Carbs - how low is too low?
MilllieMoo
Posts: 88 Member
I sometimes go below 10g net, is there any reason why this wouldn't be OK?
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Nope. If you're feeling good, all is well. I get as low and lower than that regularly. And there are the carnivores that are always below that, as close to zero as possible.0
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Carbohydrates are not an essential macronutrient, so you can go as low as you find works best for you and makes you feel the most amazing!0
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As long as you increase your protein a bit, it should be fine. Levels below 20g require more protein to be converted to glucose. The brain and red blood cells need about 40g a day.
If the protein doesn't come from the diet, it comes from your muscles.0 -
No such thing as too low carbs. A good target is 20 grams total, and I will occasionally hit 30.
Find your ideal protein range (sex and height) and spread that out over 3 meals if you can (hard to do because of decreased appetite).
Enough protein greatly improves satiety. (Go ahead, try and overeat protein - I dare you!)
Eat fat to satiety (increasing fat does not cause ketosis, lowering carbs does). If you are morbidly obese your ratios won't really matter much for the first 6 months as long as your carbs are low - the weight usually melts off. After that, weight loss slows, and you need to perhaps limit your fat grams so that you burn body fat - your body will burn its dietary fat first.
So - carbs first. Protein range second, which will stay the same always, both loss and maintenance. Then fat, which in weight loss you want to come from your body more than your plate, and in maintenance it comes from your plate.
And of course we are all somewhat different and there are many other factors.
Good luck!0 -
As a diabetic, I've found that I have to watch my protein intake. Last summer, during my second serious foray into LCHF, I was definitely overeating protein, which I realised in hindsight. Whilst I did lose weight and was able to reduce my insulin by half, now that I keep my protein under control (under 100g) I'm taking just 8% of my original insulin dosage.0
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Jimmy Moore just completed an interesting fasting experiment. I think he lost 20lbs in 30 days. He did a DXA scan and found it was 10lbs of fat and 10lbs of muscle that he lost.
Of course, that's with 0 carb as well as 0 protein intake, but it gives you an idea of how much muscle you can lose by restricting both too much.
100g protein should be more than enough for most people.0 -
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I aim for 0 grams of carbs, and routinely hit that. The few carbs I get are total (not net) and typically around 1-3 grams a day from eggs or cheese.
I'm fine. You don't need carbs.0 -
Agreed. Very low carb works really well for some. Go as low as you need.As long as you increase your protein a bit, it should be fine. Levels below 20g require more protein to be converted to glucose. The brain and red blood cells need about 40g a day.
If the protein doesn't come from the diet, it comes from your muscles.
What would be increased protein? I am curious because I am moving into a carnivorous diet for the next month or so. My protein is about 20%. About. I don't want to raise it as my FBG seems to be affected by higher protein (25+%).
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I forget the conversion ratio, but I think it was around 1.6g of protein to make 1g of glucose, so adding around 30g of protein beyond your "normal" requirement should ensure you can go to 0g carb without catabolizing muscle.
Going "carnivore" should give you plenty of protein -- no need to supplement. It's mostly an issue when fasting or doing the low-protein medical-style ketogenic diet.0 -
Thanks so much @wabmester !
My minimum protein is 55g. 30 more grams would put me at around 85g. I already eat around 70g per day (with 20g of carbs too) so bumping up to 85g isn't a huge leap. In the past, 90g would help raise my BG but I was also eating carbs so I may not have that issue this time.
Thanks again.0 -
@nvmomketo, your BG response to protein was due to T2D, right? You might be interested in this post:
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2016/02/insulin-glucagon-and-protein.html
He theorizes that it may not be GNG that causes the BG spike, but it's an unbalanced response to glucagon! Not that there'd be much of a difference except for timing, perhaps.0 -
@nvmomketo, your BG response to protein was due to T2D, right? You might be interested in this post:
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2016/02/insulin-glucagon-and-protein.html
He theorizes that it may not be GNG that causes the BG spike, but it's an unbalanced response to glucagon! Not that there'd be much of a difference except for timing, perhaps.
I found this a little confusing. It mentions beta cell damage in T2D, which we know is a result of a fatty pancreas, at least the way I understand it. But since that can be reversed, and the beta cell function restored, this glucagon/insulin imbalance would remedy itself in time. Everything here seems to suggest that this is just the way it is, and doesn't acknowledge the possibility of restored beta cell function. Maybe after a very long time of having the fatty pancreas the beta cells just cannot regain function even after the fat is gone... But, I would think that would be less common than it becoming restored. And from what I understand, it's the pancreatic fat, along with the liver fat, that tends to go first on low carb. That's why T2D's respond so quickly to it and are able to eliminate meds so often within about a months time.
