Depressive Episodes

Syleyna
Syleyna Posts: 86 Member
Sorry if this is a bit deep, but between June and September 2015 I lost 16kg, going Keto from mid July. Everything was going amazingly until the 8 week mark, when I had an overwhelming urge to end my life. Nothing was wrong. Nothing had happened. I just wanted to die.
I understand the first advice is to see a doctor, but I am prone to depressive episodes and have been since the age of 9. I know how they work and how to deal with them, for the most part. They are gradual. It takes me weeks to get to the point where walking in front of a car even crosses my mind. That particular time, it happened overnight. After 3 days of this feeling I decided to step off the wagon for a night and indulged in chocolate and popcorn while seeing a movie with my husband. My mood improved, I got back on track the next day and all was well. Obviously I was doing something wrong. I fell off the wagon hard back in October and have gained all my weight back (bugger). I've been back on track for 3 weeks now, but I'd like to avoid well, wanting to die, this time around. All I could think of is maybe I needed to add more fat, but if anyone else has any suggestions or has experienced this I'd love to hear from you.

Replies

  • sammyliftsandeats
    sammyliftsandeats Posts: 2,421 Member
    Hi there,
    I don't have a lot to offer but I just wanted to say that you can find a lot of support in this community - ask whatever questions you can.

    How are you feeling this time around? Are you having the same kinds of thoughts?

    Were you feeling restricted by the first eight weeks? Like there were so many things you couldn't have and it was making you feel helpless? You said you felt better after having the popcorn and chocolate. Maybe it is a relationship with food you need to mend.

    Like I said, this community is really supportive and I hope you find what you're looking for.
  • FitToLead
    FitToLead Posts: 275 Member
    Hi Sylena,
    The neural networks of people with a history of depression have more possibility of emotional and physical triggers reactivating the depressive neurology than others. When it happens like that, so quickly, if there is not a psychological trigger, it is very likely a hormonal swing, or chemical trigger. Its pretty normal to reach for carbs and sugar and caffeine for energy and to stimulate all the happy hormones.
    The hard thing is that we then can get lost there, and not find our way back on track. In the past I've done that a lot myself.
  • BelleCakes2018
    BelleCakes2018 Posts: 568 Member
    I have dealt with depression all my life (serious depression) and I can genuinely say that out of all the meds I have taken and do still take, this way of eating has stablised my mood more than anything I have ever experienced.
    I DO eat a lot of fat - and I think the fat gives me the satisfaction from what I eat, and the low carbs have dramatically improved my irritability.. I am so much calmer!
    Having said that - we all need days where we need to "eat" something different and feeling better after the chocolate would make sense as chocolate has serious mood boosting benefits. In fact I am overdosing on chocolate at this very moment due to the time of the month, and I let myself because it does make a difference to how I feel.

    If something like that can be the difference for you too, there is NOTHING wrong with letting yourself have some every day. In fact - you sound like you really need to let yourself.

    Also as a side note - you could have also felt better just because you gave yourself a much needed break... husband, movie, and feel good foods could have all helped. So do it more often and incorporate it into your daily macros so you don't feel like you have fallen off the wagon again. Make including it a way of life.
  • KnitOrMiss
    KnitOrMiss Posts: 10,103 Member
    edited April 2016
    Syleyna wrote: »
    Sorry if this is a bit deep, but between June and September 2015 I lost 16kg, going Keto from mid July. Everything was going amazingly until the 8 week mark, when I had an overwhelming urge to end my life. Nothing was wrong. Nothing had happened. I just wanted to die.
    I understand the first advice is to see a doctor, but I am prone to depressive episodes and have been since the age of 9. I know how they work and how to deal with them, for the most part. They are gradual. It takes me weeks to get to the point where walking in front of a car even crosses my mind. That particular time, it happened overnight. After 3 days of this feeling I decided to step off the wagon for a night and indulged in chocolate and popcorn while seeing a movie with my husband. My mood improved, I got back on track the next day and all was well. Obviously I was doing something wrong. I fell off the wagon hard back in October and have gained all my weight back (bugger). I've been back on track for 3 weeks now, but I'd like to avoid well, wanting to die, this time around. All I could think of is maybe I needed to add more fat, but if anyone else has any suggestions or has experienced this I'd love to hear from you.

