Learning from Total Immersion AND Swim Smooth Schools of Swimming
Robertus
Posts: 558 Member
I've started to read Terry Laughlin's most recent book, Swim Ultra-Efficient Freestyle!. Terry is the founder of the Total Immersion school of swimming. I'm thinking of doing a workshop, but for now I'm just reading the book and will start experimenting with some of ideas.
Let me know if anyone would like to start a discussion about these techniques. I know there are some advocates here as well as some who are less than enthusiastic. I'm also going to be looking into the Swim Smooth school of swimming. Its focus on faster or shorter strokes may be better adapted to open-water swimming in choppier waters.
Ultimately, my goal will be to pick and choose the techniques from both schools that will allow me to swim injury free for the rest of my life. As some of you know, I started to have elbow/shoulder issues last year while training for a 3.1 mile 10k open-water swim and suddenly jumping my normal training distance from 3 miles to 5 miles. Since then I've been swimming much less frequently and listening to my body more and not worrying about speed. Recently, I've redone the 5-mile distance a couple of times with no exacerbation of the injury. My style is very intuitive and not technique or training centric so it is a bit of a challenge to me to try and learn about what I typically just feel my way through, but I'm going to give it a try.
The first technique I will be experimenting with is releasing and keeping my head aligned with my spine and tail bone.
Meet Mr Smooth
Total Immersion Swimming
Let me know if anyone would like to start a discussion about these techniques. I know there are some advocates here as well as some who are less than enthusiastic. I'm also going to be looking into the Swim Smooth school of swimming. Its focus on faster or shorter strokes may be better adapted to open-water swimming in choppier waters.
Ultimately, my goal will be to pick and choose the techniques from both schools that will allow me to swim injury free for the rest of my life. As some of you know, I started to have elbow/shoulder issues last year while training for a 3.1 mile 10k open-water swim and suddenly jumping my normal training distance from 3 miles to 5 miles. Since then I've been swimming much less frequently and listening to my body more and not worrying about speed. Recently, I've redone the 5-mile distance a couple of times with no exacerbation of the injury. My style is very intuitive and not technique or training centric so it is a bit of a challenge to me to try and learn about what I typically just feel my way through, but I'm going to give it a try.
The first technique I will be experimenting with is releasing and keeping my head aligned with my spine and tail bone.
Meet Mr Smooth
Total Immersion Swimming
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90 SPM? Ha. I don't have the strength to pull that fast. I'm probably closer to 50ish. I also don't pull until my other hand 'catches up' from the catch up drill.
Technique won't make my arms pull faster through the water. I'm at the point where strength increases are what will help. Not that my technique is perfect. But it takes an increase in the strength / hydrodynamics ratio to get pull faster through the water. At least that is my take on where I am at.0 -
Focusing on a higher rate of strokes per minute, I suppose, is probably helpful in open-water swimming in choppy waters. Most of my swimming is in a pool, where a smooth efficient stroke seems more beneficial. My focus here is not on speed, but rather efficiency for the sake of avoiding injury. Speed may be a side benefit, but my goal is just to remain an injury-free long-distance swimmer for the rest of my life.90 SPM? Ha. I don't have the strength to pull that fast. I'm probably closer to 50ish. I also don't pull until my other hand 'catches up' from the catch up drill.
Technique won't make my arms pull faster through the water. I'm at the point where strength increases are what will help. Not that my technique is perfect. But it takes an increase in the strength / hydrodynamics ratio to get pull faster through the water. At least that is my take on where I am at.
Last night, I tried the Total Immersion (TI) approach to letting go of the head and keeping it in line with spine and tailbone, pushing from the core and letting the head merely follow the shoulders. Not too successful, I must say. Trying to use this technique to also learn bilateral breathing. Got a few gulps of water. Managed a couple of lengths of only breathing on my left side, but cannot do it smoothly yet. I haven't given up, but it is hard to teach an old dog new tricks!
