Kidney Stones
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True, hydration is obviously a key factor, but those studies are still interesting since they show such a large increase in incidence. There are also studies that show correlation with dehydration (including climate and job-related factors), but AFAIK, nothing compares with the increased risk shown in those keto kids.0
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I thought too much protein was a possible cause of kidney stones? Not sure if that was mentioned0
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I'm halfway done with this adventure. I had my last meeting with my new best friend, the urologist. He went in early Friday morning to remove the stent. He also went in with a laser-equipped camera to zap the stone, but he found no stone!
That was a little disconcerting, but luckily (!?) I peed out sand a few hours later, so he apparently crushed the stone while he was fishing around inside of me.
The good news is that my kidney has healed from the back-pressure induced explosion.
The bad news is that I have a new stent to let things heal from this latest surgery. It should be removed next week, and then I can FINALLY get back to exercise.
At some point in the future, they may analyse the stone fragments I collected yesterday, and then they may do a 24-hour urine collection to determine how I might be forming these rocks. I'm really looking forward to that!
Since surgery was scheduled for early Friday morning, we left our small town and splurged on a hotel in the big city. Pretty fancy place. It even came with a dog bed and dog dishes.
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Glad to hear things came out OK! What a relief it will be to have it all behind you.0
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Glad one stent to go and you'll be done with your medical adventure! So happy things have gone well overall. Hope they can analyze the "sand" for you too! Good luck with removal of that last stent and getting back to your exercise routine!0
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Thanks for the well wishes! My biggest fear is that they'll figure out that the cause is all of the oxalate-rich stuff I eat like nuts, chocolate, and berries. I live on that stuff!
The guy in the next room was waiting for his surgery. They ask you to describe the procedure you're about to undergo just as a CYA. He answered "you're going to install high-speed internet cable." And the doc answered "correct, and we'll do it sometime between noon and 5pm." 1 -
Lol!0
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Thanks for the well wishes! My biggest fear is that they'll figure out that the cause is all of the oxalate-rich stuff I eat like nuts, chocolate, and berries. I live on that stuff!
I would go crazy without those things, too!The guy in the next room was waiting for his surgery. They ask you to describe the procedure you're about to undergo just as a CYA. He answered "you're going to install high-speed internet cable." And the doc answered "correct, and we'll do it sometime between noon and 5pm."
Too funny!
Best wishes for getting through the rest of this journey as painlessly as possible, Wab! Thanks for sharing your experience. I have to admit I'm a little nervous about the possibility of kidney stones on this WOE.
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Thanks for the well-wishes and entertainment.
I think ACV is probably as good as lemon juice. Evidence seems to point to citric acid binding to Ca as the factor more than effects on urine pH.
A natural health practitioner I went to recommended both of these for a variety of reasons. I had a kidney stone a year ago, at which time I abandoned attempting to eat paleo-style in favor of more meatless meals. Not sure it was that so much as dehydration. The same practitioner also recommended a homeopathic tincture called Stone Breaker, which I think worked because by the time I got a script for pain meds and flomax and had a scan, it had broken up (pain meds thankfully helped with passing the shards).
Ugh. So miserable. I'm sorry, and hope you don't have to experience it again!
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Sorry you had to go through this, @mountainrun73. Were you running at the time? If so, that would make three people on this thread who were running a lot while they were making stones.
I'm still waiting to hear back from the urologist about something he said to my wife after surgery. While he didn't find the stone, he did say that the stent he removed was "encrusted." This is fairly common for stents left in for a longer period -- the stent itself acts as a seed for crystal growth.
So that tells me I was still forming crystals for the last month or so. Why is that interesting?
Because I stopped running. I was drinking a lot of water. And I increased my carb intake to reduce ketone production and to reduce sodium losses so I could retain more water. I was also adding lemon and lime juice to my water to increase citric acid.
So I'm still prone to making stones even without ketosis, without exercise, and without dehydration. It's still a mystery to me, but this suggests that my stone experience was all about me and not about running or ketosis.0 -
@wabmester - I wasn't running at the time, though I was doing gym workouts (cardio and weights) 3-4 times a week, but it was also during the period that I started getting lazy, inconsistent, and giving into junk food addictions more often. So that may have had something to do with my experience.
