DittoDan wrote: »

You're confusing me. As you try to convert everyone that its possible to eat a huge amount of calories, keep your carbs next to zero and not gain weight, (AND I BELIEVE YOU), but explain the other tenet of a Ketogenic diet, and that is "to reduced hunger"? (you probably know the low fat/grain/carb eating diets and how the hormones and enzymes that get released that make carb-eaters super hungry).

This tenet doesn't seem to be working with you? Or what is going on? I mean, if newbies are looking at your meal plan, they may be scratching their heads and ask themselves, "I thought hunger was reduced on this diet?".

Edumacate me on this dynamic.

I don't think everyone should eat huge amounts of calories. It's important to point out that I usually only talk about my huge eating days. I don't bother talking about the day when I wasn't really that interested in eating and only hit 1,800 calories. On a weekly basis, the whole amount eaten averages out to about 2,500-2,600 calories. I try and include that point whenever I talk about a 4,300 calorie day. Because that almost certainly means there were 3-4 days near or under 2,000.

I can be sure that my hunger signals aren't out of whack because my weight is going in the right direction (or staying the same) most weeks. If I was gaining weight and still found myself hungry all the time, that would be a sign that something was wrong. I'm actually rarely "hungry" in the sense that I crave food. It is more of an "I want to eat" signal and not an "I need to eat" one.

I happen to enjoy big feast days. I don't "not enjoy" the other days. I just find myself disinterested in the idea of eating much. Today, for example, I haven't eaten a whole lot. I had my typical breakfast and lunch (which amounts to about 1,200 calories), and I already can tell I won't be wanting a big dinner. I may only have an 8 oz steak, or less. Maybe I'll have a 12 oz one. I'll probably cook 12-16 oz, but I will only eat as much as I desire.

I do believe most people get a "reduced hunger" when going to keto, but primarily because their previous hunger levels were way too high. I think it's better to say that hunger more closely aligns with physical need. I am more hungry than most because I need more calories than most people. I am still losing weight, and I don't exactly have tons of weight left to go. When your weight is off to one extreme or another, your hunger is proportionately off to the inverse extreme. Someone who is under-weight will be hungrier than their ideal intake and someone who is over-weight will be less hungry than their ideal intake. As your weight returns to the natural weight your body desires, your appetite adjusts to return to the amount needed to maintain that natural weight. When I was heavier, I experienced the "disinterested in food" days much more frequently than I do now.

I couldn't physically force myself to eat a 52 oz steak every day (even if it was my only food). Heck, I couldn't even force myself to do it on that day. I eat as much as I desire. I often cook more than I end up eating, because I find myself full before I expected. It doesn't bother me. A steak I don't finish for dinner, makes an excellent breakfast or lunch the next day.

Now, I also do believe that the consequences of over-consumption when eating very-low-carb are minimal. Your body is just not that determined to store more of what it already has too much of. Can you force yourself to over-eat and eventually gain some weight? Yeah. But, it will almost certainly have to be intentional and the weight gain will be less than predicted. I think the experiment where the guy ate 5,794 calories/day -- http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/ -- and gained less than 20% of the predicted amount is a good example of how difficult it would be. It would be even harder for someone already heavier than they should be, because they would be trying to push their body even further away from equilibrium.

tl;dr: Hunger signals normalize as weight normalizes, which means they approach the correct amount you should be eating for your ideal weight.

Dan the Man from Michigan

P.S. (I don't want this to turn into a huge debate, I will believe your explanation. Do NOT circle your wagons!). I'm not wanting a huge missive. I understand that everybody is different. I am just curious. Maybe your stomach is "stretched out" and you need that much to feel satiated. I know that there would be no way that I could eat that much now (my stomach feels full after about 8 oz of meat). But I am a LOW calorie person.

Sorry, I can't help the missive. It's who I am. But, you did bring up a good point. I don't think most people should eat as much as I do. I do believe they shouldn't fear the occasional high calorie day. I did have some 3,000+ calorie days even when losing my fastest (usually offset with some naturally 1,400-1,500 days). I almost believe, without any support, that those big days are "psychologically, physiologically, or hormonally" beneficial in some way. It's like they reassure the body that "food is ample, we can afford to down regulate our fat stores." Like I said, I have no evidence of that... no study that proves it... just a very strong hunch.

If you feel full and disinterested after 8 oz of meat, that's your body saying, "hey buddy, we've got plenty of fuel." I get that signal often. Sometimes, I get that signal all day whenever I think of food. I've been eating 2-4 meals a day recently, but it's not that rare for me to just not want food all day until I have a massive dinner.

FIT_Goat wrote: »

<snip>

If you feel full and disinterested after 8 oz of meat, that's your body saying, "hey buddy, we've got plenty of fuel." I get that signal often. Sometimes, I get that signal all day whenever I think of food. I've been eating 2-4 meals a day recently, but it's not that rare for me to just not want food all day until I have a massive dinner.

