What's the difference? 100g, 50g, 20g, zero?
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There are physiological differences between those levels. Around 20g, you're limiting nitrogen loss from catabolizing lean body mass. Around 50g you're limiting gluoconeogenesis. Somewhere under 100g, ketosis starts being meaningful.
Figure out what you're trying to do, and pick a level that works for you.
If someone is highly active - ie, lots of cardio - ketosis will indeed be very stressful on the body. When going to macro extremes, it's important to match intake to activity.
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lol, no worries. I meant to quote the original messages. But, I ended up accidentally clicking the back button after my original long post. In my frustration at losing the message, I just posted the link and a quote. I didn't have the energy to recreate the whole thing.0
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lol, no worries. I meant to quote the original messages. But, I ended up accidentally clicking the back button after my original long post. In my frustration at losing the message, I just posted the link and a quote. I didn't have the energy to recreate the whole thing.
I hate when that happens. I would have liked to see your response.
Here's the most direct study of cortisol and LCHF I've seen:
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2007-0692
In both the ad libitum and isocaloric studies, rates of appearance (Ra) of endogenous cortisol and d3-cortisol during steady state of the deuterated cortisol infusion were higher on the HF-LC than the MF-MC diet.
Another one here:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1199154
Twenty-four hour urinary cortisol excretion, a hormonal measure of stress, was highest with the very low-carbohydrate diet.0 -
totaloblivia wrote: »Doesn't that just mean you don't need carbs to produce the glucose the brain needs?
Correct, the minimum dietary carbohydrate requirement is zero.
The European regulator EFSA proposed a minimum 30 grams of carbs in very low calorie diets "based on the minimum glucose requirements of the brain".
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And actually, @yarwell, starvation mode is not a myth. If calories are significantly reduced below sufficient needs, the body will down regulate metabolism in an effort to maintain functions. This down regulation can last as long as a year after a prolonged incident. The body down regulates metabolism and up regulates hunger signals. So although you "won't hold on to your fat" indefinitely, it will be more difficult to lose because the body is using less, and once calorie restriction is removed, the body will voraciously do everything it can to gain the weight back.0
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lol, no worries. I meant to quote the original messages. But, I ended up accidentally clicking the back button after my original long post. In my frustration at losing the message, I just posted the link and a quote. I didn't have the energy to recreate the whole thing.
I hate when that happens. I would have liked to see your response.
Here's the most direct study of cortisol and LCHF I've seen:
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2007-0692
In both the ad libitum and isocaloric studies, rates of appearance (Ra) of endogenous cortisol and d3-cortisol during steady state of the deuterated cortisol infusion were higher on the HF-LC than the MF-MC diet.
Another one here:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1199154
Twenty-four hour urinary cortisol excretion, a hormonal measure of stress, was highest with the very low-carbohydrate diet.
What is "deuterated cortisol infusion"?0 -
On my phone. Deuterated allows them to track. They were looking at mechanisms, including reuptake, inhibition, etc.0
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I am away from home, but the jama article doesn't prove much for cortisol elevation, with the overlapping confidence intervals, we can only say for sure that the very low carb was higher than the very low fat. We can't draw conclusions as to if it was higher than the baseline or the low glycemic diet.
This is also short term. We have no idea about consistently elevated cortisol from long term keto adapted folks.0 -
Definitely agree, adrenal fatigue becomes an issue when very low carb and being active. I love to run but I am nursing, pregnant, raising 8 children and low carb. The first week running i feel great but then my knees and legs begin to weaken, like my body is eating my muscles...next i'm waking up at 3-4 a.m. which makes everything all the worse. As soon as i stop running, replace it with yoga and let my carbs slide (usually by adding a vitamin c drink) i'm back to incredible energy. But also like FIT goat is saying my cravings dramatically increase when i'm over 20g carbs. So it is a balancing act.
I would sure be interested in seeing some studies done on long term zero carb, and cortisol levels, out of curiosity.
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We have no idea about consistently elevated cortisol from long term keto adapted folks.
The first study looked at subjects over a 4-week period. Yeah, that's not terribly long term, but it's long enough for them to be keto-adapted (which is a semi-meaningless term). There are some interesting side-notes in that study -- e.g., elevated cortisol was a function of low carb intake, not weight loss.
Anyway, I'm pretty convinced by these studies, and they also make some metabolic sense to me, but it doesn't tell us if those cortisol levels are "bad" for us.
In the end, we can be certain that our carb intake can change our physiological state. We don't know much about the long-term effects of these changes because most people don't stay in these very-low-carb states very long. At least not until everybody on the interwebz started biohacking.
Hack away!