    It is medically documented that for some folks with clinical mental disorders that going to the extremes of a ketogenic diet (which while simplifying things for most of us can mechanically complicate things for the body for some folks via cortisol issues, etc.) may worsen these disorders, particularly with bipolar disorder, as it is affected by brain chemistry. It seems that in my independent and not necessarily balanced research, about 1/2 of folks with these disorders are helped - and about half are worsened, with a random sampling having no effect. It really is an individual thing.

    Personally, I would probably do a few weeks to get fat adapted and fully into keto, then find the upper limit of your threshold for carbs (increasing 5 carbs each week, on a set day, say week 1 is 20 carbs, week 2 is 25, week 3 is 30, etc. until you stop losing weight, then bump back down the 5 carbs to your "threshold." Don't be afraid to dose with fat or eat at maintenance calories during an episode, but also know that at anything under 100 grams of carbs, you will be producing ketones and getting most of the benefits of low carbing, so keto is not necessary for people who don't do well with it. You may do better at 50-75 grams of carbs - or you may need an anti-depressant while you adapt, there is no telling, and you should definitely engage a medical professional to help monitor you as you adjust...

    That all being said, please get a FULL thyroid panel worked up, @Syleyna. Something I learned this week, which frankly, shocked the heck out of me, is that thyroid dysfunction, with or without the autoimmune component of Hashimoto's, can actually emulate many mental disorders, including bipolar manic-depression, with it's volatile mood swings and all, while remaining resistant to most anti-psychotic and other mood medications since if the issues are thyroid triggered, those medications won't touch/treat the underlying issue... I would suggest someone who focuses on thyroid issues, mental issues, and/or a combination.... Good luck on this.
  • FitToLead
    FitToLead Posts: 275 Member
    Good on you KnitOrMiss. I just wrote on another thread about the impact of cortisol on us. I'm a clinical psychologist, and teach other psychologist about the impact of hormones, food, vit D, and things like thyroid function on mental health issues. I, like many of the pioneering Functional medicine and integrative medicine doctors who are experts in this field, got interested because of our own health and mental health concerns - like that mega drop you spoke of.

    Sorry, if I had a slide show up on the net somewhere I'd show it to you. .. And, it is true, less than 100gms carbs is lower than general population, and being really low carb can help weight loss, BUT, some of us need to pay more attention, up carbs, or more likely fats, on different days to keep mind stable.

    And, yes, if you have a functional medicine dr in your city, they can do some really clarifying blood tests that guide you well.
  • Foamroller
    Foamroller Posts: 1,041 Member
    Going low carb and physical activity almost every day helps me a lot. I can't have grains or very much sweet stuff, they put me in the black hole with no corners. I also eat lots of vegs and kimchi for the microbiome.

    No diet is for everyone, I sincerely hope you'll find something that works for you. Best wishes.
  • becwana
    becwana Posts: 157 Member
    KnitOrMiss wrote: »

    It is medically documented that for some folks with clinical mental disorders that going to the extremes of a ketogenic diet (which while simplifying things for most of us can mechanically complicate things for the body for some folks via cortisol issues, etc.) may worsen these disorders, particularly with bipolar disorder, as it is affected by brain chemistry. It seems that in my independent and not necessarily balanced research, about 1/2 of folks with these disorders are helped - and about half are worsened, with a random sampling having no effect. It really is an individual thing.

    Personally, I would probably do a few weeks to get fat adapted and fully into keto, then find the upper limit of your threshold for carbs (increasing 5 carbs each week, on a set day, say week 1 is 20 carbs, week 2 is 25, week 3 is 30, etc. until you stop losing weight, then bump back down the 5 carbs to your "threshold." Don't be afraid to dose with fat or eat at maintenance calories during an episode, but also know that at anything under 100 grams of carbs, you will be producing ketones and getting most of the benefits of low carbing, so keto is not necessary for people who don't do well with it. You may do better at 50-75 grams of carbs - or you may need an anti-depressant while you adapt, there is no telling, and you should definitely engage a medical professional to help monitor you as you adjust...

    That all being said, please get a FULL thyroid panel worked up, @Syleyna. Something I learned this week, which frankly, shocked the heck out of me, is that thyroid dysfunction, with or without the autoimmune component of Hashimoto's, can actually emulate many mental disorders, including bipolar manic-depression, with it's volatile mood swings and all, while remaining resistant to most anti-psychotic and other mood medications since if the issues are thyroid triggered, those medications won't touch/treat the underlying issue... I would suggest someone who focuses on thyroid issues, mental issues, and/or a combination.... Good luck on this.

