I'm new to EM2W. Introduction and questions
Options
streblerm
Posts: 18 Member
Hi all. This is a new concept for me. I thought I would introduce myself and see if the EM2WL gurus think I am on the right track. I have spent my entire adolescent and adult life on low cal/low fat diets. The "best shape" I have ever been in was probably about ten years ago at 280# doing weight watchers. I was eating around 1500 cal per day to stay there and was totally miserable, but I looked good. I gained much of that weight back and decided it was time to change my diet for good. My wife got me a fitbit with HRM for christmas and when I saw how many calories it said I was burning in a day I reached what can only be described as a moment of diet enlightenment. I wasn't eating enough! About two months ago I started ramping up calories. I haven't eaten breakfast for 30 years, so I started. It's been a struggle. I eliminated all low fat, low sugar, and light products from my diet, even light beer 
. I replaced most of my lighter carb laden snacks with nuts and full fat dairy. I swear I have read every post in this forum. Armed with some data I am trying to make what I consider to be good, long term, life changing decisions. My wife is tired of hearing me talk about this, and sick of me complaing about needing to eat more. so I decided to turn to the interweb. There is so much info swimming around in my head, I hope I can keep this post coherent, here goes.
I am a 39 year old male and I am a big guy at 6'5" and 375#. I work an active job in a busy auto repair shop (a change in the past year or so coming from a more sedentary office job). By active I am talking about 15k steps per day, 200 minutes in "fat burn" zone and 30 minutes per day in "cardio" zone according to fitbit over the past 28 day average. This is pretty consistent over the past 120 days. I carefully journal my food. I weigh probably 75% of what I eat and try to journal everything. Over, under, whiskey, beer, cake or fruits and vegetables. It all goes in. MFP makes it easy to do.
With my size and activity level it pushes my numbers to a seemingly crazy level. The Just my TDEE spreadsheet puts my BMR at 2731calories and TDEE at 5152 calories based on fitbit activity data. Fitbit is showing my average calorie burn at around 6500 calories
. I totally understand that these are just numbers and I am trying to find where my Actual TDEE is.
January and February I was eating 3500 calories per day. I saw weight loss, down to 367 but hit a plateau. I decided that cutting calories didn't work well long term in the past so I re-evaluated my activity level and upped my calories to 4500 per day in march. I saw a bit of gain, up to 5# or so. But I really felt better. My joints feel better, my back feels better, my skin is better. I had more energy...Maybe this will work after all. So in April I bumped up to 5100 calories per day. I have gained another 5# or so and I'm starting to feel it in my clothes a little although I am noticing more muscle tone. I haven't been taking actual measurements but I have been thinking about starting.
So here I am today. It is tempting to fall back to eating less but I'm still not sure I've found my actual TDEE. It's kind of like a game of chicken. How much weight will you gain before you start the cut? After reading about the biggest loser folks I wonder if my years of low cal dieting have destroyed my metabolism. Although, over 2015 I lost almost 2 pants sizes without really trying just by changing to an active job.
to distill this down to some coherent questions, Have I found my TDEE yet? should I eat less or more? is more information necessary to make a recommendation?
I thank all who contribute to this forum in advance. I know it's a bit long winded but it feels good to type it out.
. I replaced most of my lighter carb laden snacks with nuts and full fat dairy. I swear I have read every post in this forum. Armed with some data I am trying to make what I consider to be good, long term, life changing decisions. My wife is tired of hearing me talk about this, and sick of me complaing about needing to eat more. so I decided to turn to the interweb. There is so much info swimming around in my head, I hope I can keep this post coherent, here goes.I am a 39 year old male and I am a big guy at 6'5" and 375#. I work an active job in a busy auto repair shop (a change in the past year or so coming from a more sedentary office job). By active I am talking about 15k steps per day, 200 minutes in "fat burn" zone and 30 minutes per day in "cardio" zone according to fitbit over the past 28 day average. This is pretty consistent over the past 120 days. I carefully journal my food. I weigh probably 75% of what I eat and try to journal everything. Over, under, whiskey, beer, cake or fruits and vegetables. It all goes in. MFP makes it easy to do.