So, my point is, wouldn't this glucagon/protein triggered theory be only temporary?
I don't know... Do you think there's something backward about my understanding? Or maybe my brain is suffering from my lack of MCT this week! Lol0 -
I think it can be more complicated than that. Not just ectopic fat, but can't the beta cells "burn out" due to constant over-demand due to insulin resistance? I think the mechanisms only recently became understood, but as it progresses, it may become more difficult to regress.0
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@nvmomketo, your BG response to protein was due to T2D, right? You might be interested in this post:
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/2016/02/insulin-glucagon-and-protein.html
He theorizes that it may not be GNG that causes the BG spike, but it's an unbalanced response to glucagon! Not that there'd be much of a difference except for timing, perhaps.
Interesting. I have to admit that I need to learn more. My understanding of this area is just half a step beyond basic.
Yes, my BG issues are from T2D although I am more prediabetic. I have a few autoimmune issues so T1D (LADA) is possible, but I doubt it.
My BG issues are usually FBG rises, and they aren't large, I am just a bit anal about it. For example, about 90 minutes after dinner (cheeseburger "pie") my BG was a lovely 4.3 (~77) but this morning it was 5.7 (~103). 5.7 is not high but it is slightly in prediabetic range so I dislike that. BG tends to fall throughout the day with some lesser increases after meals.
If I go lower calorie, my FBG elevations tend to go away.0 -
I think it can be more complicated than that. Not just ectopic fat, but can't the beta cells "burn out" due to constant over-demand due to insulin resistance? I think the mechanisms only recently became understood, but as it progresses, it may become more difficult to regress.
I have always had the understanding that they can "burn out", but I'm not sure that's accurate anymore. Who knows?!?! But even those that have been on insulin for decades have been able to reverse T2D so I am tending to think that's junk info we've always been told just like T2D is a progressive disease that you can only manage, at best, but not cure. I just don't believe that's true. It happens all too often with this woe. I think people are proving the previous science, or ideas really, wrong.
But even if it can happen that way, I think that's a long, long time with uncontrolled symptoms. So I still feel like it would be a rare thing and not the norm. At least if it is the norm, then it would resolve itself relatively quickly and the balance would start to get normal as sensitivity and insulin availability improved. At least, that's just what makes sense to me.
I will keep an eye out for signs as my daughter gets into Keto more. She definitely can't make insulin. Not a drop. And ain't nothing changing that anytime soon.0 -
When doctors started doing bariatric surgery to treat obesity, they were amazed that it also caused T2D to go into remission, and fast! Like in a week. The remission rate was reported as between 37-95%. So not 100%, but still a high rate.
They found the remission was associated with how long the patient had diabetes, how severe it was, and whether or not they were taking insulin.
A quick google suggests that one of the mechanisms of beta cell death may be the drugs used to treat T2D. That's sad.0 -
When doctors started doing bariatric surgery to treat obesity, they were amazed that it also caused T2D to go into remission, and fast! Like in a week. The remission rate was reported as between 37-95%. So not 100%, but still a high rate.
They found the remission was associated with how long the patient had diabetes, how severe it was, and whether or not they were taking insulin.
A quick google suggests that one of the mechanisms of beta cell death may be the drugs used to treat T2D. That's sad.
Geez! That is sad!
This Jason Fung video talks about this stuff. I'm sure you've seen it before. He does mention the surgery and quick remission, but I think he still mainly attributed it to lack of food (essentially fasting) and the first fat to go being that on the organs, which of course, is great since that's so damaging.
I don't know, his explanation makes tons of sense to me. I definitely believe there are many factors involved though. This one just seems like "the big one" to me.
Sorry to hijack your post OP. You never know where a conversation might go around here! Lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLhMVa_juzVPn7PWoU8JmRL6ZyMq_cIJgA&v=FcLoaVNQ3rc
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When doctors started doing bariatric surgery to treat obesity, they were amazed that it also caused T2D to go into remission, and fast! Like in a week. The remission rate was reported as between 37-95%. So not 100%, but still a high rate.
They found the remission was associated with how long the patient had diabetes, how severe it was, and whether or not they were taking insulin.
A quick google suggests that one of the mechanisms of beta cell death may be the drugs used to treat T2D. That's sad.
Most bariatric patients (based on the diets I've seen online from hospitals) end up on what's essentially a starvation diet (which is how they treated diabetes before modern pharmaceuticals became available) before and immediately after surgery, it's not necessarily LCHF, though the carbs do tend to be under 100g simply because the overall volume of food is so reduced. It looks like that is why they're getting a reversal/remission of diabetes as opposed to literally the surgery itself.