    I am on medication for hypothyroidism and before I was diagnosed I became very depressed which is unusual for me and also started suffering from anxiety and a general brain fog and confusion so I agree, get your thyroid checked! - however, I was only borderline according to my blood test results and only due to having a good doctor who actually looked at symptoms alongside numbers was I diagnosed and treated.
    My previous dr was happy to just label it depression with no further investigation as a lot of the symptoms do mimic it, as knitormiss said (extreme fatigue, brain fog). I was also very cold ALL of the time and my hair was falling out!!

    Anyway, I just wanted to say that I send you good vibes and hope that you are able to continue on your journey of good health without having to suffer from the despondency you felt last time. I think you sound very brave to have to endure these dark periods in your life and I wish for you a future free from further episodes xx

  • nicintime
    nicintime Posts: 381 Member
    HUGELY careful with enough salt / electrolytes.

    A lack thereof could mess up certain neuro chemical pathways
  • Syleyna
    Syleyna Posts: 86 Member
    edited April 2016
    Thanks for the advice (and overwhelming love and support!!) everyone. Funny how the mind works, I just want to listen to the one that says "eat more fat", because I'd like it to be that easy. I was erring towards not enough fat having an adverse effect on my hormones which triggered it? Looks like I'll go to the doctor *groans* and get my thyroid checked. Hypothyroidism does run in the family.
    @nicintime I supplement electrolytes daily when I'm keto, otherwise I get headaches, muscle cramps, fatigue. I make sure to get it in me! Scratch that one off the list ^.^
    @Mirabelle1983 Unfortunately I have zero self control when it comes to sweets and carbs. If I incorporated daily I'd come completely derailed because I can't 'just have one'. I'm much better at going cold turkey, and this WoE eliminates my cravings.
    @samanthaluangphixay I wasn't feeling restricted at all. I loved it. I loved the way I felt, I loved the food I ate. I was jogging 3-4 times a week. Life was good. Everytime I was slightly moody or sick however my husband tried to blame my diet. Considering nothing was different or wrong in my life when I went downhill I believed him this time, which is why I chose to indulge in something which was off limits.

    Gaaaaah doctors >.<
  • KarlaYP
    KarlaYP Posts: 4,436 Member
    Bless you heart, and I mean that in the most endearing way possible! What a scary feeling! I'm giving you HUGE KUDOS for recognizing it, and seeking help for it! I've heard of some, as @Knitormiss mentioned, that keto levels will make their depressive episodes worse. I haven't read anything more than that though. Wish I had some awesome words of wisdom for you that would fix it too! I am sending big hugs though, and want you to know that you can bring this here, anytime, and have us here to support you through it!

  • BelleCakes2018
    BelleCakes2018 Posts: 568 Member
    Yes I can understand the cold turkey thing. That has worked well for me (apart from the tom when I let myself have anything I want) apart from that.. a little does make some of us want more.
    Going to a doctor will at least give you another opinion. It may just be all about experimentation...are dare I say it, some meds if you really need them?
  • Phrick
    Phrick Posts: 2,765 Member
    edited April 2016
    @KnitOrMiss - How much did I need to read your post in this topic today?! All I've been hearing/reading/finding for months are the potential benefits of Ketogenic eating for Bipolar disorder (I'm BP type 2, also with GAD) and I've been trying SO HARD, and just getting more anxious and more depressed; more volatile and less controlled - with the accompanied feeling that I'm totally failing at this and doing something wrong... what a freedom to read this and realized my brain is probably just not one of the ones that's going to respond well to it (AND THAT IS OK). Sh-t, now I'm crying at my desk.

    I'd initially found what I felt like was my "sweet spot" at around 75g carbs/day back in about June of last year but then my psychologist mentioned keto and I totally ran with it (I did involve my doc in that i asked if it was OK) and the result has come to today, I'm SO anxious and SO miserable and SO grumpy and touchy and jumpy and UGH!! This is the push I need, I quit keto. Right now.
  • baconslave
    baconslave Posts: 7,018 Member
    edited April 2016
    Phrick wrote: »
    @KnitOrMiss - How much did I need to read your post in this topic today?! All I've been hearing/reading/finding for months are the potential benefits of Ketogenic eating for Bipolar disorder (I'm BP type 2, also with GAD) and I've been trying SO HARD, and just getting more anxious and more depressed; more volatile and less controlled - with the accompanied feeling that I'm totally failing at this and doing something wrong... what a freedom to read this and realized my brain is probably just not one of the ones that's going to respond well to it (AND THAT IS OK). Sh-t, now I'm crying at my desk.

