How Much Protein Should I Eat?

FIT_Goat
FIT_Goat Posts: 4,224 Member
edited November 10 in Social Groups
When calculating macros, protein is the most controversial macro of all. What follows is my recommendation and opinion. I expect that some people will argue that I am wrong to recommend an amount above the bare minimum. You should make your own decision. I have provided some links to support why I believe what I do.

While we recommend the keto-calculator for most new low-carb dieters, I believe the lower end of the protein range recommended by it is too low. The primary focus should be on the preservation of lean body mass, even in preference to deeper levels of ketosis. Even if losing weight is faster or easier with deeper levels of ketosis, it is counter productive to health if that weight loss comes with lean-body-mass losses beyond the minimum possible. In spite of this, it is completely possible to stay below the upper-limit recommended by the calculator while eating enough protein to ensure maximum preservation of lean-body-mass.

Let's take me, for example.

I am a 34.5 year old male, 163 cm (5'4") tall, weighing 72.5 kg (159.5 lbs), with a body fat somewhere between 18% and 24%. Yes, that is a wide range, but there are huge margins of error when trying to calculate body fat percentage. Based on the keto-calculator, I can go as low as 73-79g of protein a day. The maximum protein recommended would be between 121-131g a day. Is the minimum safe range below this amount?

First, let's start here: How Much Protein is Enough?

This is an article that tries to establish a minimum amount of protein for ketogenic diets. It's fairly well sourced. The article recommends 1.2g per kg (of IBW) for women and 1.4g per kg (of IBW) for men. My one issue with it is that the recommendation is in grams per "Ideal Body Weight." That's a rather nebulous measurement. I did find a calculator for this at http://www.calculator.net/ideal-weight-calculator.html. Based on that calculator my ideal weight ranges from 59.3 kg to 62.1 kg.

That calculation suggests that my minimum should be between 83-87g a day, as an absolute minimum. This is well below the maximum suggested by the calculator. Of course, I prefer a slightly safer number. Do we have an amount that's known to preserve muscle mass during weight loss?

The Myth of 1 g/lb: Optimal Protein Intake for Bodybuilders

We're not body builders, but there are two studies which concern us here. Those are the ones done on athletes losing weight.
Walberg et al. (1988) found that 0.73g/lb was sufficient to maintain positive nitrogen balance in cutting weightlifters over a 7 day time period.
So these guys were literally running on a 1000 calorie deficit while drastically increasing their training volume. [...] the protein intake of 0.82 g/lb in the other group completely protected the subjects from muscle loss.

Again, we're dealing with total body weight. These are athletes, so let's use the IBW number again. Why? Because it's probably lower than current goal weights or anything else. Heck, even if you use lean-body-mass numbers, you'll be safe here.

0.73g/lb = 95-100g
0.82g/lb = 107-112g

If I used LBM (55.1 kg - 59.5 kg), I would get 88-95g or 99-107g respectively.

So what are we left with? We're still well below the upper range suggested by the keto-calculator (121-131g). My recommendation, use the keto-calculator but choose a value in the middle of the range (something that results in 1.6-1.8 g/kg should be fine).

This is further supported by one of the links from the keto-calculator itself.

Protein Intake While Dieting
After much toing and froing and research had been done it was eventually found that a protein intake of about 1.5 g/kg of lean body mass (LBM; note that researchers actually used Ideal Body Weight but this is a rough proxy for LBM) was necessary to spare LBM losses in a non-training obese individual consuming low calories.

If 1.5 g/kg is necessary, than 1.6 g/kg should be a safe minimum and account for possible errors in calculating lean-body-mass. Despite linking to this article, the keto-calculator recommends a minimum of 1.3 g/kg. This is another reason to not select the minimum.

Now, it should also be noted that the maximum protein range is not set as the level beyond which we know ketosis is affected. It is set as the level beyond which we know even the most extreme athletes receive no further benefit from more protein. Not getting any further benefit is not the same as having a detrimental affect. In the same manner, eating below that amount is not a guarantee that we're not reducing the depth of ketosis. There's a lot we don't know about protein intake and how each individual reacts. It is up to each individual to determine what level of protein intake relative to ketogenic level they would like to maintain. I strongly encourage that you don't choose the minimum recommended by the keto-calculator, and certainly not an amount lower than that.

My personal recommendation would be to use a number around the middle of the range recommended by the keto-calculator as a safe and easy to get minimum.

Replies

  • GaleHawkins
    GaleHawkins Posts: 8,159 Member
    At age 64 and 215 pounds I try to eat 90-120 grams of protein a day. If I go too high I get knocked out of nutritional ketosis.
  • FIT_Goat
    FIT_Goat Posts: 4,224 Member
    At age 64 and 215 pounds I try to eat 90-120 grams of protein a day. If I go too high I get knocked out of nutritional ketosis.

    I don't know your height or body fat %, but that should be close to the recommended range from what I said above. If you are 5'10" tall, the ideal weight calculator says you should be between 155-165 pounds. That's 113-120g a day at the 0.73 g/lb rate.

    If you're taller, your ideal weight would be higher, and your protein probably should be too.

    Note, I firmly believe that preservation of lean-body-mass trumps nutritional ketosis every time. If I had to choose between the two, it would never be a debate. While ketosis is great, if you're doing it for weight loss and not medical reasons, losing muscle mass is counter productive. The only time when I would pick ketosis over preserving muscle is if I was doing it for a specific medical reason (avoidance of seizures, for example).
  • petr8888
    petr8888 Posts: 47 Member
    Fit Goat - Thanks for some truly great inforamtion on a topic I am seeking to nail down as a newbie in Ketosis Land. I am at 86 kilos and targeting (based on multiple web sites, etc) 140 gm per day of protein. This is a ratio of 1.63 which ties well to the range you set out 1.6-1.8.

    My quesion is as follws., i recently read that too much protein and your body goes to gluco genesis (?) to convert protein to suger which could jeopardize ketosis. At what level of protein per day does this effect satrt / get heavily pronounced and at what king of glucose creation levels?

    Peter
  • FIT_Goat
    FIT_Goat Posts: 4,224 Member
    petr8888 wrote: »
    Fit Goat - Thanks for some truly great inforamtion on a topic I am seeking to nail down as a newbie in Ketosis Land. I am at 86 kilos and targeting (based on multiple web sites, etc) 140 gm per day of protein. This is a ratio of 1.63 which ties well to the range you set out 1.6-1.8.

    My quesion is as follws., i recently read that too much protein and your body goes to gluco genesis (?) to convert protein to suger which could jeopardize ketosis. At what level of protein per day does this effect satrt / get heavily pronounced and at what king of glucose creation levels?

    Peter

    The only real evidence we have is that gluconeogenesis is demand driven (aka, it happens when your body needs glucose beyond the amount you eat) and it's going to happen to some degree on a ketogenic diet. It's not necessarily a bad thing. It would be bad, if it had a huge effect on your blood sugar levels. There's no evidence that it does.

    The following page: ketotic.org/2013/01/protein-gluconeogenesis-and-blood-sugar.html is a good place to start for the basics.

    A discussion about excess protein automatically becoming glucose: ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html

    Also, in the link to the article that recommends 1.2-1.4g for women-men there is a 4 part discussion about protein and ketogenesis.

    The short answer, while excess protein doesn't seem to raise blood glucose (any more than adequate protein will for a ketogenic dieter), it does seem to have a negative impact on the depth of ketosis. What counts as excess and how much it impacts your ketones seems to be very individual. It is impossible to say. It may even be that the amounts recommended in my post (1.6-1.8g per kg) are high enough to have a negative impact (although I doubt it would be much of one, it it happens at all). My argument is that it would be wiser to err on the side of preservation of lean-body-mass over ketone levels.

    If you eat 250g of protein (say 120g is in excess), it will not be the same as eating 130g of protein and 60g of glucose--which is the general implication given by those cautioning people against too much protein.
  • petr8888
    petr8888 Posts: 47 Member
    Thanks - think I get it. So my target for protein is fairly in line with your range. Clearly there will be days when I blow past the protein target by say 20-50 grams. Think you are saying at these levels this might possibly create some glucogeneis but not at levels driven by glucose so not going to get massive insulin spikes EVEN though may possibly knock me out of ketosis for a few hours. So I am going to watch this but not sweat it.

    One other thing which I stumbled on today re ketosis truly shocked me. You may already know as you seem to have a bio background. Ketosis can divert / cure cancers? apparently cancers can NOT use fat as a source of fuel but can use carbs????

    Peter
  • FIT_Goat
    FIT_Goat Posts: 4,224 Member
    edited January 2015
    It really depends on the specific type of cancer. Some forms require glucose, others seem to be able to use other forms of energy. I know when my mom had cancer, her oncologist strongly recommended a reduction in carbs, as her form was one where carb reduction seemed to help.

    I've read similar things to what you've read. I just don't get my hopes too high. Each kind of cancer could reasonably be considered it's own separate disease. What works for some won't work for others. Carb restriction certainly seems to hold promise for the kinds that require glucose.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130131144427.htm
  • cdn_beaver
    cdn_beaver Posts: 130 Member
    I usually aim for middle of the range for the recommendations. Some days I'm at the low end and others I'm towards the high side. IMO It all works out as long as you're not eating high end all the time.
  • shortnsassy1981
    shortnsassy1981 Posts: 154 Member
    I am always at the higher end. I average 100-120gm of protein a day and I'm 5ft. I eat my protein before I worry about any other macro. I follow protein with my fat to satiety, but always more than 30 gm. My fat hovers around 80-90gm a day but sometimes as a low as 50-65 if I've eat lots of lean protein that day. I used to not stress much over protein, but since I increased it my hair and my nails are much stronger and healthier.
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