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I don't know if this has any bearing whatsoever but I know that I feel calmer than I ever have on this WOE. I've often said that I'm allergic to adrenalin. My anxiety reactions are way beyond 'normal' and I suffered the most debilitating anxiety attacks, usually for no apparent reason, for 27 years. I've been clear of the actual full-on attacks for 8 years now, but since LC the always-present state of hyper-alert and instant ability to feel fearful have eased so much. Wouldn't that be a case for saying that LC - well, keto in my case - is not elevating my cortisol?0
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@GrannyMayOz, you might be correct but i'm thinking that it could simply be due to sugar stabilization. My mom has always suffered from anxiety attacks and can't really handle life, period. (She is carb addicted, obese, diabetic, and now has heart disease.) That is fantastic that you are experiencing a peace/calm these days!
@Wabmester, you say you follow a moderate carb WOE, may i ask what your counts generally are? 50-100g? Just curious and do you still loose at that amount or are you at maintenance?
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I stay under 20g of carbs. I feel great. I have had great success in losing weight and it is very rare that I get a craving for anything sweet and when I do get that craving, I find something low carb to fix it.0
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OP, I think carb thresholds are highly individual and that it can be changed with diet/lifestyle. You'll have to experiment to find YOUR levels.
IMO in general some of the discussions about carb levels are confused, because they mash together carb effect on FA, NK, satiety and cravings all together. For ME, those are separate issues.
I've increased my tolerance yet again. I can now eat 150 g net carbs without it affecting FA. Ofc I'm kicked out of NK temporarily. But I also sometimes practice strategic nutrient timing eating carbs around exercise. HOWEVER, I feel best at somewhere around 50-70 g net carbs. Just because I CAN eat more carbs, doesn't mean I SHOULD. I've noticed that the more carbs I eat, the more hungry I feel and can stuff myself more. Ie. the classic peckish mood. When I keep my carbs low, I feel fuller on a lower kcal intake.
I've also noticed a difference in what types of carbs. Even lowcarb sweet desserts, like my homemade keto icecream, invariably make me want to eat even more. Like there's no "full switch".
Ty @wabmester for providing additional info and links
Edit: I think we should have tolerance for the fact that our bodies and lives are very different. I understand that someone else's experience may differ a great deal from MY experiences.0 -
GrannyMayOz wrote: »I don't know if this has any bearing whatsoever but I know that I feel calmer than I ever have on this WOE. I've often said that I'm allergic to adrenalin. My anxiety reactions are way beyond 'normal' and I suffered the most debilitating anxiety attacks, usually for no apparent reason, for 27 years. I've been clear of the actual full-on attacks for 8 years now, but since LC the always-present state of hyper-alert and instant ability to feel fearful have eased so much. Wouldn't that be a case for saying that LC - well, keto in my case - is not elevating my cortisol?
I also feel the calming effects. I think that may be the ketones and/or their effects on neurotransmitters -- probably similar to the effects on epileptics. You don't need very low carbs to make ketones (50-100g/d should make plenty).
Cortisol doesn't act like adrenaline. Long-term, high levels of cortisol do seem to affect mood and memory.TribalmamaEmily wrote: »@Wabmester, you say you follow a moderate carb WOE, may i ask what your counts generally are? 50-100g? Just curious and do you still loose at that amount or are you at maintenance?
I haven't been logging this month, but I targeted 100g/d before the no-logging kick. I would have side-effects I didn't like if I kept the levels under 50g/d for even 1-2 days. The funny taste in my mouth, light-headedness, stuff like that. So, I would usually increase my carb intake the following day to feel "normal" again.
And, yes, I lost weight and still lose weight (at a slow pace) even with no attempt at maintaining a calorie deficit.
For me personally, LC even at these fairly high levels seems to have a huge effect on my sense of satiety. I can eat 3 eggs in the morning, and I'm often good till dinner.
I do still have to avoid carbs that trigger my cravings (like chocolate-drizzled popcorn!), but I can easily eat 100g/d without eating any types of carbs that trigger cravings for me. As I said before, at that level, I think it's the quality of carb that matters more than the quantity.
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I know at one point in the past I must have reduced sugar because I remember eating something sweet one evening and as I ate I could feel my anxiety levels growing. There were no circumstances or thoughts inducing the anxiety, it was just arriving for absolutely no reason at all; presumably other than the effects of the sugar.TribalmamaEmily wrote: »@GrannyMayOz, you might be correct but i'm thinking that it could simply be due to sugar stabilization. My mom has always suffered from anxiety attacks and can't really handle life, period. (She is carb addicted, obese, diabetic, and now has heart disease.) That is fantastic that you are experiencing a peace/calm these days!
@Wabmester Thank you for your thoughts and clarifications. I aim for 0 - 20 total grams of carbs per day. Have only exceeded that twice since 14th March, yet my morning blood ketone readings are usually 0.7 to (at best) 1.1 so I'm only just truly ketotic. And that's fine but, for me, I doubt I can go much higher on the carbs and stay in ketosis. Not yet anyway, and I'll experiment with that another day after I'm at maintenance. I like your discussion topics, they're very interesting.
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GMO, ketone readings are WAY overrated. If your level is greater than zero, you are making and utilizing ketones. The more you adapt, the more you utilize. The more you utilize, the lower your blood/urine levels.0
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I thought the blood reading had to be 0.5 or above to be in ketosis?0
