I went really slow when I made the transition. Took several months to get back up to the weights I had been using. I was still using 5/3/1 AMRAP so I was just doing a lot more reps.

Looking back I probably would have gone faster. The carryover between lifts is excellent. In less than a year I've gone from a 465 1RM to a 465 5RM (conventional to sumo). With MUCH better form too.

TR0berts wrote: »

Based on some issues I've had with conventional deadlifts, and talking with a few of the guys Saturday, I'm going to switch over to sumo. The thing is: where do I start?

I'm going back to 5/3/1 - not sure why I ever got away from it, as it worked very well for me before - and I'm not sure if I should just start going sumo; or if I should go down quite a bit and do a linear progression on deadlift day. In either case, how much should I go down? I'm thinking maybe using a 75% training max, if I go with the 5/3/1 for DL, instead of the usual 90%.

Is either of those a good idea, or does someone here have a better idea? For those of you that have made this switch - what did you do, and how did it work?

If you're not switching due to injury (ie conventional hurts, sumo doesn't) then I'd start out by continuing to train conventional in your 5/3/1 and program sumo as an accessory at about 50% of your conventional 1rm (that's a pretty big guess). Build it up from there and maybe in 2 months or so swap it in for your 5/3/1.

SideSteel wrote: »

TR0berts wrote: »

SideSteel wrote: »

For me the biggest motivator was that my levers for conventional stressed my lumbar quite a bit and it seemed that even very minor deviations in form caused injury. After 3-4 minor injuries I finally determined that I had to just suck it up and switch to sumo despite having poor mobility.

Yeah, that's basically it. I had an issue a number of months back, where I had to pretty much take a couple of weeks off. Things got better, so I went waaaaaaay low with all my lifts, and built them back up. I tweaked my back doing warmups this past weekend, which seemed weird to me. While I was thinking of switching, I wasn't yet convinced, but that was what solidified my decision.

So I'm planning on doing a modified BBB, with volume deads on squat day, volume bench on OHP day, etc. Based on the responses I've gotten, I'm going keep the 90% TM and pull conventional for 2-3 cycles, but the volume deads will be sumo at 50-60% of my TM. Then make the switch to sumo full time.


Thanks.

edited for a formatting issue and because I apparently can't spell very well at 7am

I ran a similar setup a while ago and I liked it. Flipping the BBB work is a good idea IMO.

I do it too. Helps keep brutal DOMS at bay too. Doing max effort squats followed by volume squats followed by some other misc leg accessories would practically put me in a wheelchair the next day or two.

One thing that I recently set up for one of my clients is as follows (and I'll add that I don't have much data on this but it intuitively makes some sense to me which is why I set it up this way):

On 5/5/5 week the main assistance movement is in the 10-12 rep range at around 55-60% 1rm

On 3/3/3 week the main assistance movement is in the 8-10 rep range at 60-65% 1rm

On 5/3/1 week the main assistance movement is in the 6-8 rep range at 65-70% 1rm

This basically periodizes the main assistance movement to follow the 5/3/1 periodization. Volume goes down, intensity goes up along with the main lift.

Obviously you could customize/tweak the volume and intensity that I've laid out above so that it best fits your needs. I sort of pulled those numbers out of my butt but they seem to be roughly appropriate.

nossmf wrote: »

My deadlift lags behind my other lifts in terms of the relative weights involved. As in, my deadlift is heavier than my bench but lighter than my squat, where I keep reading it should be the heaviest of the three. Obviously my legs are strong enough to go heavier, but I'm thinking it's mostly form holding me back. I wonder if swapping from conventional to sumo would work to kick-start my deads back up again, since it seems to alter the spinal alignment. (I already squat sumo-style.)

I only lift twice a week due to time constraints, formerly a split between chest/back and legs/shoulders but currently doing full-body each day but with different emphasis (heavy chest/light legs and vice versa).

I can relate to this pretty well actually.

I was stuck at 405 for about a year and my squat was right at 405 as well. Granted I had several injuries last year, but I made several changes that seemed to help. I'll list those out more for purposes of discussion but I think that as with anything, you'd want to identify whether or not there's a cause.

For me, I switched to sumo but it was because of the injuries to my lower back. Sumo turns out MUCH safer for me, which allows me to train at higher intensities and volumes and recover from it and also not injure myself as frequently. Making the change brought me from 405 to 365.

Other changes to note:

- Programming changes (pulling twice/week)
- Technique improvements
- Mental improvements*
- Getting stronger at the squat


I attribute the greatest progress to moving to sumo (for safety primarily) and then a combination of technique improvements and mental improvements. I don't know another way to say it other than I was lifting like a total *kitten*.

Once I finally got it through my head that I'm not supposed to daintily lift the bar, and instead that I am supposed to blast it off the floor like someone has a gun to my head, it made a huge difference. The other things on the list obviously helped as well.

I've still got a long way to go at it but at my first meet in February I pulled 451 (rushed the down command but it went up clean), and hit 425x3 and 405x5 in the past two weeks of training (still in the volume/accumulation block). Hoping to see 460-470 at my meet in May, and really would like to hit 500 by year end.

For reference my squat is likely around 425-430 1rm, 418 in a meet, 405x3 with 1 in the tank in training.

Mentioning this to give perspective on the relative differences between the two. Last year they were even, right now my dead is just slightly higher.

I think you're on the right track training full body 2/week if you are limited to two training days per week.

Depending on how much rest between those two days you MIGHT be able to pull twice/week (one heavy and one light) and I'd definitely squat and bench 2xweek (probably one heavy and one moderate for each).

Stuck at one weight for a whole year? That must be maddening.

nossmf wrote: »

First, thanks for the response. So here's a tad more detail with numbers...

Current 1RM (gym best, NOT competition, I've never competed):

Bench - 275 (almost got 285, but that's subject for another post)
Squat - 475 (other day I got 405x10, so next time I try for PR I'm expecting to get 500)
Deadlift - 405 (months ago, these days I'm lucky to get 385)

I only added the deadlift to my arsenal a year or so ago (been lifting for almost six years), and at first the weight increased very rapidly, despite being a veteran lifter. Felt like I was a rookie lifter again, it was fun. Right up until I pulled 405 and tweaked my lower back. Ever since I've been terrified of trying to go back up again. (Injured my shoulder doing incline presses four years ago, have never done them again since, at least not with a barbell.) Took me months before I went above 315 for fear of injury. Spent my time focusing on my bench/squat, adding 30 pounds to each after I started alternating heavy and light weeks. I have my sights set on another 25 pounds for each by year's end, which would give me a 1200 total at 182 BW. Imagine if I could get my pulls up as well!

Finances won't allow for a PT atm, and as mentioned before I'm stuck with twice a week training with one day between gym days. (I work 4 days on, 4 off, and between 12-hr shifts and commute hitting the gym on work days isn't as high a priority as spending time with my kids. Thus I can only train on my 4 days off, so I get 1-2 days between sessions and 4-5 days before my next session.) Hence my interest in learning what I can of form here. For the record, my form is excellent on light weights, but sure breaks down fast as I go above 300.

Current program I built is a modified Westside, where instead of doing four days per week (heavy chest, explosive chest, heavy legs, explosive legs) I'm combining into my two days:

Chest/back 80-90% sets of 1-3
Legs 25% (sets of 3 explosively) and 50% (sets of 10)

Shoulders & arms each get 1 exercise / 3 sets per day at moderate weight. Was thinking about adding deadlifts both days as well, doing 3x10 on heavy back day and 5x2 on heavy leg day.

Do you mind posting a video of your squat and deadlift? Feel free to post in the form check thread or post it here.

It could be technical.

It could also be that your squat is shallow -- I'm certainly not suggesting this is the case of course, but it's one thing that does happen when people have squats that are much higher than deads in non competition scenarios.

That is a pretty big difference, so I'd be curious to see what both lifts look like.

nossmf wrote: »

I can already tell you my heaviest squats are probably not competition-worthy. My form is textbook through 315, at least parallel through 405, and above that mark I know my knees bend to at least 90 but I doubt I go all the way to parallel every time. Bad knees is the reason I do sumo squats rather than narrow-stance.

When I deadlift normal through about 225, the angle of my torso never changes. From 275 and on, I know my hips tend to go up faster than my shoulders, turning my deadlift into almost an RDL (albeit with the bar already half up my shins). When I pulled 405, it was almost strictly lower back powering it up. I recognize the fact, but have been thus far unable to fix the fact.

That's where doing the sumo DL today came as a revelation. I only pulled 225 for 3 sets of 8, but my lower back didn't feel a thing. I was able to dip my hips lower than I ever could regular, and was almost vertical for much of the lift. Is that how it's done, or am I again screwing something up? lol It felt a little weird, but completely strain-free. Wonder if it'll stay that way as I climb back up in weight.

Generally you'll have more knee flexion and less hip flexion in the sumo deadlift. So basically your torso will be more upright in comparison to the conventional. You'll feel much less strain on your lower back, or at least some degree less depending on your levers.

For me the difference is substantial. I'm hitting rep PR's rather regularly now on deadlifts (410x5 today) and my recovery is great. If I were doing this conventional I'd either be injured or I'd have to rest twice as long for my back to recover to be ready to pull again.