With my size and activity level it pushes my numbers to a seemingly crazy level. The Just my TDEE spreadsheet puts my BMR at 2731calories and TDEE at 5152 calories based on fitbit activity data. Fitbit is showing my average calorie burn at around 6500 calories
. I totally understand that these are just numbers and I am trying to find where my Actual TDEE is.January and February I was eating 3500 calories per day. I saw weight loss, down to 367 but hit a plateau. I decided that cutting calories didn't work well long term in the past so I re-evaluated my activity level and upped my calories to 4500 per day in march. I saw a bit of gain, up to 5# or so. But I really felt better. My joints feel better, my back feels better, my skin is better. I had more energy...Maybe this will work after all. So in April I bumped up to 5100 calories per day. I have gained another 5# or so and I'm starting to feel it in my clothes a little although I am noticing more muscle tone. I haven't been taking actual measurements but I have been thinking about starting.
So here I am today. It is tempting to fall back to eating less but I'm still not sure I've found my actual TDEE. It's kind of like a game of chicken. How much weight will you gain before you start the cut? After reading about the biggest loser folks I wonder if my years of low cal dieting have destroyed my metabolism. Although, over 2015 I lost almost 2 pants sizes without really trying just by changing to an active job.
to distill this down to some coherent questions, Have I found my TDEE yet? should I eat less or more? is more information necessary to make a recommendation?
I thank all who contribute to this forum in advance. I know it's a bit long winded but it feels good to type it out.
0
Replies
-
Welcome! I'd say that you haven't found your TDEE yet. First thing, you REALLY need to start weighing and measuring EVERYTHING. You won't know how much you are actually eating unless you are keeping track-no "best" guess!
So eat at 5100 calories for a few weeks and see what the weight does. If it stabilizes then add 250 calories for a week and see what happens. If you don't gain, add another 250 calories the next week and see what happens. The point is to slowly up your calories until you STEADILY gain weight. The fast weight increases are probably not fat, so don't worry about it.
Good luck getting all those calories in!! OMG that is a TON. But you will eventually learn how to eat correctly. That's what this process teaches you. Try nuts. Good fats, lots of calories, lots of protein. Avocado too!0 -
Hello @streblerm! Welcome! Fad diets can do a good number to your metabolism, but you can work your way back and revert the damage. Justsayinisall gave great advice on tracking and increasing cals to reach your TDEE. You are doing a great job by tracking most of your intake. How are you macros? Are you hitting 30% protein?
Aren't the side effects of increasing your calories to a level that fuels your body amazing? Kids need 1500 calories to survive.
More information is always helpful. Have you checked the EM2WL site (www.eatmore2weighless.com)? It has a lot of info on how to's and what to expect during this journey.0 -
Thanks justsayinisall. I feel confident that my journaling is accurate. Most of what I don't weigh is either pre packaged/measured or just cant easily be weighed like occasionally eating out. I have eliminated mindless eating. If it goes in my mouth it goes into MFP. My wife and I play a game we call "how many calories do you think that is?" And we are pretty good at it. One side effect of 30 years of dieting is that you do get a lot of practice with portion size. Does anyone remember weight watchers when it was an exchange plan?
I have really made some mental changes with dieting. For example in the past I might make a PBJ sandwich and either lick the knife or eat a big glob of peanut butter that would not be accounted for. I finally realized that diet cheating is only cheating yourself. Now if I want a glob of PB I tare the spoon and weigh it.0 -
TerezaToledo, my macros are hovering around 40/40/20 which is a significant increase in protein vs before I started EM2WL, probably double. Due to my calorie needs this works out to about 200g of protein per day that I am eating currently. I'm not sure I can eat much more protein without resorting to supplements and I would prefer not to. I'm also not sure that I can add another 100g of protein per day through food. I am working on it though.
I have a lot of weight to lose, 100# is my goal. I will need to eat less as I lose weight. I think my macros will come in line as I have to start cutting calories. Part of my plan for this is switching back to lower fat dairy, going back to spray butter etc.
Most of the reason I posted this is because I haven't come across anyone who has similar numbers to mine in the forums yet. I'm just looking for a reality check because my numbers seem unreal sometimes.
