Questions without Answers
wabmester
Posts: 2,748 Member
Got any questions about low-carb or ketogenic diets that still bug you after much research? Post 'em here!
I've got a bunch of 'em.
Q: Does ketosis have any effect on weight loss, and if so, how?
I've tried to find the answer, and the closest I can come is that ketosis seems to reduce a hunger hormone (ghrelin). Let me know if you have a better answer!
Here's a study I read today:
A Randomized Trial Comparing a Very Low Carbohydrate Diet and a Calorie-Restricted Low Fat Diet on Body Weight and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in Healthy Women
Pretty good study. 53 obese women randomly selected for a calorie-restricted low-fat or an ad-libitum very-low-carb diet.
The VLC diet killed it in terms of weight loss! The VLC subjects lost more in the first couple weeks, and the gap widened as the 6-month experiment went on.
The VLC diet did reduce hunger for sure. The VLC subjects ate at about the same calorie deficit (400 kcal) as the low-fat group, but they did it with no restrictions!
Here are some interesting points to me:
1) The VLC group lost more weight with the same deficit
2) The VLC were only in ketosis for the first 3 months, and the gap in the loss increased when they went out of ketosis and increased their carb intake from 41g to about 97g!
3) The researches found NO CORRELATION between ketosis and weight loss!
The mechanism of the enhanced weight loss in the very
low carbohydrate diet group relative to the low fat diet group
is not clear. Based on dietary records, the reduction in daily
caloric intake was similar in the two groups. For the greater
weight loss in the very low carbohydrate group to be strictly
a result of decreased caloric consumption, they would have
had to consume approximately 300 fewer calories/d over the
first 3 months relative to the low fat diet group
The researchers were at a loss to explain their results. Can you solve the puzzle?
If the answer isn't ketones, then what? Protein? Insulin? What!?
I've got a bunch of 'em.
Q: Does ketosis have any effect on weight loss, and if so, how?
I've tried to find the answer, and the closest I can come is that ketosis seems to reduce a hunger hormone (ghrelin). Let me know if you have a better answer!
Here's a study I read today:
A Randomized Trial Comparing a Very Low Carbohydrate Diet and a Calorie-Restricted Low Fat Diet on Body Weight and Cardiovascular Risk Factors in Healthy Women
Pretty good study. 53 obese women randomly selected for a calorie-restricted low-fat or an ad-libitum very-low-carb diet.
The VLC diet killed it in terms of weight loss! The VLC subjects lost more in the first couple weeks, and the gap widened as the 6-month experiment went on.
The VLC diet did reduce hunger for sure. The VLC subjects ate at about the same calorie deficit (400 kcal) as the low-fat group, but they did it with no restrictions!
Here are some interesting points to me:
1) The VLC group lost more weight with the same deficit
2) The VLC were only in ketosis for the first 3 months, and the gap in the loss increased when they went out of ketosis and increased their carb intake from 41g to about 97g!
3) The researches found NO CORRELATION between ketosis and weight loss!
The mechanism of the enhanced weight loss in the very
low carbohydrate diet group relative to the low fat diet group
is not clear. Based on dietary records, the reduction in daily
caloric intake was similar in the two groups. For the greater
weight loss in the very low carbohydrate group to be strictly
a result of decreased caloric consumption, they would have
had to consume approximately 300 fewer calories/d over the
first 3 months relative to the low fat diet group
The researchers were at a loss to explain their results. Can you solve the puzzle?
If the answer isn't ketones, then what? Protein? Insulin? What!?
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Replies
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I do often wonder if less than 100g carbs is enough to get the bulk of the benefits or if ketogenic is necessary or provides additional benefits.
I hate to think I'm not doing everything I can by not staying keto all the time, but I haven't seen anything that says it's absolutely necessary.0 -
I'm completely comfortable with my 20ish grams. I'm not missing anything. Not having cravings. So I don't have any plans to increase it at goal weight. At the moment, I am happy with my diet and it's working beautifully for me.
What do they say? "Don't fix it if it ain't broke"? Lol
I can't think of any questions that have been in my thoughts. But if I do, I'll come post it.0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I'm completely comfortable with my 20ish grams. I'm not missing anything. Not having cravings. So I don't have any plans to increase it at goal weight. At the moment, I am happy with my diet and it's working beautifully for me.