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It took me a few miles of swimming to get comfortable breathing from both sides. But not it is totally natural.
Keeping the head down, chin almost tucked, helps keep the butt and legs up. That, too, feels natural after some time.
I find that my shoulders feel better when I get a good stretch reach in my form. Also not keeping my arm straight as I pull through. When I bend my elbows I can actually feel more muscles engaging. And that reduces strain.
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90SPM sounds very exhausting! Even at race pace for 100m my SPM is only about 652
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I didn't look at my stroke rate until I saw this thread. I'm averaging 23/minute and up to nearly 30 when I'm going all out. I can't imagine doubling or tripling that as I'm sure my technique (such as it is) would fly apart.
My numbers are from my watch which is pretty accurate at counting the distance so I believe the stroke numbers as well.
Definitely interested in how the TI stuff works out for you, @Robertus -- they do a good job of selling it on their blog and in their videos.0 -
I didn't look at my stroke rate until I saw this thread. I'm averaging 23/minute and up to nearly 30 when I'm going all out. I can't imagine doubling or tripling that as I'm sure my technique (such as it is) would fly apart.
My numbers are from my watch which is pretty accurate at counting the distance so I believe the stroke numbers as well.
Definitely interested in how the TI stuff works out for you, @Robertus -- they do a good job of selling it on their blog and in their videos.
Crikey that's low - are you counting strokes per arm or total strokes!0 -
I'm guessing someone is taking that from a Garmin. It should be doubled if so.1
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NoelFigart1 wrote: »I'm guessing someone is taking that from a Garmin. It should be doubled if so.
This is where I'd try to fit in a joke about one armed swimming in a circular lane...but I got nothing.
Yes, my numbers are from my Garmin. Thanks for the clarification. So I'm really cruising at around 44-46 spm.
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I have no idea what my stroke rate is, other than "slow," but I am interested in the 2-beat kick of TI swimming, since my kick is disastrous. My aim is to swim consistently. I'm not focused on speed yet, although I can tell that just like when I started running, I am getting a little faster, and my endurance for faster swimming is increasing. This is all happening at a glacial place, but since my end goal with swimming is to learn good technique and to enjoy it, I think I'm on track. I think I'd need to adjust my breathing if I did 90spm. Right now, I can breathe bilaterally, every other stroke. I'm sure trying to change that would throw off my already pathetic and weak kick and then I'd really lose form. Best not to mess with what I've got going, but I do watch TI clips on the interwebs to remind myself about head positioning, body positioning, etc. because it really helps when I get into the water.0
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My stroke rate is a fairly low 54 spm. I'm trying to get that up to the usual marathon swimmer spm of 60. That's tougher than you think!0
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Not been on the forum in a good while.
I would say I'm in the swim smooth camp at the moment.
Most of my life, I've always tried and been taught to get faster by have really long strokes, which is good. But the SPM would also drop way down (which is not so good)!
After getting the swim smooth book and watching the videos, I decided to take the different approach.
Stroke rate they say is very unique to each swimmer and you need to work with your coach to get the optimum stroke rate for you!
I don't have a coach so after getting my music player this year, and fixing the music at a stroke rate, my goal has been to get used to a stroke rate of 67.5 SPM.
I just picked the number because it seems to be optimum with the speeds I would hope to be doing, if the rest of my stroke is right!
I also think my physique is more geared towards a higher stroke rate as I don't have the really wide wingspan and long limbs that would allow me to utilize a much slower stroke rate as effectively!
Before I started on this I checked my stroke rate and it was perhaps in the mid 50s or lower - definitely below 60.
Swim smooth advocate gradual adjusting up of the stroke rate. But me being me, I just set the music at the target rate and boom.
Even an adjustment upward by 5 SPM is significant, so jumping up by 10+ SPM like I did is certainly Not the best way to do it, extremely exhausting, my stroke essentially fell apart, and I've spent most of this year so far getting it back and getting comfortable at this rate.