I appreciate the comments and I am taking it all in. Any diet information that I have access to I am willing to share. I am data driven which is what I love about MFP and Fitbit. Even if my Fitbit isn't accurately measuring my calorie burn (a possibility I often consider) it still is measuring consistently. I know that the Fitbit info combined with my journal will eventually lead me to my accurate TDEE.0 -
I'm sure heybales will be along to give you his take on your calorie intake.
One thing you said that made me go "wait, what?" is when you said; " I will need to eat less as I lose weight. Part of my plan for this is switching back to lower fat dairy, going back to spray butter etc." You do realize once you find your TDEE when you go in to "diet" mode you will only need to cut around 500 calories per day. You won't have to make any big dietary changes like switching to spray butter. That was the OLD way of thinking. 500 calories per day only. It won't feel like a diet at all.
If you plan to do more than that, I wouldn't bother doing what you are doing finding your TDEE. The whole point is to get our metabolism back up and running like a "normal" person and then make a small cut to lose weight...like a "normal" person does lol. If you plan to do a huge cut, your metabolism will just adjust, like it has in the past, and you will find yourself back at square one.
0 -
At 275# my TDEE will be 1000 calories lower than it is at 375# given that my activity level stays the same. It is my understanding that you re-evaluate TDEE as you lose weight. Given that I have 100# to lose and from what I have read a 1000 calorie deficit would not be out of line, right? The activity level that burns x calories today may not burn the same amount of calories throughout my journey so activity level will also need to be evaluated through time.
So either I cut 500 now once I find TDEE and adjust as I lose or I cut 1000 calories which should be approximately my maintenance TDEE at goal weight. Or some combo of the two.
I'm thinking long term, not short.
0 -
Every statement that I make here is really a question. I tend to think in absolutes but I am trying to invite debate which helps me to learn.
0 -
I'm so glad that you stated that you are into this for the long term! Being patient and doing changes that you can keep for life are one f the keys to succeed in your journey. I see your point in reducing fats to give more room for protein in your macros, just don't let the fat percentage go too low. Your body needs fat. Plus they help you feel fuller in the days that you move less.
I agree that you have a situation a bit more unique, that your TDEE numbers are higher the most of us. But I'm sure you can get great results. It's i portant to boost your metabolism back to where it should be. I know you want the numbers on the scale to decrease ASAP, but give yourself some more time. I know you have a very active job, but are you currently doing any resistance training?0 -
I have been using real butter, rather than "spray butter". I feel your body does better with real things. I would rather cut a few calories somewhere else.0
-
No weights yet, other than lifting heavy things. One of my favorite "leisure activities" is firewood which I do 2-4 hrs per week. I know it isn't exactly resistance training though
I was trying to boost my activity level for a while but I relaxed slightly. I'm trying to focus on TDEE mainly. Honestly, I'm sandbagging. I know that I will have to add activity as I lose weight and I don't want to get ahead of myself or start a pace that I can't maintain.
0 -
RetiredAndLovingIt wrote: »I have been using real butter, rather than "spray butter". I feel your body does better with real things. I would rather cut a few calories somewhere else.
I don't mean to turn this into a "butter is the enemy" thing. I was just using it as an example. For the record I like butter and have always eaten it. I used to keep it in the freezer, then in the fridge, now it is on the counter. At some point it may go back in the fridge. Time will tell.0 -
Butter is not the enemy, neither bacon or any specific food, unless you have a condition that requires you to stay away from it. I undestand why you would use less oil for cooking. As much as I love coconut oil, butter, olive oil and many other fats, I just don't want my food loaded all the time and aometimes I wouod rather leave my fat allowance for other treats without compromising my macros. One of the good things about the EM2WL lifestyle is that you can chose your foods and work them into your daily intake.
The fact that you are changing things slowly is excellent, it increases the odds of success tremendoslly. This is a journey, a lifestyle, not a quick fix for the summer.
Kiki Smith did a nice Periscope video today, answering quite a few questions about weight lifting, TDEE, cardio and other topics: https://periscope.tv/w/agEk4zExNzU1OTkyfDFCZEdZREVFZG92S1gCzAQV0WEsEkndX1j_Bfjfi1wvlAz_4ShaYSzv-GASjg==1 -
The Fitbit may be having a problem if it's counting non-exercise time as exercise and doing HR-based calorie burn on big chunks of your day.