    I'd initially found what I felt like was my "sweet spot" at around 75g carbs/day back in about June of last year but then my psychologist mentioned keto and I totally ran with it (I did involve my doc in that i asked if it was OK) and the result has come to today, I'm SO anxious and SO miserable and SO grumpy and touchy and jumpy and UGH!! This is the push I need, I quit keto. Right now.


    Good for you.

    I LOVE LOVE LOVE keto. But it was working against me due to this potential Sjogren's thing. So I quit.
    If it's not working for you, or working against you, there no sense in continuing to beat your head again the wall.

    All people, IMO, will get benefits from going low-carb. Not everyone is a best-fit for keto.
    If you give it your 100% best, and it's still not helping or making things worse...it's time to find a different WOE. If the tool we are trying to use isn't working, then it's time to find another one, right?

    I was keto for over 1.5 years. I lost 100lb with it. Improved all my markers. But the struggle with my condition (which went nuclear recently) is a lot less at 100g carbs than 50. Counter-intuitive considering how antiinflammatory keto is supposed to be for autoimmune issues, I know. But keto can dry people out. So when I'm dry already because my body is stupid, that's not going to work.

    I hope that you feel better soon. :heart:
  • MDAPebbles67
    MDAPebbles67 Posts: 181 Member
    I have gone on and off keto a few times over the last few years. At least twice the catalyst for quitting has been a sudden desire to kill myself. It comes out of nowhere, but is usually related to monthly hormonal shifts. I have no history of depression.

    Currently, I am keto again, because it helps with my binge eating disorder. This time, I am making sure to have rice or a potato with dinner every week or two. This kicks my carbs up above 50. The key is to cycle up carbs using healthier options instead of junk. I also second the "keep fat high" and "supplement electrolytes" suggestions.

    I won't know if this will work long term for a while. I will report back in a month or so.
    I just wanted to point out that this can happen to anyone, not just those with a history of depression.


  • KnitOrMiss
    KnitOrMiss Posts: 10,103 Member
    edited April 2016
    Phrick wrote: »
    @KnitOrMiss - How much did I need to read your post in this topic today?! All I've been hearing/reading/finding for months are the potential benefits of Ketogenic eating for Bipolar disorder (I'm BP type 2, also with GAD) and I've been trying SO HARD, and just getting more anxious and more depressed; more volatile and less controlled - with the accompanied feeling that I'm totally failing at this and doing something wrong... what a freedom to read this and realized my brain is probably just not one of the ones that's going to respond well to it (AND THAT IS OK). Sh-t, now I'm crying at my desk.

    I'd initially found what I felt like was my "sweet spot" at around 75g carbs/day back in about June of last year but then my psychologist mentioned keto and I totally ran with it (I did involve my doc in that i asked if it was OK) and the result has come to today, I'm SO anxious and SO miserable and SO grumpy and touchy and jumpy and UGH!! This is the push I need, I quit keto. Right now.

    @Phrick I'm so happy that my post helped you listen to your inner voice!! I have a very good personal friend who ended up spiraling out into a 4 month manic (and very destructive) episode while trying to do keto! It was through her that we did a bunch of research and found out that while it's fabulous and life-changing for some, for others, it's the flipside - and absolutely nightmare!!!!

    Something else I've learned recently is how stressful keto can be on the body for some of us... Some of us adjust really well ongoing, and it doesn't kick in cortisol or trigger stress reactions. Others of us? It just explodes. @baconslave is a great example of this. It was her ROCK for so long. Then it got to the point where the switch just flipped, and she needed something different.

    I think I'm in this space, too. We're told, don't forget to mix up our exercise, because our bodies get used to things, then change up. Why on earth shouldn't that apply to sub-categories of our dietary plans, too?? I mean, really, I'm low carb, in some form or fashion, for life. But I don't think (ANYMORE) that I'll be keto for life... I think it will come in phases or waves. I might need the strictness and such of it 3 months here, 6 months there. But like everything, it's just a tool on my toolbelt. I determine by how my body feels if I need to use it then.