What do they say? "Don't fix it if it ain't broke"? Lol
Agree 100%. The number that matters is the one that works for you.auntstephie321 wrote: »I do often wonder if less than 100g carbs is enough to get the bulk of the benefits or if ketogenic is necessary or provides additional benefits.
I hate to think I'm not doing everything I can by not staying keto all the time, but I haven't seen anything that says it's absolutely necessary.
In terms of weight loss, the answer seems to be that it doesn't matter. But in terms of other health markers, it might. Volek did that dose-response study that clearly showed that the lower your carb intake, the lower your blood triglyceride level, for example.
The other reason to stay in ketosis is for "fat adaptation." I have a bunch of questions about that, too. But for athletes and exercise fanatics, it seems to be a good thing to shoot for. At least for a month or so.
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I'm completely comfortable with my 20ish grams. I'm not missing anything. Not having cravings. So I don't have any plans to increase it at goal weight. At the moment, I am happy with my diet and it's working beautifully for me.
What do they say? "Don't fix it if it ain't broke"? Lol
I can't think of any questions that have been in my thoughts. But if I do, I'll come post it.
I'll 2nd that. My maintenance macros will stay the same, just more lovely calories
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I did fat adaptation so that I didn't have to stress about long periods without food. Seems to have helped with my case, so I'm good.0
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sweetteadrinker2 wrote: »I did fat adaptation so that I didn't have to stress about long periods without food. Seems to have helped with my case, so I'm good.
Oh, that reminds me of another unanswerable question!
We all agree that low-carb reduces hunger, right? Even during ketosis, fasting, and long bouts of exercise.
What's the evolutionary advantage of reduced hunger?
Maybe the question is more easily answered reframed as "why do carbs increase hunger?"
One theory is that carbs increase hunger because they used to be a relatively rare treat, so we'd pig out on them to refill glycogen stores and stock up on fat storage whenever we happened upon them.
So maybe low-carb doesn't reduce hunger. Maybe this is normal, and the increased hunger with carb intake is the special case! 0 -
@wabmester I do think that the feeling of reduced hunger is normal and how we are suppose to feel. Your theory makes sense though I don't know if there is any way to know for sure if that's why our bodies feel more hunger when ingest more carbs.
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"Based on dietary records, the reduction in daily caloric intake was similar in the two groups."
I think the low fat group was hungry and unconsciously eating more or the low carb dieters were over reporting -- even though the study authors think that's unlikely I don't agree. Their only reason for discounting logging errors seems to be based on their belief that equally fat people lied the same so it was a wash...
"Although the inaccuracy of dietary records for obese individuals is well documented (31, 32), it seems unlikely that a systematic discrepancy of this magnitude occurred between groups of subjects who were comparably overweight."
That's just based on my own personal experience though -- I lose the same whether I eat low carb or not. But I also think a forced deficit impacts your REE to some degree (freezing on a low calorie diet but I'm perfectly comfortable at the same calorie level eating low carb) and NEAT is probably impacted as well so... who knows? lol I'm looking forward to seeing the results from the research NuSi is funding. Like the Energy Balance Consortium trial; I hope it's rigorous enough to answer some of these questions.
Fascinating stuff at any rate! Thanks for posting, wabmester. 0 -
I don't think we're supposed to be hungry all the time. I think what we call "reduced hunger" is better thought of as hunger returning to normal and healthy levels. One of the saddest things I've heard was when the health teacher at my school told me, in response to the fact that I am never hungry, that she was always hungry. It doesn't matter how much she eats, and she loads up on the "healthy" and "filling" foods. She is always "starving."0
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I don't think we're supposed to be hungry all the time. I think what we call "reduced hunger" is better thought of as hunger returning to normal and healthy levels.
I couldn't agree more. That's exactly what low carb does for me. Without it I'm food obsessed and no amount of food is ever really enough... my appetite is insatiable. With it, it's like I'm a kid again and my Mom has to call me in to eat. I get hungry, I eat until I'm full and satisfied (and I very much enjoy my food) but then I'm done and uninterested in food until I get hungry again. It's still pretty miraculous to me even after all this time.0 -
My questions is: What does maintenance look like?0
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I've got one. What is the neagtive aspects of being keto long term? I'm wondering about 10-20 years from now.... if I'm still doing it.0
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My questions is: What does maintenance look like?