As you get more fit, that should correct itself.
But for the times it's not HR-based calorie burn - but step-based (which should be all non-exercise time) - you'd probably do well to confirm the distance seen is correct on the Fitbit.
If you can get out on known distance track and walk it at normal work walk pace, maybe just a tad faster, that will be good stride length figure to get. Don't use exercise pace - because your day is likely not exercise pace walking.
So I could see the Fitbit being inflated since so much of your day has potential for inflation based on that possible issues.
Unless you've got kids that keep you active after work, or are including exercise in schedule somewhere - I'm showing the TDEE estimate as closer to 4400, so perhaps between the 2 levels - but ya, it's going to be high.
Same as healthy goal weight is going to be high, and BMR even then.
But due to TDEE being so high, would make a couple of suggestions.
I would not recommend 30% protein when the eating level is that high - that's a massive amount protein. Body is already under stress - if that happens to be too much protein for your liver to handle - very unneeded stress for that amount. You aren't going to be able to use that all as amino acids - they will be getting converted to glycogen - and that is stressful.
0.8 x lb bodyweight = 300 g for protein, or 1200 cal daily.
More than that in studies of even weight lifters trying to retain all muscle mass have shown no improvement for weight loss or retaining muscle.
If needed for feeling full - sure. But I'm doubting you'll have that issue anyway, feeling full shouldn't be the problem for a long while.
0.35 x lb = 131 g fat, or 1179 or basically 1200 too.
The rest can be carbs. Say 4400 - 1200 - 1200 = 2000 cal / 4 = 500 grams.
MFP setup:
C-45% (2000/4400)
P - 25% (1200/4400)
F - 30%
But I would suggest that every meal and snack is a balanced combo of those - with carbs being eaten last.
As TDEE goes down, the 40/30/30 will work better. If TDEE is actually appearing higher, than it'll be more carbs.
Your calorie allowance is going to allow getting nutritional needs in very easily, so don't be afraid of some foods you thought you should label as "bad" - as long as you can have a normal portion, and not eat the whole amount, that could help with calories.
You try to accomplish this on lean meats and vegetables and you'll never eat enough.
Good idea on exercise waiting. Your daily work schedule will be signalling your body easy enough that all these muscles are needed - you won't have any issue with muscle mass loss. Splitting wood is great resistance workout. May want to add something for the opposing muscles though, later.
When it comes time to diet, with that protein and that daily activity - 25% deficit for a few weeks won't really be unrealistic either, not as a guy anyway. We luck out.
I'd imagine health issues for you are more related to weight right now, so some off the top faster is healthier in the long run.
Normal reset weeks down the road will allow rebalancing, and taking 20% then for a few weeks.
But gotta have healthy functioning body first burning as bright as it can.
There is actually another recent topic very close to yours in experience - and he's experiencing what appears to be the max suppression the body will do to adapt to calories being too low - but other health issues making it more difficult.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10260753/why-doesnt-your-body-burn-fat-while-your-metabolism-is-suppressed#latest0 -
Thanks heybales. Regarding the fitbit, I think you are spot on. I always assumed that because of my size and weight that the HRM might be off. I have noticed that at a fairly slow pace my heart rate is just above 90 which does technically put me into the "fat burn zone". For me that is just normal. I may experiment with the heart rate zones to see if I can minimize this. I experimented with turning the HRM off and it did lower my calorie burn significantly. In the end I decided to leave it on. I like gadgets. Besides, a fair amount of my day is spent at a higher heart rate and I want credit for it. I calculated my stride length of 2'5" based on walking a known 100' distance and counting the steps. I did this four times and took the average. The stride length spread was within .5" across all 4 measurements which should put me within 200 or so steps for accuracy at 15k steps. Getting the fitbit to work for me is something I want to do but not priority. I think I would rather find my true TDEE first and make the fitbit match rather than the other way around. I also have FB set to dominant hand and my height as 6'3".