A big study is going on here in the UK right now on using a starvation diet program, I think it's 8 weeks in length. The calories are kept at about 700 with the objective of rapidly reducing the fat around the liver and pancreas. They've had good results so far with people being able to produce their own insulin after that initial reduction. They're in the process of ramping up the study to a larger group right now.
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/reversal.htm
I've been thinking about taking my calories down that low for a short period of time now that I'm on a LCHF diet, I think I could make it through now that I don't have the hunger and desire to eat. I still have 25 more units of insulin that I'd like to stop taking as I know it's inhibiting my weight loss.
I've been experimenting with IF to see how it affects my diabetes so that I can figure out the best way for me to cut the calories down that low. It's interesting to see that I get a strange spike mid-morning, whether I eat or not. And interestingly, I can now have a pretty decent size dinner (600-700 cals) and my blood sugar goes down lower after eating than it is during that mid-morning period. I think I'm going to start doing coffee in the morning (not BPC, just with my regular single cream) a small late afternoon snack (some meat & cheese and miso soup) and a 400-600 cal dinner.0 -
I assume the BG spike is due to cortisol, and cortisol levels seem to go up with calorie restriction, but a fast or extreme calorie restriction should work its magic on ectopic fat.
I am not a fan of Jimmy Moore, but he's working on a new book with Fung (Fasting Clarity), so he just did a 30-day fast as an N=1 experiment. Worth checking out. Even if just for the train wreck aspects. Muscle loss. High BG. And he seems to be in a bad mood.
I'd stick with LCHF unless you're in a big hurry.0 -
I assume the BG spike is due to cortisol, and cortisol levels seem to go up with calorie restriction, but a fast or extreme calorie restriction should work its magic on ectopic fat.
I am not a fan of Jimmy Moore, but he's working on a new book with Fung (Fasting Clarity), so he just did a 30-day fast as an N=1 experiment. Worth checking out. Even if just for the train wreck aspects. Muscle loss. High BG. And he seems to be in a bad mood.
I'd stick with LCHF unless you're in a big hurry.
I definitely think cortisol makes it spike. I think that's one reason there are so many posts about "why can't I lose weight? I'm exercising 6 days a week and only eating 900 calories". That's very stressful. Not to mention, who knows how much, or little sleep is involved too.
I'm working on getting more sleep. I have made a little progress and low and behold, I started losing weight again. I did also add exercise twice a week, weights, but I've only completed 3 workouts and it takes me a total of 20 minutes including wiping down and setting up each machine. So....
I haven't changed macros or calories at all. I haven't done any fasting or anything either.
I don't know it suddenly changed, but I think the extra 40 minutes a night (probably resulting in lower cortisol) I've been averaging has more to do with it than my 3 times on the machines at the gym.0 -
I assume the BG spike is due to cortisol, and cortisol levels seem to go up with calorie restriction, but a fast or extreme calorie restriction should work its magic on ectopic fat.
I am not a fan of Jimmy Moore, but he's working on a new book with Fung (Fasting Clarity), so he just did a 30-day fast as an N=1 experiment. Worth checking out. Even if just for the train wreck aspects. Muscle loss. High BG. And he seems to be in a bad mood.
I'd stick with LCHF unless you're in a big hurry.
Cortisol definitely spikes my BG, I've had some very stressful days over the last month and there is a clear line between those days and higher BG. Part of the reason I started experimenting with IF was to see if that made a difference between these mid-morning spikes. I was curious to see if it would still happen if I didn't eat in the morning. My total calorie consumption for the day hasn't changed yet though, I'm just eating more food in the remaining meals, so it's definitely not related to a calorie restriction.
Not in a big hurry to lose weight, that's not realistic as I have a long journey ahead of me with 100+ lbs to lose. Just eager to get off the insulin as it is a huge roadblock on my weight loss journey. I gained 60 lbs after I started taking it with no change in my eating habits. I'd be happy with a consistent 2 lbs a week, but I think I'm at the end of my initial weight loss burst, and I'm at the point that I've been stuck at before. Just want to push past this point for the first time in 8 yrs to give myself the motivation to keep plodding forward.0 -
My daughter encounters all sorts of things that cause blood sugar spikes. She can just get scared and have a big spike.
She was almost hit by a semi truck on the highway one day and that stressed her out so much, by the time she got to work she was feeling sick and her blood sugar was over 300, maybe higher I can't remember. She had a very difficult time getting it to come back down. It took pretty much the entire day and lots of insulin to get it under control.
Similar thing happens to her at scary movies and haunted houses. Just not as severe. Lol0
