Trail (and street) shoe choices: Zero Drop A Touch More Cushion Than Minimal?
mwyvr
Posts: 1,883 Member
For years I ran in stability or motion control shoes until discovering minimalist shoes helped me develop a more regular forefoot landing, and the bigger toe box in same lends increased stability naturally through my toes. In short, I'm a convert and look only for neutral shoes with big toe boxes now.
I'm looking for some advice on shoes to try next.
Most of my miles these days are put on minimalist Merrell Bare Access street and trail shoes and I've had nothing but good experiences with them. While I'm not looking to divorce myself completely from this more minimal "bare" style of shoe, I feel I need a but more cushion especially for longer more punishing trail runs... or as a take-it-easy shoe for the day after!
I'm looking for a trail shoe that meets the following criteria:
- has a large toe box. I like having room to splay my toes and find the traditional fit shoes feel awful now. Splaying toes really helps add stability on the trails and on the roads makes my forefoot landing more regular.
- neutral. More minimal shoes with big toe boxes have proven to me I simply do not need stability shoes.
- has zero, or very low, heel to toe drop.
- has a bit of protection against toe stubbing rocks when I'm clumsy
- trends towards minimal but has a bit of cushioning for longer, punishing, runs. I find on longer runs through tough rocky technical trails (common here) or lots of steep downhill on rocky trails (very common) my feet get pretty beat up and bruised feeling. It'd be nice to have another trail shoe with a bit more oomph (but not Hoka style platforms!) for those looong and rougher trail runs, or for the next day(s) of recovery running.
Ideally the shoe also:
- is very well built and durable; I've been impressed with the Merrells in this regard
- drains quickly after running through creeks
- is designed to be run bare-style (sock-less) but this isn't absolutely mandatory
- makes me faster by 25% without trying
Any thoughts?
PS: While I'm mostly looking for a trail shoe here, I think I'd like to add a street shoe with similar characteristics (minus the trail features) - essentially something like the Merrell Bare Access 4 (street) that I have but with a bit more cushion for longer (20 - 30km+) runs OR to run in the day after a gruelling run when a bit more oomph would be appreciated.
I don't find my feet feel unusually tired after a city run in the minimalist BA4's but having a mix is nice.
Mike, Vancouver BC
I'm looking for some advice on shoes to try next.
Most of my miles these days are put on minimalist Merrell Bare Access street and trail shoes and I've had nothing but good experiences with them. While I'm not looking to divorce myself completely from this more minimal "bare" style of shoe, I feel I need a but more cushion especially for longer more punishing trail runs... or as a take-it-easy shoe for the day after!
I'm looking for a trail shoe that meets the following criteria:
- has a large toe box. I like having room to splay my toes and find the traditional fit shoes feel awful now. Splaying toes really helps add stability on the trails and on the roads makes my forefoot landing more regular.
- neutral. More minimal shoes with big toe boxes have proven to me I simply do not need stability shoes.
- has zero, or very low, heel to toe drop.
- has a bit of protection against toe stubbing rocks when I'm clumsy
- trends towards minimal but has a bit of cushioning for longer, punishing, runs. I find on longer runs through tough rocky technical trails (common here) or lots of steep downhill on rocky trails (very common) my feet get pretty beat up and bruised feeling. It'd be nice to have another trail shoe with a bit more oomph (but not Hoka style platforms!) for those looong and rougher trail runs, or for the next day(s) of recovery running.
Ideally the shoe also:
- is very well built and durable; I've been impressed with the Merrells in this regard
- drains quickly after running through creeks
- is designed to be run bare-style (sock-less) but this isn't absolutely mandatory
- makes me faster by 25% without trying
Any thoughts?
PS: While I'm mostly looking for a trail shoe here, I think I'd like to add a street shoe with similar characteristics (minus the trail features) - essentially something like the Merrell Bare Access 4 (street) that I have but with a bit more cushion for longer (20 - 30km+) runs OR to run in the day after a gruelling run when a bit more oomph would be appreciated.