I'm committed to the 67.5 SPM for the time being, so perhaps it is just now that I feel I'm getting the hang of it, and working to lengthen my strokes at the new rate! I've given it the rest of the year to explore this stroke rate!
So it's fair to say 67.5 SPM Is my new normal and I can sustain 67.5 SPM for at least an hour now (probably longer but not tried), but need to lengthen the stroke as going by the swim smooth chart, my speed is slow for that SPM and needs to head up, which gives me a good target to work towards.
One thing's for sure - you certainly burn a lot more calories at the higher SPM! It's a much less 'relaxing' swim at that level! But if your stroke falls apart, you can end up swimming much slower, if it's not done right!
Sprinters can go up to 90-110 SPM, but that is sustained over a short period!!!
Over a longer distance, it's said the female swimmers tend to generally have a higher SPM then the male swimmers, due to body composition!
The swim smooth book states:
"As an extreme example of how consistent an elite swimmer can be, Shelley Taylor-Smith (seven-time World Marathon Swimming Champion) held 88 SPM (strokes per minute) for a distance of 70 km from Sydney to Wollongong (Australia) only varying by ±5% over this epic 12-hour challenge. Amazing!"
I'm exhausted just thinking about that. 70km is crazy in itself, but with a sustained stroke rate of 88 SPM throughout? I think that certainly requires some genetic gifting from the Creator!1 -
Thanks, AQ, very interesting.0
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Since this thread has generated a lot of interest in stroke rate, I decided to share this email I received from Swim Smooth:"You might be interested to know some strokes rates per minute (SPM) from elite swimmers and triathletes whilst racing:
- Katie Ledecky 800m 2013 World Championship Gold: 81SPM
Swimming speed: 61.7”/100m, height: 1.80m (5’11”)
- Ian Thorpe 400m World Record: 72 SPM
Swimming speed: 55.0"/100m, height: 1.95m (6'5")
- Michael Phelps 200m World Record: 77 SPM
Swimming speed: 51.5"/100m, height: 1.93m (6'4")
- Emma Snowsill Gold Medal Triathlon At Beijing Olympics: 86 SPM
Swimming speed: 79.4"/100m (OW 1500m No Wetsuit), height: 1.61m (5'3")
- Laure Manadou Gold Medal 400m At Athens Olympics: 108 SPM
Swimming speed: 61.3"/100m, height: 1.78m (5'10")
- Alistair Brownlee Gold Medal Triathlon At London Olympics: 95 SPM
Swimming speed: 68.0”/100m, height: 1.84m (6’0”)
Notice how different elite swimmers are using very different stroke rates to suit their height, build and the environment in which they are swimming (pool versus open water).
There’s also a strong element here of what suits each individual swimmer, i.e. their natural style. However as a general rule swimmers racing long distances in open water use higher stroke rates than those racing over shorter distances in the pool."0 -
And it seems the shorter you are, the more you benefit from a higher stroke rate! Females benefit more too!!!
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AquaticQuests wrote: »And it seems the shorter you are, the more you benefit from a higher stroke rate! Females benefit more too!!!
I'm a shorty and my stats would be 63SPM
Swimming speed: 72s/100m, height: 1.64m (5’4 AND A HALF lol”)0 -
wow. Just amazing. I am working so hard on being smooth, I can't imagine moving my arms that quickly. Tonight's stats had me averaging just under 60 spm for my first set at my fastest pace. Cruising pace is more like 48 spm. I guess it's time for more sprint intervals?0
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I can't say I have ever done a timed SPM. I'm just guessing it is between 50 and 60. Depends of it someone is in the lane next to me
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I can't say I have ever done a timed SPM. I'm just guessing it is between 50 and 60. Depends of it someone is in the lane next to me
Yes, funny how that works. It can feel good to "beat" someone even though it's not really a race (yes it is, every lap). Even when I'm swimming next to someone who clearly can kick my butt, I think I probably push a little more vs being out there by myself. I love getting passed by the youth swim teams kids on their workout but I think it's even more entertaining to get passed by someone who is clearly carrying more extra weight than me but definitely has the swimming thing figured out. Both women and men. It's awesome.1 -
My goal is to get my cruising pace at around 60 SPM (trying to become a marathon swimmer, and that's about standard). The best I've done recently is more like 56.0
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If I ever get a sports watch, I will find out what my stroke rate is.0
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In the meantime, does anyone have any tips on helping an old dog learn bilateral breathing?0
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In the meantime, does anyone have any tips on helping an old dog learn bilateral breathing?
@Robertus What I did was to use a pool buoy so I did not have to kick and would swim a Clockwise loop in the lane - keeping the lane rope close to my weak side. Concentrating on just looking past the lane rope and doing all the breathing on my weak side. This way I had the lane rope as a guide for body roll and that last little bit of head turn to clear the mouth out of the water. Not sure if that description makes any sense.
This also helped me when comparing weak to strong side breathing - arm position in the pull - I find that I am usually late rolling on my weak side which makes for a shorter breathing window - thus giving me that hurried feeling. On my strong side I start to roll when I am about 1/3 through the pull. On my weak side it is closer to 1/2 making for a hurried roll and breathing cycle.1 -
Thanks, Juliet! I also saw this tip in the daily thread:juliet3455 wrote: »In the meantime, does anyone have any tips on helping an old dog learn bilateral breathing?
@Robertus What I did was to use a pool buoy so I did not have to kick and would swim a Clockwise loop in the lane - keeping the lane rope close to my weak side. Concentrating on just looking past the lane rope and doing all the breathing on my weak side. This way I had the lane rope as a guide for body roll and that last little bit of head turn to clear the mouth out of the water. Not sure if that description makes any sense.
This also helped me when comparing weak to strong side breathing - arm position in the pull - I find that I am usually late rolling on my weak side which makes for a shorter breathing window - thus giving me that hurried feeling. On my strong side I start to roll when I am about 1/3 through the pull. On my weak side it is closer to 1/2 making for a hurried roll and breathing cycle....
I personally prefer to work my freestyle kick by using no board and leading straight out with one arm. After about 4 to 6 seconds of kicking I switch arms to breathe. Can you bilaterally breathe? If not this drill will also help with that. It's harder than pure board kicking because less air, however will develop your kicking to be more efficient for the actual freestyle stroke. Also try kicking on your back with no board to work your abs and hip extensor strength. Backstroke kicking and freestyle kicking are complimentary to each other.
The main thing is to focus on (for freestyle and back stroke kick) is that it is originating from your hips, not your knees. When you're on your back your knees should not really be breaking water so much as your feet do. You don't want to "bicycle" the water either. Have fun!0 -
I am practising my bilateral a little (it was good once ....) and 3 tips from my coaching - don't do the breath last minute, rotate consciously early in the stroke. widen your kick as you rotate (both senses ie more back/forward movement and legs further apart) and narrow it all back down again when you are face down again. And keep the non pull arm relaxed, not stiffly out in front.
And get used to drinking water....oh, nope the coach didn't say that bit, that is just me.....0 -
I started with a kickboard, because when I got to my weak side, I literally didn't roll. It didn't take long though, before I was feeling it. Then I graduated to a pull bouy, which was a huge help! I thought I discovered that secret, lol. I know that my breathing is OK on both sides now, but my body position gets thrown off when I breathe on my weak side--my butt/legs drop, and my left leg forgets to kick. Literally. I think I'm a lopsided swimmer.0
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NoelFigart1 wrote: »My goal is to get my cruising pace at around 60 SPM (trying to become a marathon swimmer, and that's about standard). The best I've done recently is more like 56.
Takes me about 3:40, sometimes less, to do 10km, Olympic marathon swim distance, in pool. Plus an extra lap for the Monk in me. 220 kappa in a 25 yard pool. Never done it in open water.0
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