Well said... thanks for the clarification. You probably "cringe" (I'm just guessing and could be wrong) when you see all the posts on this and Keto where people fret over bad/mistaken MFP entries and/or how we pay so much attention to counting calories.

I was cringing a little when I saw how big your steaks were... LOL! But your explanation sounds logical.

Thank you again....

Dan the Man from Michigan

I tried to overeat meat recently after Goat's story about all-you-can-eat ribs. I ordered too many pork ribs. Simply could not eat them all. The protein satiety force is a strong one in me.

DittoDan wrote: »

You probably "cringe" (I'm just guessing and could be wrong) when you see all the posts on this and Keto where people fret over bad/mistaken MFP entries and/or how we pay so much attention to counting calories.

I do and I don't.

Sometimes I want to retort, "does it really matter if you're off by 5g of protein and 97 calories over a whole day?" I could point out that there's as much as 20% error allowed for nutritional information, and even if we assume the better range of only 10% error, we could still be off by more each day than some of the error sizes people worry about. Or how about the fact that there's no way to know, for sure, the exact nutritional composition of your steak (no matter how accurately you weighed it before cooking) because of a multitude of factors including: does it have more or less marbling than the USDA average sample for that cut, was it dry or wet aged, was it trimmed to the exact amount the USDA specifies for that cut, etc.

Then, I remind myself that I've been there. I've weighed every food I've put in my mouth to the gram. I've compared various entries to the best known information for a product to make sure I picked the most accurate nutritional information. I've included error estimations to know how fuzzy my numbers really were (this is actually part of what made me realize how futile it can be). I've tracked, I've weighed, I've even used the numbers for raw bacon and then subtracted the weight of the drained fat from it. I've worried about accounting for the fat grams lost from my burger when I cooked it on my Foreman grill.

I'm no better than anyone. I've been there. I grew weary of it and found a way that works, for me, without all the effort. But, I do understand the worry. I think it's unfounded. The truth is we just can't calorie count accurately enough to make minor adjustments. We can make huge, sweeping changes to force ourselves outside the margins of error, but that's about it. And, if we're making huge, sweeping changes anyway then being off by 30-40 calories on an entry isn't going to effect anything.

wabmester wrote: »

FIT_Goat wrote: »

The truth is we just can't calorie count accurately enough to make minor adjustments. We can make huge, sweeping changes to force ourselves outside the margins of error, but that's about it. And, if we're making huge, sweeping changes anyway then being off by 30-40 calories on an entry isn't going to effect anything.

I don't make any attempt to be accurate, but I try to be conservative. I set my calorie target a bit low knowing that I'll often overshoot (sort of like setting your clock ahead so you're not late). I underestimate exercise calories, and I use the highest estimate for input calories when I'm unsure.

It seems to work for me. I'm not hungry, and I'm losing the weight at the rate I targeted.

And @FIT_Goat‌

I do this Wab. I short my calories by 200 to allow for all kinds of descrepencies, over-eating, not weighing, not knowing what I am eating, wrong entries, cheating, ad infinitum.

That way, if I am wrong and go over, I'm still at a deficit. If I am accurate, I lose faster. Its a win-win situation.

Dan the Man from Michigan

Nikki,

I tried something tonight that might qualify. I thought about this discussion after I ate it. I heated up my corned beef, and wished I could make a bread sandwich with mayo. So, naturally I couldn't have the bread, so I slathered about a tbs of no carb Mayo on top of my Corned beef. IT WAS SO GOOD! LOL!

I hope this helps,

Dan the Man from Michigan
Do You Like Fatty Beef? Try Corned Beef

6oz ground beef (anywhere from 75-85% fat), tbsp kerrygold butter, 4oz chopped up white myshrooms, sprinkle of garlic, copious salt and pepper. Cook it up together, then melt some swiss on top, eat it all mixed together.

Mushroom-swiss burger rip-off, lol

My new favorite breakfast, Egg Pumpkin Pancakes

1/2 cup canned pumpkin
2 eggs
1/2 ts baking powder
1 ts cinnamon
sweetener

Mix together then cook like a pancake. They can be trickey to flip though. I add a couple tablespoons of sugar free syrup or whipped cream on top.

Makes me 2 5-6 in pancakes.

190 calories. 11g carbs, 8 net carbs, 14g protein, 10g fat (not counting the butter I grease the pan with or toppings)

http://www.hungryhealthygirl.com/2014/09/15/flourless-pumpkin-pancakes/

OMG, me too. My kids know my habits by now and ask me in the evening if I am "buttering my cheese". I love sandwich fillings without the bread. Sometimes I'll warp them in lettuce, but usually just eat them on their own, with butter or mayo.