I don't find my feet feel unusually tired after a city run in the minimalist BA4's but having a mix is nice.
Mike, Vancouver BC
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Have you checked out Ultras? They definitely offer the wider toe box and zero drop with a bit of cushion.0
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Sounds like you have my feet.
I got nothing for you. I stick with my Altra Zero Drops and I have another pair of Altra's as well -- don't remember what they are called.
I am interested to hear what people can tell you. Thanks for this.0 -
tkillion810 wrote: »Have you checked out Ultras? They definitely offer the wider toe box and zero drop with a bit of cushion.
@tkillion810 Do you mean the Merrell BA Ultras? If so, no, not had an opportunity to check these yet.
@tufel Altra certainly is one I should look at.
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Saucony has a trail shoe based on the kinvara--I forgot the name though!0
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Are you thinking of the Saucony Peregrine? I've got some of those and they're pretty good, though I have wide feet too and prefer the Inov8 Roclite 243 for trails (and icy roads) as they have a bigger toebox. I think Inov8 also do minimalist road shoes though I haven't tried them.0
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The Inov-8 road shoes are all low drop but don't have much stack height.
I've been looking at the Trail Ultra 270 over the winter at some point in advance of marathon training early in the year. Three mil drop.0 -
Oh, forgot about the cushioning - in road shoes I like New Balance 890s and have had about 5 pairs so far.0
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Altra Superior for the trail shoe, maybe Altra One for the road.
I love my Inov-8's but they aren't for wide feet IMO0 -
My feet are on the wide side of normal. Big toe box pretty much a must based on how much I've enjoyed the last 600km in such shoes.
I wonder if these would work (sad to say I remember lusting after a pair of these in the 1970s in high school but my folks thought Northstar was the answer to everything, ouch).
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I had good luck with New Balance Trail Minimus. I switched to Merrell Trail Vapor for my last purchase for price reasons (I get what's on sale). The NB have a stiffer sole and more cushion than the trail vapor, though not much. A very wide toe box. If you like the trail minimus, they also have a road minimus I believe.0
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I might try one of the slightly beefier Merrells too; have been very happy with the Bare Access models.
Preferring to buy local has one advantage - limits what I can choose from, we don't have access to every brand under the sun here in Vancouver. Time for a road trip soon...0 -
I LOVE my Altra's (Trail & street shoes)!
Another brand to check out would be Merril.0 -
@KyleB65 Thanks for that - Merrells and I are good friends already - I've put 500km on my Merrell Bare Access Trail and Bare Access 4 (street) shoes in the last couple months and like them very much. They seem to be on my feet more than my other shoes.
I started this thread because I was feeling a bit bruised up after a punishing downhill trail run on a really rocky trail (BA Trails) but honestly... I might have felt the same in most shoes. It was just one of those runs.
So... refining what I'm looking for is probably a somewhatmore protective trail shoe than the minimalist Merrell BA Trail that isn't so cushioned as to lose feedback from the trail. I like that connection to the ground, and I trip less. It'd be nice if such a shoe also had a lug pattern that works in mud. In a nutshell:
- low drop (4-6mm or less, zero is great)
- neutral
- not overly narrow, I don't have super wide feet but they aren't narrow
- more cushion than a minimal Merrell Bare Access, but not so much stack height that trail feel is deadened
- flexible rather than stiff, I like this
- comfortable toe box allowing for toe splay
- Sole/lug pattern known to work well when trails get wet
- Bonus if seamless inside, comfortable without (and with) socks
As for street shoes, after thinking about this some more and remembering what season is coming up, what I'm really looking for is a durable but relatively lightweight distance trainer that I'd be happy to race in. Again I'm looking for more cushion than my minimalist shoes but not pillow-esque, robbing street feedback. As the weather changes some of my mountain runs will become inaccessible and I'll be doing a lot more street or hard packed urban trail running. I'm a midfoot/forefoot lander.
- low drop (4-6mm or less, zero even better)
- neutral
- not overly narrow, I don't have super wide feet but they aren't narrow
- more cushion than minimalist shoes like the Merrell BA4 but not pillow-esque
- flexible rather than stiff I like this
- not heavy; I'll probably want to "race" in these too and regardless have come to like a lighter shoe
- comfortable toe box allowing for toe splay unlike some Nike and Asics I've run in over the last year
- durable and suitable for higher mileage training, for the next five months or so I'll be on streets a lot more than I have been so far this year
I'll still run in the Merrell BA4 street shoes - no issues at all with them - but would like to have a slightly more cushioned shoe to alternate, sometimes for a long run, or sometimes because of a long run! ;-)
I like to shop locally and have found local supply for shoes ranging from the big names like Nike, Asics, Saucony, Brooks, New Balance, and Adidas to somewhat more specialized makers like Inov8, Newton, Hoka, Altra, Merrell, Mizuno, La Sportiva (trail) and Salomon.
Hmnn. Think I'll print this out and go on a road trip around town... maybe leave my wallet behind until I've tried a bunch.0 -
With all the Stores in yvr - you have to do a road trip?Preferring to buy local has one advantage - limits what I can choose from, we don't have access to every brand under the sun here in Vancouver. Time for a road trip soon...
In my home town all I have is Marks Work Wearhouse
, Cdn Tire 
, WalMart 
and a local store that has Formal Wear. So everything for running requires a 2 or 5 hour road trip ( one way ) to hit Walk, Run and more, Running Room etc. So when I find a shoe that works on me, next road trip I do a Multi Pair Bulk Buy. That's why there are 4 Mizuno's and 3 Sauconys in my closet with 10 km test runs on them. Definitely looking for some "Bush Trail " Shoes so I will continue to lurk on this topic.
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LOL I meant running-shop-hopping. Yes, we have a lot of stores, but many carry the same selection. I did discover a shop that is not far from me that has a more eclectic mix of running footwear including trail wear.
While I still haven't decided upon a slightly beefier trail shoe (than my Merrell Bare Access Trails), I did pick up a "city" trainer.
I'd been looking at the Saucony Kinvara 6 and a couple of New Balance models and ended up choosing the NB Vazee Pace (neutral, 6mm drop, not overly cushioned, fairly responsive). Liking them and the difference in feel makes for a nice alternative to my minimalist street shoes. On Sunday I did a 33km run around town on the Vazee Paces; I'd only done one 16km run before in them, no issues on or after either run.0 -
I have the Saucony Ride. I like them. I've considered the Kinvara. I like that they are a little wider and have a larger toe box too. my foot does't feel choked up in them.0
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Saucony Kinvara? Not really a great shoe for trails, but it is a 4mm drop neutral shoe. I run in them sockless in triathlons without much issue up to 10k.0
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Saucony rep in our store last night promised us the kinvara 7 is a full makeover that brings the upper closer to the feel of older models and the sole gets a foam upgrade that both adds durability and lows the weight even more. I await that model! I can't wear the 6s, they are too small/tight on me and this is my favorite shoe. Luckily I still have 3 more pairs of 5s in the closet
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Ooh! Carrie - I have some of the 5s and I find those too tight on me compared to the 4s and 2s! Sounds like I need to skip the 6 and wait for the 7...0
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For years I ran in stability or motion control shoes until discovering minimalist shoes helped me develop a more regular forefoot landing, and the bigger toe box in same lends increased stability naturally through my toes. In short, I'm a convert and look only for neutral shoes with big toe boxes now.
Did it take you any time to get used to running in a minimalist shoe? I also have been wearing stability shoes for years. I thought I would see what all the hype was about and I tried a pair of Kinvaras and I do not like them at all. I have only worn them a few times for short runs, but i feel like my feet are flapping like a duck.0 -
I don't know if it meets any of all of your criteria, but I have a pair of Sketchers Ultra Go Runs for my trail runs. I haven't gone many trail runs, but the couple of times I used them, I had no complaints in them. For the price of them for a trail shoe, they are worth a look.0
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lporter229 wrote: »Did it take you any time to get used to running in a minimalist shoe?
