Research for the 8-12 Weeks at TDEE

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MandaLeigh123
MandaLeigh123 Posts: 351 Member
Hey all you happy EM2WL crew!

Quick question: Why the recommendation to stay at TDEE for 8-12 weeks before doing a cut?
Why not 4 weeks or 20 weeks?

How was this recommendation developed? Is it based on peoples individual experiences or is this based on some science?

I've been doing a lot of reading the last week on fixing metabolism and I haven't found any sort of research to back timelines like this. Maybe I am overlooking them? I'm pretty sure I'm close to my TDEE so looking into this part of it more now. I know my metabolism has already been repairing itself these last six week as I increase bc if it hadn't been, the scale would have been going up and up. I think everyone's body is pretty unique, so I'm just keeping that in mind as I decide what I will do next. I know some of you EM2WL pro's are thinking, slow down chick-a-dee! But shouldn't I consider the fact that I've been increasing and haven't really seen a gain? I would think that means my metabolism is catching up with me as I go?
Thanks as always!

PS I will hang my head in shame if this research article is in a stickie at the top of the page, I just don't have time to re-read everything this morning and it's on my mind.

Replies

  • Jennbecca33
    Jennbecca33 Posts: 321 Member
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    So I emailed the team to get some articles and such that you can read, but in the meantime, here's a good blog post written by the team that might help.

    http://eatmore2weighless.com/metabolism-reset-how-much-longer/

    I'm sure a lot of it comes from their personal experience as trainers and working with those who have undereaten for long periods. A lot of it is healing the mental side of eating and a lot of it is healing the metabolism. That 9-12 weeks is the general recommendation, but they do stress that everyone is different. Your metabolism does seem to have responded really well, unlike many others who take months to stabilize. You probably wouldn't need to stay at TDEE for as long maybe, but I think I'd do a month at least to make sure your weight is stable there. I'll get back with you when I get some more info on research. :)
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
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    This study references another one that took a year to show signs of speedup.
    Also shows it's not just metabolism, it's total body burn which is beyond metabolism.

    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/heybales/view/reduced-metabolism-tdee-beyond-expected-from-weight-loss-616251

    You'll notice here the ones that had the effects of slowdown, while eating at lab measured suppressed TDEE, started speeding already, but study ended at 3 months of biggest slowdown time.
    Would it have kept going up causing a deficit to eventually occur eating at same amount?
    Would they have kept increasing the eating level based on new lab measured TDEE?
    What would the speed have been eating slightly more than suppressed TDEE, until back up at potential TDEE?

    I've never seen a study except the one they reference that had timelines, because genetics, severity, other stresses, ect, all are going to effect that.

    There are people purposely eating low enough to slow their TDEE down all the time, not in a diet, just a way of life to benefit from hopeful longevity animal studies have shown. They don't speed back up and start losing weight, they stay suppressed.

    The only other thing I've seen are case studies, based on a person coming in with an issue, getting current stats, changing something, and getting end stats.
    So accuracy of what got them there doesn't exist beyond people's memory.
    But those show promise.
    Here's one such example that only looked at RMR reading, so this was metabolism, but you can bet that if RMR went down, the other parts of TDEE already went down too since they happen first to protect the RMR as best it can.
    And you can probably discern the actual weight gain came about by binging often enough fat was added, because TDEE was so low.

    A similar case study was published by Jampolis (2004).
    A 51 year old patient complained of a 15 lb weight gain over the last year, despite beginning a strenuous triathlon and marathon training program (2 hours per day, 5-6 days per week).
    A 3 day diet analysis estimated a daily intake of only 1000-1200 Calories.
    An indirect calorimetry revealed a resting metabolic rate of 950 Calories (28% below predicted for age, height, weight, and gender).
    After medications and medical conditions such as hypothyroidism and diabetes were ruled out, the final diagnosis was over-training and undereating. The following treatment was recommended:

    Increase daily dietary intake by approximately 100 Calories per week to a goal of 1500 calories
    32% protein; 35% carbohydrates; 33% fat
    Consume 5-6 small meals per day
    Small amounts of protein with each meal or snack
    Choose high fiber starches
    Select mono- and poly- unsaturated fats
    Restrict consumption of starch with evening meals unless focused around training
    Take daily multi-vitamin and mineral supplement
    Perform whole body isometric resistance training 2 times per week

    After 6 weeks, the patient's resting metabolism increased 35% to 1282 Calories per day (only 2% below predicted).
    The patient also decreases percent fat from 37% to 34%, a loss of 5 lbs of body fat.

    Jampolis MB (2004) Weight Gain - Marathon Runner / Triathlete. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, 36(5) S148.
  • agardengrrrl
    agardengrrrl Posts: 50 Member
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    I was thinking it would be awesome to create an EM2WL database of how people respond to increasing calories. Obviously not as good as published study, but more data would be good.
  • Jennbecca33
    Jennbecca33 Posts: 321 Member
    edited April 2015
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    Ok, here's the awesome response I got from Kiki! Super interesting!

    I'd recommend that she check out our "resources" page if she hasn't already. It's jam-packed with info.

    http://eatmore2weighless.com/faqs/resources/

    EM2WL research is based on a combo of several studies on starvation response and human biology. Then we give obviously general guidelines with the "adapt to your situation" disclaimer lol. Most people need LONGER resets, but on rare occasion someone would do "ok" with shorter. Longer typically does more good than harm, so we find it best to err on the side of caution. This doc from our resources page shows that the process could take 6 to 9 months -- beyond what we recommend.

    http://www.7layerliving.com/wpcontent/uploads/2010/01/feastorfamine.pdf

    And the biology of human starvation volumes indicated at least a three-month rehab (eating double the cals) after the starvation experiment ended.

    http://eatmore2weighless.com/the-starvation-experiment/

    The vids that we have on the resources page from Layne Norton suggest that the reset should actually be AS LONG as the diet was. Yikes! Lol

    The reason that there are so many different numbers is that we're not just talking about "weight" but also replenishing any other vital nutrients/minerals/functions that may have been affected by the "budget" of low cal dieting. So the commonality...the longer the reset, the healthier the person will be for it in the end.

    But we know that most people will not be willing to wait as long… So we set our standard where it is. We originally said 4 to 6 weeks because we thought that people would not commit to more than that, LOL & we just wanted to get as many nutrients in there as we could. But we found that we were doing the Fam a great disservice shortening the length of time, so we have recently extended it… And still encourage them to go as long as possible. The choices so individual to the circumstances that each person is under, it's really hard to have one blanket guideline. So if she was not dieting for that long before and truly feels that her body is ready, it will be a personal call to move forward. At the very least she could test the waters and if her body does not respond continue resetting."

  • MandaLeigh123
    MandaLeigh123 Posts: 351 Member
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    Its all interesting stuff. Appreciate evidence based research (science gal) & pairing it with my feelings about things.

    So...Its not that I want to rush this reset process per say, but I guess with the high amount of calories I am eating at the moment, I'm personally not very worried about how little I would have to eat on a cut or if my metabolism is still slightly supressed. It has to be better than it was 6 weeks ago.

    So maybe my TDEE is 2850-2950 or something. A cut is 2500? 2300? I havent even calculated it. Its still a lot of food.

    I've been hitting these higher calories of 2800+ and sometimes over eating even but its not because I am hungry. I've been hitting the goals bc I've been going out to eat almost every day but I cant afford that anymore. I'm having trouble replicating those higher cal meals at home (as mentioned previously in a post).

    I havent felt actual hunger in over six weeks. I eat until the point of feeling stuffed most meals. I still feel satiated for the day around 1500-1800/cal. I can comfortably eat up to about 2400. I keep waiting for my metabolism to rev up and feel starving but I dont. There was one day I felt ravenous all day long but this was PMS & not really hunger. Just cravings for sweet & salty foods.

    The biggest difference I have noticed since increase in cals is increase in strength and endurance during exercise. Do I have more energy during the day? Probably but if I do, I honestly dont notice it. Also social gatherings are more enjoyable being able to eat more.

    I really do not like eating when I am not hungry. Its part of the equation which led to becoming overweight. To a certain point, I dont mind it (food=fuel)- but when I'm just stuffing my face with food thats not even tasting good anymore... I dont think its a healthy spot for me mentally.

    My goal was to do a full metabolic reset but its starting to stress me out. At 1200/cal I was stressed out bc I thought I was over eating at 1600 cals. Now, at 3,000 calories, I stressed out on how to hit my levels everday without feeling sick to my stomach.

    My reason for wanting to do a cut is just to eay less calories. Its not bc I am scared of gaining weight. Eating really has become a chore again. I am in the last month of my first semester of nursing school & I dont want to constantly be worried about hitting calorie goals.

    Dont rush the process- I know. But full metabolic reset will be waiting for me if I end up cutting too early. I can always come back to it. Its heating up here temp wise as well, so I've been feeling even want to eat.

    I've never been someone who can follow a program perfectly & I need to go with my gut on this for a bit & have a break from gut stuffing. When I complain in six months that I cant lose body fat, you guys can remind me how I gave up early on my reset but I feel good with my desicion.

    Thx for all the time you all take to engage with me. I hope me sharing my process & struggles with it, it helps someone out.
  • Jennbecca33
    Jennbecca33 Posts: 321 Member
    edited April 2015
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    I think you've done awesome increasing your cals and it's been great for you to see how much your body truly burns! I know you've learned so much through the process - you can definitely cut and still eat a lot of food. I can totally see how it's a chore to eat that many calories. I know you don't want to decrease your exercise because you enjoy it so much, but one option would be to take out some of your cardio so you're not getting such high burns, and then your TDEE would be quite a bit lower - and much easier to support nutritionally. Thanks for sharing it all with us!
  • MandaLeigh123
    MandaLeigh123 Posts: 351 Member
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    Thx! :)
  • MandaLeigh123
    MandaLeigh123 Posts: 351 Member
    edited April 2015
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    It's weird because it really seems to me like the scooby's equation changed.... I have all of these numbers written down somewhere, but I remember that for my age, weight, height if I put in "gain muscle, lose fat":
    5-6 hours activity was around 2700 something
    7-21 hours activity was around 2900 something

    I just put in the same exact information and got these numbers:
    5-6 hours activity was around 2412
    7-21 hours activity was around 2657

    NEVERMIND! *hangs head in embarrassment* I just switched the gender to male, and the male calories reflect what I remember. Oops! Maybe I have been going off dude numbers. Well, haha... not a bad thing at all since my TDEE was higher than 2657! I think this mistake really worked in my favor.
  • bonniejo
    bonniejo Posts: 787 Member
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    I was thinking it would be awesome to create an EM2WL database of how people respond to increasing calories. Obviously not as good as published study, but more data would be good.

    I LOVE this idea. Just sayin.
  • agardengrrrl
    agardengrrrl Posts: 50 Member
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    It would be pretty easy to set up an online form that would fill in a google spreadsheet with people's responses. The issue would be choosing the questions. I'm a social scientist so I'm really interested in research and understanding patterns in people's experiences.

    I do appreciate the need for longer reset periods. I'm thinking long term now, like 6 months cutting, 6 months at maintenance for several years to get to my goal. This pattern would mean I might need a couple of years to get to my goal weight since I probably need to lose about 40-55 lbs still. I can see how most people would have trouble being patient for that long.
  • Graceious1
    Graceious1 Posts: 716 Member
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    This a fantastic post and thank you to those who have posted links. I am on a metabolic reset and I am loving it. I love eating and I have been lifting for 7 weeks now and resetting for three. Great support here and once again thank you.
  • MandaLeigh123
    MandaLeigh123 Posts: 351 Member
    edited April 2015
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    Great job on your reset Gracious! Did all of you newbies keep pushing your TDEE higher and higher until you started to gain then drop your calories back down 100 cals? Just curious because seems like some of the new people didnt push all the way up, but started at a cut level of calories. If I had been going off recommendations for women, I probably would have stopped out of fear around 2,657 (top lady cals on scooby). Since I was mistakenly going of men numbers, I blew right past that number w/o thinking twice.

    I think if I my TDEE was 2200-2500, I wouldnt have the same struggles. I can hit those numbers fairly easily now & I like eating that much.
    3,000 is a totally different ball game though and there is only 1 woman on my list who regularly eats that much.
    My opinion is its easy to hit that number sometimes but everyday- its work & its hard to explain to people unless they've tried.

    My husband recommended I go back to the weed smoking ways of my early 20's. I could easily put away 3,000 then!
  • MandaLeigh123
    MandaLeigh123 Posts: 351 Member
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    (Mfp is cutting my posts short)
    The end of that should- smoking a joint isnt a current part of my weight loss plan.
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
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    I think your body responding so quickly to the increase of calories by obviously increasing it's burn is a good genetic sign. Hopefully.

    It could also mean it's fast to adjust - either direction.

    Except this time, you aren't dumping down to bare bottom levels - just a minor deficit.
    So the stress shouldn't be anywhere near the same.

    And as recommended many places, every 6th week, you take a diet break and eat at current TDEE for new weight.
    2 weeks would be better, as it seems to be found it takes about that long for hormones to reset better.

    I think you have a good activity factor for your level of exercise, so no matter what your BMR drops to you'll get a decent TDEE estimate no matter what Scooby says.