I've read that Apple cider vinegar can help break down stones. Someone on another thread mentioned it as helpful for digestive issues. My natural health practitioner/advisor reminded me to start drinking a glass of warm water with lemon every morning. I have read that can help with stones, too, but it sounds like it hasn't in your case.
Ugh. Keep us posted!0 -
Does anyone having any actually experience/case studies of using something like Zeolite Pure from Zeo Health to help prevent kidney and gallbladder stones? That is the power form not the liquid types.0
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Time for an update!
Last week, I had stent #2 removed. I will spare you from the indignities and pain caused by that second stent, but it was a HUGE relief to get that thing out of me, and I started exercising again a couple days after that glorious event.
I submitted some stone fragments for analysis, and I just got the results:
Calcium Oxalate Dihydrate (Weddellite) 20% Calcium Oxalate Monohydrate (Whewellite) 80%
The fact that there was no uric acid in the stone suggests that neither protein intake nor increased protein catabolism were factors. Those are two factors often associated with a ketogenic diet, so it probably had nothing to do with ketosis.
What then? I'll go in for a metabolic work-up in a couple weeks, and that may shed some more light, but I'd guess that one factor was an increased oxalate intake.
To your body, oxalate is simply waste and it has to be excreted (assuming some oxalate-loving bacteria didn't find it first).
The biggest change in my diet was an increase in high-oxalate foods: berries, chocolate, and nuts. And my biggest increase in nut consumption was almonds.
Here's a good table of oxalate-containing foods:
http://www.wakehealth.edu/Urology/Kidney-Stones/Oxalate-Content-of-Foods.htm
I blame the chocolate and the almonds. I love that stuff, but I'm cutting back.
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Sounds like a plan, I hope it works!
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / The Recipe Water Fasting / E.A.S.Y. Exercise Program
Current weight: 198.5, 115.5 pounds down, 19.5 to go. 13 months on diet0 -
@wabmester if you are not on a high dosage of Vit K2 (both the 4 and 7 types) you may want to google it. K2 4/7 is what tells Calcium where to go I am reading.
The below is a so so link but you can google forward if it is of interest to you. I have been talking Life Extension's Super K with Advanced K2 Complex for a year now. After one stone a few years ago I do not want a repeat of that experience. We need our calcium in our bones and teeth instead of leaching out of our bones and teeth into our kidneys and brain leading to cancer, heart attack, stroke and worse.
articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/12/16/vitamin-k2.aspx0 -
@GaleHawkins, I haven't really looked at any supplements, but Potassium-Magnesium Citrate has been found to be VERY effective in reducing stone recurrence in stone-formers. 85% reduction!
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9366314
A lot of people here already supplement both Mg and K -- the citrate form is especially helpful because it alkalizes the urine.0 -
V made this comment in another thread -- I've moved it here where it belongs.Nephrolithiasis/kidney stones...ironically is an adverse drug reaction typical of many meds that cause metabolic acidosis, such as Topiramate, zonisamide, acetazolamide, etc. (not listing meds causing kidney stone that do NOT produce metabolic acidosis). There has got to be a correlation with metabolic acidosis obviously. I would speculate that the kidneys overcompensate for electrolyte losses to provoke kidney stones (I.e.kidneys absorb too much minerals due to how easily electrolytes are excreted while on keto).
I think you're right, but you probably need a lot of ketones over a long period. I think this might explain the high stone occurrence in kids who go on ketogenic diets for control of epileptic seizures. They also experienced calcium loss, presumably due to mild acidosis.
In my case, I was usually mildly ketotic, and I would intentionally increase carb intake periodically to avoid ketosis.0 -
In this instance, Vitamin K/K2 is NOT potassium, as it is on the periodic table. It's a separate thing. I know folks on blood thinners aren't supposed to have Vitamin K, but they are supposed to have potassium (in some cases). Just FYI.0