From the don't do as I do department: I did not ease into using minimalist shoes slowly. Fortunately I did not suffer any adverse effects save for the first run (16km) where I developed blisters running sock-less. A strip of thin tape would have avoided this.
After that run I immediately put my Nike stability shoes on and went out for a 3km jaunt for kicks and it was like running on big pillows. Hated that feeling. Moral: Don't switch on the same run LOL.
What I found with zero drop more minimal shoes was that I was more aware of my foot falls and was able to bring up my cadence. I can do that in any shoe now but I still find it easier to zero in on 178 - 182 SPM in a less gushy shoe (like the Vazee Pace) even if they aren't "minimal"; maybe the meaningful common characteristic is they are more responsive.
I worried about having less protection but if anything I think my landings have become somewhat softer if that's possible. Whatever the case, 527km later, no issues.
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@Stoshew71 No experience with Sketchers but will give them a test if available locally.
@glevinso Agreed, the Kinvara would not be something I'd use for trails but I will certainly give them a test run for streets when the new model @Carrieendar mentions is available. When checking out street shoes recently narrowed the choice down to the Vazee Pace, another NB shoe that escapes me (Fresh foam something?), and the Kinvara but can't remember what it was that made me pick the Vazee Pace over the Kinvara this time around.
Lots of excellent shoes out there these days.
Still looking for a somewhat more protective low (or zero) drop roomy toe box trail shoe to complement the minimalist Merrell BA Trails I run in. 25km mountain race coming up soon, I'd better get a move on that or will run in what I have and hope the trails haven't degenerated totally yet.
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lporter229 wrote: »
. . . I also have been wearing stability shoes for years. I thought I would see what all the hype was about and I tried a pair of Kinvaras and I do not like them at all. I have only worn them a few times for short runs, but i feel like my feet are flapping like a duck.
I've been wearing Kinvaras for a year and a half now, and I like them for running. I've found that I can't use them as my go-to walking shoe after they're shot for running. I need something with more heel cushion to walk in, and have been happy with the rather pricey Asics 33-M for walking. I suspect that Kinvaras would not be a good shoe for heel strike runners; I am a ball-heel to midfoot strike runner. Hence, the minimal heel cushion doesn't bother me at all running.
When the snow flies, I'll spend more time in Saucony Peregrines. They're marketed as a trail shoe, but I've been happy with them on roads with packed snow or loose snow that is shallow enough to run in. I've also worn the Pergrines in two trail races, but I can't claim to have enough trail running experience to present a fair opinion of them as a trail shoe.0 -
@MobyCarp Thanks for pointing out the Peregrine. I noted one local review commenting on a not-so-tacky outsole which might be problematic on our local trails (lots of roots and rocks), but will check them out myself.0
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I didn't have much luck with the Kinvara's last year--too pillowy. But I like the Saucony FastTwitch I bought this spring. I also have a pair of Kinvara Trail, which I think are a discontinued line (I bought them on DSW), and have been great for running in snow and mud.
I've also had a few pairs of New Balance Minimus that I really liked. Nice wide (for me, at least) toe box.
These are all 4 mm drop.0 -
@MobyCarp Thanks for pointing out the Peregrine. I noted one local review commenting on a not-so-tacky outsole which might be problematic on our local trails (lots of roots and rocks), but will check them out myself.
I'm not nearly so experienced as you, but I got the Peregrines as my first trail shoes. They have good traction--although I've skidded down more than one gravel embankment I haven't face-planted in them yet. Which is saying something with my horrible balance. Oh--I have fallen, but not while running! I was *hiking* in them. And distracted by a dog who was sooooo cute. So it's not really the shoe's fault.
Anyway, they have a nice wide toe-box (similar to my Guide 8s, which fit *none* of your qualifications!) and are very comfortable. I do wear socks with them, but when I've run through water they've dried quickly.
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