto combined with sports. The other playlists are for noobs and general advanced info.
https://www.youtube.com/embed/videoseries?list=PLhMVa_juzVPn3hkFRoKS4HYkCYLyfC4wQ
Sometimes a pic does say more than 1000 words.
14 years in ketosis.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0O9duM9hOw&index=3&list=PLhMVa_juzVPn3hkFRoKS4HYkCYLyfC4wQ
Btw, darthluiggi recently had a post on reddit where he sort of told about the current eating protocols in his bloodwork post.
Cheers, that's really great. Must check it out when I get a chance (I tend to research this stuff in the background when I have time )
Must also look out for darthluiggiDragonwolf wrote: »
No they're not. Look at my "old school bodybuilding" links. Arnold Schwarzenegger was a bodybuilder and bodybuilding trainer, and in his day, they did it on a low carb, high fat
Yeah, saw those, and my conclusion was that perhaps carbs were not necessary for *an* insulin spike, as if there was enough protein, the body would convert it to glucose and generate the spike that way. I wondered if the resultant spike was as optimal/ maximal as an insulin spike driven by carbs, which might be greater than the insulin spike driven from a protein-converted glucose (ie would the body convert enough protein to be as optimal as a carb->glucose insulin spike.
The other things that occurred to me when reading your links, was that the low carb diet was a phase over a couple of years in the 70's, as opposed to them eating low-carb for the whole decade, thus the question is did they grow as optimally on the low carb during those years, as they did when eating higher carb (which it was said they did at other portions of the 70's. After the low-carb couple of years I think).
Lastly, I would argue Arnold and co were ingesting a lot more than protein to build those physiques, even if they put in a lot of work and had the requisite genetics to allow them to grow so big on unmentionable supplements. So when in one of the videos about where it said they ate low carb during the 70's for a few years, it also said they didn't take anything other than the odd protein shake, which was obviously untrue. Thus I would have some issues with the completeness of what's being told.
Anyway, I'm not trying to argue or convince anyone of anything, I'm merely asking the question and looking for anwsers. As such, I'm happy to absorb (and question!) all of what's out there, before reaching any conclusions. Plus one of those questions, is not only is it possible, but is it optimal, given muscle growth is bloody hard to begin with, lol.
Thanks for the links though, and everyone else too
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iloseityes wrote: »Dragonwolf wrote: »
No they're not. Look at my "old school bodybuilding" links. Arnold Schwarzenegger was a bodybuilder and bodybuilding trainer, and in his day, they did it on a low carb, high fat
Yeah, saw those, and my conclusion was that perhaps carbs were not necessary for *an* insulin spike, as if there was enough protein, the body would convert it to glucose and generate the spike that way. I wondered if the resultant spike was as optimal/ maximal as an insulin spike driven by carbs, which might be greater than the insulin spike driven from a protein-converted glucose (ie would the body convert enough protein to be as optimal as a carb->glucose insulin spike.
The other things that occurred to me when reading your links, was that the low carb diet was a phase over a couple of years in the 70's, as opposed to them eating low-carb for the whole decade, thus the question is did they grow as optimally on the low carb during those years, as they did when eating higher carb (which it was said they did at other portions of the 70's. After the low-carb couple of years I think).
Lastly, I would argue Arnold and co were ingesting a lot more than protein to build those physiques, even if they put in a lot of work and had the requisite genetics to allow them to grow so big on unmentionable supplements. So when in one of the videos about where it said they ate low carb during the 70's for a few years, it also said they didn't take anything other than the odd protein shake, which was obviously untrue. Thus I would have some issues with the completeness of what's being told.
Anyway, I'm not trying to argue or convince anyone of anything, I'm merely asking the question and looking for anwsers. As such, I'm happy to absorb (and question!) all of what's out there, before reaching any conclusions. Plus one of those questions, is not only is it possible, but is it optimal, given muscle growth is bloody hard to begin with, lol.
Thanks for the links though, and everyone else too
Mehdi of StrongLifts has a good response to that, actually, complete with comparison pictures of him on steroids and another lifter on steroids. Additionally, he explicitly stated that he used them to retain mass while in cut cycles, not for gaining mass.
Also, you don't need an insulin spike from either carbs or GNG, protein itself (not even including gluconeogenesis) will generate an insulin response (whey generates insulin on par with white bread, which is why it's popular among those looking to gain mass). While no one questions that insulin is required for incorporated protein, the exact level is still up for debate.
In lifting, carbs are there less for the insulin spike they can produce, and more for the stored glycogen, which provide the body with the fuel needed for maximum explosive power. Gluconeogenesis is too delayed and too inefficient to rely on for an insulin spike (not to mention the fact that the liver won't produce enough glucose from protein to create that level of insulin unless the person is insulin resistant, in which case the person has bigger issues to worry about than eating for muscle building). Additionally, one can leverage the natural insulin spikes in the body for the extreme performance route. Regardless, you don't really want to rely on GNG anyway, because then you risk breaking down your own lean tissue, and that's the opposite of the goal (not to mention that the more you rely on GNG, the more you're taxing your kidneys).
That said, from what I've seen, carb cycling in one way or another seems to be the most popular for bodybuilding, since it provides the fat burning benefits of low carb with the jet-fuel availability of more carbs, when it's needed, to prevent performance reductions. I don't entirely agree with some of the statements in this article (carbs are not the body's preferred source for fuel in general -- it's the body's NOS system, and like nitrous oxide, it's great at low levels, but high concentrations are bad for the body), but it describes an interesting way to macro cycle that you might be interested in.0
This discussion has been closed.