On the activity, I do have two kids and a dog. it is 8am here and I just got the kids on the bus. I already have 2300 steps in. During my work day, time is literally money so every step is with purpose. We get paid by the job, not the hour. A fair amount of my day is spent with my heart rate truly elevated. sweeping, sanding, painting, polishing, carrying parts around, cleaning panels (think cleaning glass), hand washing cars, applying pressure from awkward positions, are all things that get my heart rate up. The job isn't just casually walking around and standing. It is more like carpentry. I probably bend down and pick something up off the floor 200 times a day if not 500. Honestly, until I started eating 4000+ calories I wasn't sure I could continue doing the job because my body just felt beat all the time. Between 7am and 8pm daily I don't sit down other than the drive to and from work and to eat lunch. I get home sometime between 6-6:30pm and I try to do 60-90 minutes of activity after work. Yard work, house maintenance, yesterday it was hand splitting wood. Weekends I take it fairly easy. Usually I do something with the kids and spend some time working around the house. Generally I get about 10k steps on the weekend days.
I think I'm going to hang out at around 5000 cal per day for a a few more weeks and see if I continue to see this up trend in my weight. Honestly, even if I could eat more than that, I don't know that I want to. I can eat EVERYTHING that I want and then some right now and I'm probably drinking too much. After talking this out I do think I am pretty close to TDEE.
And thanks for the macro recommendations. They seem much more manageable. My goal is first to lose weight and I would like to do it without losing significant muscle mass like i did with WW. I am lucky that I don't have any health issues. Part of it is genetics. The other part is that I have always been big and active. But I know I am pushing my luck. This is the first diet that I can see working for me long term.0 -
Sadly the HR zones don't effect calorie burn or when HR-based is used - merely a historical view to see where the workout was.
Now - it should be adjusting to improve that usage, based on restingHR also.
But it can only adjust so much, and even that's still not going to be accurate.
But that usually takes about 2 weeks of usage for that. Though, you could easily be confusing it because it sees the over 90 as workouts - and thinks you workout alot weekly.
I think the Fitbit will be your jump start to nailing your TDEE better.
So some of the elevated HR is associated to same thing lifting causes - not elevated because of increased calorie burn to the level HR may make you think - but rather elevated internal pressure from the effort causing it.
I'd almost suggest getting an average weeks worth of days in for TDEE not based on HR. Since the HR is of interest to you - take each day separately and turn the HRM off for that day. Keep track of that day's burn, steps, distance.
Maybe grab every other day one week, the others days the next week.
Keep track of those in a spreadsheet along with steps and distance, along with what Fitbit reported for burn, steps and distance. Just in case your days of week differ consistently week after week.
That way down the road moving less weight around, you can decide if the HR has dropped enough for the Fitbit to be more accurate - or need to apply a correction factor to keep getting better estimated TDEE as weight drops.
But I'd use that non-HR-based calorie burn for TDEE estimate for now.
Even the spreadsheet with kids and pets estimates 4920 - so 5000 sounds good place to start.
I'd be curious how Fitbit compares.0 -
Turning off the HRM. Past week's average with the HRM on is about 6500 cal. I'm curious to see where my daily calorie burn is without it also.0
-
I'd like to see the difference between readings. Keep us posted.0
-
I will try to keep my activity roughly the same.
All this talk of numbers and I forgot that MFP has me at 4840 cal for maintenance. That is with activity level set at max. I only hit 10k steps today and my Fitbit kicked over 1500 activity calories. That is probably about the amount that Fitbit is off since it is showing around 6500 cal daily.
All this stress over numbers and cool technology and it turns out I'm not special after all. Hey, if it wasn't for the ridiculous Fitbit numbers I don't think I would be on the EM2WL path today. I would probably be barely eating my BMR and wondering why I felt like crap all the time.
Low steps today. Better get splitting.0 -
Everything happens for a reason, right0
-
RetiredAndLovingIt wrote: »I have been using real butter, rather than "spray butter". I feel your body does better with real things. I would rather cut a few calories somewhere else.
I don't mean to turn this into a "butter is the enemy" thing. I was just using it as an example. For the record I like butter and have always eaten it. I used to keep it in the freezer, then in the fridge, now it is on the counter. At some point it may go back in the fridge. Time will tell.
During my cut I find it best to cut out unhelpful carbs (bye vodka0