I was just reading a study today that addressed that question by looking at the effects of a ketogenic diet on normal-weight subjects. I'll see if I can find it, but if you're asking what you'll look like when you're on maintenance, I have no idea.nvsmomketo wrote: »I've got one. What is the neagtive aspects of being keto long term? I'm wondering about 10-20 years from now.... if I'm still doing it.
A few studies have looked at this, and it depends on how you implement keto. Obviously replenishing electrolytes is one of the keys, but so is micronutrient intake, the type of fat you eat, etc. I think both Phinney and Volek have been keto for MANY years with no adverse effects.
This review covers some of the "potentially adverse effects":
http://www.vladozlatos.com/project/files/pages/586/a-review-of-low-carbohydrate-ketogenic-diets.pdf0 -
Can a VLC diet help with rheumatoid arthritis?
How come it doesn't kill MY hunger?0 -
Are there any effects (studies/anecdotes/everything) of VLCHF/Keto on Fibromyalgia?0
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I don't think we're supposed to be hungry all the time. I think what we call "reduced hunger" is better thought of as hunger returning to normal and healthy levels. One of the saddest things I've heard was when the health teacher at my school told me, in response to the fact that I am never hungry, that she was always hungry. It doesn't matter how much she eats, and she loads up on the "healthy" and "filling" foods. She is always "starving."
I feel the same. Always starving. Always hungry. I drink tons of water. I can't find the answer as to why I am. Even if my belly is full I feel hungry. My body must release the hunger hormone in overdrive or something.0 -
sweetteadrinker2 wrote: »I did fat adaptation so that I didn't have to stress about long periods without food. Seems to have helped with my case, so I'm good.
Oh, that reminds me of another unanswerable question!
We all agree that low-carb reduces hunger, right? Even during ketosis, fasting, and long bouts of exercise.
What's the evolutionary advantage of reduced hunger?
Maybe the question is more easily answered reframed as "why do carbs increase hunger?"
One theory is that carbs increase hunger because they used to be a relatively rare treat, so we'd pig out on them to refill glycogen stores and stock up on fat storage whenever we happened upon them.
So maybe low-carb doesn't reduce hunger. Maybe this is normal, and the increased hunger with carb intake is the special case!
Perhaps carbs increase hunger due to seasonal changes-- grains, rice, fruit and tubers are ready to eat in the fall, at a time when animals are putting up stores for winter...0 -
Can a VLC diet help with rheumatoid arthritis?
People in this forum have said it helps reduce pain, so I looked at a study a while back. From what I remember, the study found that fasting did help, but a ketogenic diet (which sort of mimics fasting) did not. So the nutrients apparently matter.
A quick google found this:
https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/health-science/featured-articles/articles/diet-only-hope-for-arthritis/
Fasting is known to decrease intestinal permeability, thus making the gut “less leaky.” This may be one of the reasons fasting has been shown to dramatically benefit patients with rheumatoid arthritis (Scand J Rheumatol 1982;11(1):33-38). When patients return after the fast to a diet with dairy products, the gut becomes more permeable and the arthritis returns. An unhealthy diet containing dairy and other animal products causes inflammation of the intestinal surfaces and thereby increases the passage of dietary and/or bacterial antigens (Br J Rheumatol 33:638, 1994). A vegan diet (one with no animal products) has been found to change the fecal microbial flora in rheumatoid arthritis patients, and these changes in the fecal flora are associated with improvement in the arthritis activity (Br J Rheumatol 36:64, 1997).
McDougall is a famous vegetarian diet guy, so I would look for a second opinion.
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I am hearing the "always hungry" stories. Might I ask how much protein you are eating - this could be limitless if you are w/o bread, dairy fruit? How much fat? This too could be limitless. Sometimes at night, I will have some coconut oil if I feel peckish.0
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glossbones wrote: »Are there any effects (studies/anecdotes/everything) of VLCHF/Keto on Fibromyalgia?
I've had fibromyalgia for at least 15 years. My level of pain is much improved on keto. I no longer have days that I feel so awful that I have to stay in bed. My activity level has improved, and as I lose weight I expect it to get even better. Keto definitely impacts fibromyalgia for the better!0 -
A n=1 observation: while we were shopping last week my wife asked me about the status of our Tylenol supply. I had no idea. Thinking about it I realized I could not remember taking a pain reliever, decongestant, antihistamine, or even a cough drop over the past 6-7 months. That's not normal for an old guy going through a harsh winter with constant exposure to young kids.0
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This is a great thread. Thanks!0
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A few studies have looked at this, and it depends on how you implement keto. Obviously replenishing electrolytes is one of the keys, but so is micronutrient intake, the type of fat you eat, etc. I think both Phinney and Volek have been keto for MANY years with no adverse effects.
This review covers some of the "potentially adverse effects":
http://www.vladozlatos.com/project/files/pages/586/a-review-of-low-carbohydrate-ketogenic-diets.pdf
Thanks!Can a VLC diet help with rheumatoid arthritis?
A large portion of the reason I went keto was to help with autoimmune problems (sugar = inflammation = more AI problems) and to help with arthritis. It's helping a bit already. I'm hoping for more as time goes on.0 -
Fat adapted here
Just did a very long ride. 2300 calories and 2 hours pushing it
I was very thirsty, not hungry. I will eat because I need to get my calories
But I'm not going to bonk like in the old carb burner days
It works0 -
lots of good information here! I have been on LCHP diet forever, I think. I am 64 and not much body fat. I have noticed that my weight really creep up in 2014 after 6 months of RV travel. I am having a very hard time getting Ketosis going again. Do you think I have just over dieted or should I just hang in there? I am never hungry but make myself eat 3 times a day with a 3 and 9 o'clock protein snack. Any help for this old gal would be appreciated!
Linda0 -
Yes, this is what I meant
I think this was the study:
A ketogenic diet favorably affects serum biomarkers for cardiovascular disease in normal-weight men.
Basically, health markers improved in normal-weight subjects. So even in maintenance, a ketogenic diet is still good for you.
To our knowledge this is the first study to document the effects of a ketogenic diet on fasting and postprandial CVD biomarkers independent of weight loss. The results suggest that a short-term ketogenic diet does not have a deleterious effect on CVD risk profile and may improve the lipid disorders characteristic of atherogenic dyslipidemia.0 -
professionalHobbyist wrote: »Fat adapted here
Just did a very long ride. 2300 calories and 2 hours pushing it
I was very thirsty, not hungry. I will eat because I need to get my calories
But I'm not going to bonk like in the old carb burner days
It works
This fascinates me!0 -
lots of good information here! I have been on LCHP diet forever, I think. I am 64 and not much body fat. I have noticed that my weight really creep up in 2014 after 6 months of RV travel. I am having a very hard time getting Ketosis going again. Do you think I have just over dieted or should I just hang in there? I am never hungry but make myself eat 3 times a day with a 3 and 9 o'clock protein snack. Any help for this old gal would be appreciated!
Linda
Hi Linda,
What are your macros, calories & statistics (height/weight)? And what are your goals?
If you want to get into ketosis you need to set you macros to 20g carbs, maximum. Are you eating more than this? However, when i 1st started keto it still took me forever to get into ketosis. Ive heard several people also say they got into ketosis quickly 1st time round, but after a carby break it took them a lot longer to get back into ketosis. I would definitely stick with it. Stay below 20g carbs, keep your protein between 0.6g-0.8g per pound of bodyweight, and your fat is the rest.
Good luck.
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »professionalHobbyist wrote: »Fat adapted here
Just did a very long ride. 2300 calories and 2 hours pushing it
I was very thirsty, not hungry. I will eat because I need to get my calories
But I'm not going to bonk like in the old carb burner days
It works
This fascinates me!
I put up a thread that is recording the workouts and results
If you want to ask a specific question you can message me or post in there
Wab, our wonderful friend in the LC forum gave me the summarizing thoughts to put it all together
But it is an all the way thing. If you do the long duration exercise with carbs in your system you won't "force" the fat as fuel adaptation as quick
I think some diet in a Keto state long and hard and get there. I'm just forcing it and doing some body recomp.
It is just interesting to see what I can make an over 50 body look like.
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