    Also, with that Diabetes Summit last week, I learned that when our blood sugars start going back up on keto, in response to body stress, particularly fasting numbers, it's likely time to mix it up somehow, give the body a break, just as we always tell folks to do from calorie restriction. You can only stay so low for so long without slowing your metabolism, etc. It makes perfect sense (TO ME!) that for us with still damaged metabolisms that this would be similar with extreme carb restriction, too. I understand someone who has to avoid grains and sugars and fruits to manage fibromyalgia pain or prevent seizures, but that isn't me. My body's whole ecology doesn't flourish that way... So I'm back in research mode.

    Looking forward to how we all progress in mixing things back up again!

    EDITED TO ADD: @Phrick - I teared up at work just reading this, too!!
  • KarlaYP
    KarlaYP Posts: 4,436 Member
    I'm considering a venture back in to low carb too! Been feeling like a change is needed. Want to experiment with sweet potato, and some rice (this one scares me a bit because of potential pain!) after April is done! I've been keto for a year, and it's been wonderful for me! I'm know that I will remain very low carb, and high fat, for life though!
  • LowCarbInScotland
    LowCarbInScotland Posts: 1,027 Member
    Karlottap wrote: »
    I'm considering a venture back in to low carb too! Been feeling like a change is needed. Want to experiment with sweet potato, and some rice (this one scares me a bit because of potential pain!) after April is done! I've been keto for a year, and it's been wonderful for me! I'm know that I will remain very low carb, and high fat, for life though!

    If you decide to try adding rice back in, you might want to try this hack that came out last year after scientists found they could change the starch makeup of rice by cooking it with coconut oil then cooling it.

    http://time.com/3754097/rice-calories-starch/
  • FitToLead
    FitToLead Posts: 275 Member
    I think mainstream medicine will eventually catch up to the fact that food is medicine, and the food we need is based on our individual bionome, genetics, epigenetics (the way our genetic expressions are changed following external influences, and how our hormones change with all of this.

    And during that time, there will be a far greater understanding of how these physiological aspects cause mental health struggles, and hopefully one day, everyone will have more fine tuned understandings of what works for them during changing contexts.

    No one has to live with chronic anxiety or depression. It can be quite a jigsaw puzzle to find the way through, it took me years myself, but, that journey taught me a lot of really important, and some subtle things, but mostly, not to accept the unacceptable.. find the path.

    Just like some days I just need to double my carbs, my immune system gets weak when I go keto, some days. And the other things, like for me, drinking coffee 3 days in a row means I will wake up with my mind in the sewer, 5 days, I want to die.

    Just coffee!

  • LowCarbInScotland
    LowCarbInScotland Posts: 1,027 Member
    FitToLead wrote: »
    I think mainstream medicine will eventually catch up to the fact that food is medicine, and the food we need is based on our individual bionome, genetics, epigenetics (the way our genetic expressions are changed following external influences, and how our hormones change with all of this.

    And during that time, there will be a far greater understanding of how these physiological aspects cause mental health struggles, and hopefully one day, everyone will have more fine tuned understandings of what works for them during changing contexts.

    No one has to live with chronic anxiety or depression. It can be quite a jigsaw puzzle to find the way through, it took me years myself, but, that journey taught me a lot of really important, and some subtle things, but mostly, not to accept the unacceptable.. find the path.

    Just like some days I just need to double my carbs, my immune system gets weak when I go keto, some days. And the other things, like for me, drinking coffee 3 days in a row means I will wake up with my mind in the sewer, 5 days, I want to die.

    Just coffee!

    While I completely believe that exercise and a custom tailored diet can help people overcome psychological / mental issues, I think that the support provided by drug therapy and cognitive behavioural therapy will still hold an important place in our society and in the role of some people's wellness.

    It would be nice if more GPs and specialists took a more holistic approach and worked with patients (and worked together) to incorporate multiple therapies to find the right combination for each person, but I suppose that's a lot more expensive than simply doling out pills and insurance companies are unlikely to support that anytime soon.

    Eating very low carb has given me more strength to battle my depression and to overcome my tendency to use food as my security blanket, but there are many days that I struggle to fight it back still and on those days, it would be nice to have a backup plan.

    I find mental health treatment really frustrating in the UK, the solution appears to be to send patients to the Internet to read about mental health. I'd rather go pick out my own self-help book on Amazon. In fact The Beck Diet Solution was a great support for me as I still use many of those behavioural techniques today, many years after reading the book. Though it wasn't until I found a better food plan for myself that the behavioural changes started to work for me.

    Okay, that rant was all over the place :blush: