% of Calories or Not, It’s a High-Protein Diet (or it should be)
FIT_Goat
Posts: 4,224 Member
tl;dr: Eat more meat, don't worry about too much protein.
http://coachmikeblogs.com/of-calories-or-not-its-a-high-protein-diet-or-it-should-be/
http://coachmikeblogs.com/of-calories-or-not-its-a-high-protein-diet-or-it-should-be/
Lastly, any excess protein not used for muscle, tissue and hormones is burned as fuel, not stored as fat (even when it’s extremely excessive – 4.4g/kg). And overeating it in the first place is extremely difficult. Since unlike carbohydrates and fat, our body knows pretty quickly when we’ve had enough solid protein (and force-feeding is often required to reach an excess).
In other words, people are going to do better (sustainability wise), and look better (buck naked wise), on what they perceive as a high-protein, low-carbohydrate diet. Which means consciously choosing to eat more meat, and using butter or coconut oil to cook or flavour with. Not consciously choosing to eat more scoops of butter or coconut oil….
…for breakfast.
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Replies
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That was very interesting! I am too new to this WOE to comment on right, wrong or indifferent but all information I receive is helping me to make decisions about how to move forward. I would be lying if I've not thought about the point when the butter and coconut oil will start to clog my arteries and cause an MI but I've also resigned myself that at 6 months I'll have a physical and see if this WOE is harming my cholesterol levels - even at my highest weight my cholesterol levels, lipids, etc. were always very good (luck of the Irish, maybe?). Until I see effects for myself, good, bad and otherwise, I can't say I agree or disagree with much about protein vs. butter.
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This isn't about fat as harmful to your health. It's not. Butter is great and it's not going to clog your arteries, neither will bacon grease, or any other animal fats. It's about eating meat and not just consuming fats by themselves to hit some magic macro percentage.
I eat a lot of fat. A lot of fat. I can often get over 200 grams of fat in a day. I don't add any fat to my meals and I don't eat fat by itself. It's not about avoiding fat. If you eat enough meat, you'll get plenty of fat along with it.8 -
That's also interesting. I do the BPC in the mornings to help kick start getting the fat and it keeps me filled til lunch. I've also heard others say exactly what you have about the fat not being harmful. I just have to say that my nurse brain is still wrapping around that - I've spent 30 years learning differently, you know? But I'm open minded enough to give this a solid go and trust the process. Not only have I seen success in many forms just from being here but I have friends who swear by Keto and are doing wonderfully. So far it's working wonderfully for me too! I love meat and was worried I was eating too much because my protein intake was much higher than what my "macros are set for". Of course I know I can change that. I've read - again, consider me uneducated - that the protein will convert in a negative way sometimes so keeping it a little lower is better. That's why the article was interesting - giving me new info to think about and assimilate with other information.
Thanks for the info and the reinforcement!1 -
There is a persistent myth that excess protein is going to turn to blood-glucose and harm weight loss or even kick you out of keto. That's part of why I quoted the part that I did. It's really, really hard to over-eat protein to the amount where it causes issues. And, if you're not eating meat that is intentionally defatted, you'll likely have more of an issue with the overall calories before the protein is a problem. I mean, if you're eating nothing but boiled/skinless chicken breast then you might have issues with protein before the calories become the main issue, but it should be obvious that you shouldn't be eating 5+ pounds of fat-free chicken breast each day.5
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Thanks @fitgoat interesting article.0
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That was an interesting article, despite the dig at BPC... I like BPC! LOL
And more than I like many fatty cuts of meat. That's just me though.
I do agree that we don't HAVE to hit a fat macro while losing weight. If we don't get enough fat, we can use our own supplies of fat. Stressing that this is a high fat diet can turn some people off the diet, but I think sometimes if we don't stress high fat then people have a hard time getting in their calories. They still may be focusing on skinless chicken breasts, white fish, and low fat dairy products.
I don't want to eat high protein. I don't enjoy meat enough for that. My 20% protein suits me fine. Trying to get to 25% protein was rather difficult and not very enjoyable... Calling my diet low carb and high protein would be wrong.
What is a "high" macro anyways? I tend to consider moderate as 15-25 or 30% for protein. Low protein is <15% and high is... 30 or 35+%?
For fat, I consider >50% as high, 25-50% as moderate, and <20% as low.1 -
This leaves me feeling confused about protein and keto, as there's so many pages out there warning that keto should be moderate protein not high protein, because of the whole protein being converted to glucose thing. Is there a calculation to estimate at what point you've hit the too much protein-to-glucose conversion phenomenon? I really don't want to be lower than my protein needs either. I always aim to hit a certain amount of protein, and the rest is filled mostly with fat and whatever carbs come along for the ride (aiming to keep them below 25 net).2
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... but maybe this is really just more of a warning to be mindful that you are getting enough protein, and that low-carb/keto is *not* meant to also be low protein?2
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olivebeanhealthy wrote: »... but maybe this is really just more of a warning to be mindful that you are getting enough protein, and that low-carb/keto is *not* meant to also be low protein?
I think that's it. Keto doesn't need to be low protein.2 -
olivebeanhealthy wrote: »[. . .] warning that keto should be moderate protein not high protein, because of the whole protein being converted to glucose thing. Is there a calculation to estimate at what point you've hit the too much protein-to-glucose conversion phenomenon?
This is exactly the problem. There are so many people/places warning about high protein and saying that it will be turned into glucose and/or kick you out of ketosis. There is no calculation to estimate at what point you've hit too much protein, mainly because such a point does not exist (for most people without diabetes--some diabetics are more sensitive to dietary protein). Gluconeogenesis is almost certainly demand-driven and not supply-driven. This means, it will create as much glucose as your body needs, but it won't just randomly create more because there's more protein around. If you have a higher than normal electric bill, you can use extra money you earned to pay it off. If you earn extra money, it doesn't have to go towards the electric bill, if there's no need. Same with protein and glucose. If you need more glucose, extra protein can be used to make it. If you don't need any more glucose, the extra protein won't be used to create more than you need.
There is probably a point where excess protein is turned into glucose just because there's nothing left to do with it. This point is well above normal levels of consumption though. This article mentions 4.4g/kg. That means a 70 kg person (155 pounds) would need to be consuming over 300 grams of pure protein and it still wouldn't show a negative effect. I've hit over 300 grams, but only on days when my calories were also super high (well over 3,000 calories-in). At levels above that, the calories are probably the bigger concern if you're not losing weight.
Now, there is some evidence that you can increase the amount of ketones by limiting protein. That is, you can force the process to down-regulate by supplying an insufficient amount of protein to meet the needs for the body to create glucose from it. People who have been restricting protein and stop restricting it might see a decrease in blood ketones, but it almost certainly won't be enough to kick them out of ketosis. I've hit 160 grams in a single meal, and over 200 grams in a day, and been safely about the 0.5 mmol/L considered to be ketosis. Back when I was testing, I routinely hit 0.9-1.3 on my meter eating unrestricted protein. Some people advocate restricting protein to push the numbers higher (into the 1.5-2.5 mmol/L range), but I am not convinced there is much benefit. You can form your own conclusions about that.
Basically, eating normal meats in normal amounts that approximate your caloric needs/goals, you have no need to worry about excess protein. You're not going to be going high enough to hurt your low carb success.4 -
What is a "high" macro anyways? I tend to consider moderate as 15-25 or 30% for protein. Low protein is <15% and high is... 30 or 35+%?
For fat, I consider >50% as high, 25-50% as moderate, and <20% as low.
I don't like percentages here. For what I consider "high" protein, it would be grams per kg of body weight. I have a higher limit than most people, and don't consider anything under 3g/kg high. The keto-calculator considers 2g/kg high and 2.2g/kg to be the highest it will recommend. Now, 2.2g/kg could be anywhere from 19% of my calories to 34% of my calories according to that calculator (depending on if I am eating to a deficit or not). And that's sticking with their very conservative values. They basically set it that high because there has been no demonstrated benefit from going higher, not because there has been any demonstrated problems going higher.
Most meat will be around 20-40% protein to fat. If you're adding any butter, fatty sauces, and/or cooking it with fats then it will be lower. Percentages are not the best way to look at it until you have body weight, ideal body weight, and calories figured out.1 -
I think that's where all the protein becomes glucose info comes from... In the case of diabetics or anyone with hyperinsulinemia... The demand is higher for glucose because of the over production of insulin. So, on those people, it's better to limit protein while reversing the hyperinsulinemic condition.
So it is completely demand driven. But, with hyperinsulinemia, the body perceives a higher demand. The insulin resistance will correct itself in time and the insulin production will come down as well. But just like eating fat with carbs can slow a blood sugar spike, eating fatty meats should also help in this case too, I think. Makes sense to me. So, eating a lean chicken breast is more similar to eating a low fat refined carb in that way by my way of thinking... I don't know if that is making sense the way I have it in my head. Lol4 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I think that's where all the protein becomes glucose info comes from... In the case of diabetics or anyone with hyperinsulinemia... The demand is higher for glucose because of the over production of insulin. So, on those people, it's better to limit protein while reversing the hyperinsulinemic condition.
So it is completely demand driven. But, with hyperinsulinemia, the body perceives a higher demand. The insulin resistance will correct itself in time and the insulin production will come down as well. But just like eating fat with carbs can slow a blood sugar spike, eating fatty meats should also help in this case too, I think. Makes sense to me. So, eating a lean chicken breast is more similar to eating a low fat refined carb in that way by my way of thinking... I don't know if that is making sense the way I have it in my head. Lol
You are probably on to something, especially because protein does increase insulin (which is not a negative for most people, by the way, because this helps the amino acids get into muscles) but that increase will be more extreme for some diabetics and will cause their blood sugar to decrease more than it should, which will result in an over-reaction where more glucose is created from protein than was really needed. In any case, diabetics should monitor their blood glucose response to meals and have an idea of how individual foods affect them. I doubt anyone has the expertise to give universal advice to all diabetics. They each need to become their own expert on their own body.
In a way, that's the situation we're all in. We all need to figure out what is best for our own bodies. Everyone has different levels of carb tolerance, protein requirements, etc.
Edit: It is the protein/insulin response that I think causes many of the zero-carb people to stress eating large meals, meals that will ensure you aren't hungry for at least 4-6 hours after you eat them. They don't encourage people eating lots of small meals. I suspect it's because experience has shown that eating that way doesn't give them same results. It's probably because eating that way keeps insulin higher than baseline all day. Eating 2-3 large meals brings the insulin higher than the baseline for a little while, but also provides plenty of time where it's down at the baseline before it rises again.4 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I think that's where all the protein becomes glucose info comes from... In the case of diabetics or anyone with hyperinsulinemia... The demand is higher for glucose because of the over production of insulin. So, on those people, it's better to limit protein while reversing the hyperinsulinemic condition.
So it is completely demand driven. But, with hyperinsulinemia, the body perceives a higher demand. The insulin resistance will correct itself in time and the insulin production will come down as well. But just like eating fat with carbs can slow a blood sugar spike, eating fatty meats should also help in this case too, I think. Makes sense to me. So, eating a lean chicken breast is more similar to eating a low fat refined carb in that way by my way of thinking... I don't know if that is making sense the way I have it in my head. Lol
You are probably on to something, especially because protein does increase insulin (which is not a negative for most people, by the way, because this helps the amino acids get into muscles) but that increase will be more extreme for some diabetics and will cause their blood sugar to decrease more than it should, which will result in an over-reaction where more glucose is created from protein than was really needed. In any case, diabetics should monitor their blood glucose response to meals and have an idea of how individual foods affect them. I doubt anyone has the expertise to give universal advice to all diabetics. They each need to become their own expert on their own body.
In a way, that's the situation we're all in. We all need to figure out what is best for our own bodies. Everyone has different levels of carb tolerance, protein requirements, etc.
Edit: It is the protein/insulin response that I think causes many of the zero-carb people to stress eating large meals, meals that will ensure you aren't hungry for at least 4-6 hours after you eat them. They don't encourage people eating lots of small meals. I suspect it's because experience has shown that eating that way doesn't give them same results. It's probably because eating that way keeps insulin higher than baseline all day. Eating 2-3 large meals brings the insulin higher than the baseline for a little while, but also provides plenty of time where it's down at the baseline before it rises again.
Unfortunately, as a diabetic, I definitely have to restrict my protein to reasonable levels, I can't chow down on as much as I'd like or could eat. I've eaten low carb for many years and even when eating LCHF, it wasn't until my third and latest attempt (5+ months in now) that I finally reduced the protein and upped the fats a bit more and found that groove I needed to reduce and eventually eliminate my need for insulin injections. Though I will note that I believe I am getting enough protein to fuel my body, even though I could happily eat more, cuz slow cooked meat and seared steaks are just yummy!!
Like you said, I think diabetics should do a lot of self experimentation as our metabolism is very broken and the standard rules don't apply.4 -
And what part of that statement would you disagree with? Excess protein is burned as fuel. There is no storage mechanism for protein (outside the tissues already mentioned). Excess protein is converted to forms that can be used as fuel. You may disagree with the conclusions that it won't be stored as fat, but he does cite a study showing that excess doesn't end up as fat.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24834017CONCLUSIONS:
Consuming 5.5 times the recommended daily allowance of protein has no effect on body composition in resistance-trained individuals who otherwise maintain the same training regimen. This is the first interventional study to demonstrate that consuming a hypercaloric high protein diet does not result in an increase in body fat.
Of course, this is with well trained individuals. The average man on the street might see different results.
And there is another over-feeding study he also references (this one normal weight stable healthy people):
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1103993Conclusions Among persons living in a controlled setting, calories alone account for the increase in fat; protein affected energy expenditure and storage of lean body mass, but not body fat storage.0 -
PaleoInScotland wrote: »
I am appreciative of reading this thread. I am insulin resistant, and I often wonder about the amount of protein I should eat, and fat. My liver is a bit taxed at the moment, my naturopath and I are not quite sure why, but he's hesitant for me to eat more fats.. work in progress:)
.Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »0 -
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There's more than one way to burn it. And, even then glucose production seems to progressively increase when the demand is higher than the supply of incoming glucose.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22139560When protein intake surpasses the physiological needs of amino acids, the excess amino acids are disposed of by three major processes: 1. Increased oxidation, with terminal end products such as CO₂ and ammonia 2. Enhanced ureagenesis i. e. synthesis of urea linked to protein oxidation eliminates the nitrogen radical 3. Gluconeogenesis, i. e. de novo synthesis of glucose. Most of the amino groups of the excess amino acids are converted into urea through the urea cycle, whereas their carbon skeletons are transformed into other intermediates, mostly glucose. This is one of the mechanisms, essential for life, developed by the body to maintain blood glucose within a narrow range, (i. e. glucose homeostasis). It includes the process of gluconeogenesis, i. e. de novo synthesis of glucose from non-glycogenic precursors; in particular certain specific amino acids (for example, alanine), as well as glycerol (derived from fat breakdown) and lactate (derived from muscles). The gluconeogenetic pathway progressively takes over when the supply of glucose from exogenous or endogenous sources (glycogenolysis) becomes insufficient. This process becomes vital during periods of metabolic stress, such as starvation.
This would only be after the ability of the body to use it for lean body mass, hormones, or tissues is exceeded. That ability is not insignificant. The studies (posted before) have shown that a significant amount of the excess can be turned into lean body mass.0 -
Like for the whole BPC ding...sugary drinks : IIFYM :: BPC : Keto/LCHF; it's just a waste of liquid kcals3
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Fascinating article. I doubt it will change the way I eat since what I do is working well for me, but I enjoyed reading a differing point of view of the LCHF way of eating. Maybe he is just splitting hairs, I don't know, but I give him points for the dig on BPC. Lol0
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KarlynKeto wrote: »Fascinating article. I doubt it will change the way I eat since what I do is working well for me, but I enjoyed reading a differing point of view of the LCHF way of eating. Maybe he is just splitting hairs, I don't know, but I give him points for the dig on BPC.
But it's tasty! LOL 1 -
I am so split on the BPC subject. I like the taste, acquired it while doing keto, but I just don't see the need to be adding extra fat to my meat these days. So, I will allow myself a cup or two of it on rare occasions as a treat. I no longer will drink it every day. I still end up having two meals a day on most days. That's the same amount I was having with BPC, except now I am doing it without a few hundred extra calories of fat in the morning.0
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A couple studies that more directly address protein intake and GNG:
Dietary Proteins Contribute Little to Glucose Production, Even Under Optimal Gluconeogenic Conditions in Healthy Humans
Fast 12h.
Eat 23g protein, 19g fat.
In the 8h that followed, body produced 50g glucose, 4g of which came from protein intake.
But they didn't supply very much protein, so most of the protein and glucose came from endogenous sources.
What we want to know is what happens when glycogen is depleted (because that's what happens on a low-carb diet) and then you eat a bunch of protein.
As you might expect, GNG goes up.
Gluconeogenesis and energy expenditure after a high-protein, carbohydrate-free diet
In conclusion, increased gluconeogenesis contributes to increased EE after consumption of an H diet for 1.5 d following a decrease in body glycogen stores. Forty-two percent of the increase in EE after the H diet was explained by an increase in gluconeogenesis. The energy cost of gluconeogenesis was 33% of the energy content of glucose.
OK, that's kind of interesting. GNG goes up (as well as EE) when glycogen is depleted by exercise. But what about under conditions of homeostasis on a low-carb diet? I've never seen that question addressed, but we do know what happens during glucose homeostasis of fasting....
What does all this tell us? Only that context matters a lot. Keto is most similar to the fasting context, which drives GNG pretty hard.3 -
As I understand it, the thing with protein and fat storage is that it has to go through two conversions to get to that point -- first to a usable fuel (aka - glucose), then triglycerides to be stored -- both of these aren't particularly efficient, and with protein already having only 4 calories per gram, probably only half of that would actually be free to be stored as fat, just from the conversion process.
Additionally, when you add a glycogen-depleted state on top of that, excess energy is going to go to glycogen, first. Even if all of your protein went to glucose, the GNG conversion eats about a third of those calories, so it takes 1.5 grams of protein to get the caloric amount of one gram of glucose.
According to this study, we can hold 15g/kg body weight in glycogen. So a 200lb person can store about 1300 calories in glycogen.
That means it requires about 1,700 calories, or 425 grams, of protein just to refill the glycogen stores.
I'm not sure on the efficiency of de novo lipgenesis (and not coming up with an easily found answer), but let's assume it also has a 66% efficiency rate (like GNG). Therefore, in order to store one pound of body fat (3,500 calories), the body needs 4,655 calories worth of glucose (3500*1.33), and about 6,200 (3500*1.33*1.33) calories worth of protein, or 1550 grams of protein just for fat storage.
Over the course of a week, that only amounts to 900 calories worth of protein, which is "only" 225g. However, that's after the body uses the protein for maintaining/increasing lean mass, maintain amino acid stores, hormones, etc. and then uses the glucose converted from protein directly as fuel, refilling glycogen stores, etc.
That's a boatload of protein, and it becomes very apparent why it's next to impossible to gain fat from protein, itself.5 -
Dragonwolf wrote: »As I understand it, the thing with protein and fat storage is that it has to go through two conversions to get to that point -- first to a usable fuel (aka - glucose), then triglycerides to be stored -- both of these aren't particularly efficient, and with protein already having only 4 calories per gram, probably only half of that would actually be free to be stored as fat, just from the conversion process.
Additionally, when you add a glycogen-depleted state on top of that, excess energy is going to go to glycogen, first. Even if all of your protein went to glucose, the GNG conversion eats about a third of those calories, so it takes 1.5 grams of protein to get the caloric amount of one gram of glucose.
According to this study, we can hold 15g/kg body weight in glycogen. So a 200lb person can store about 1300 calories in glycogen.
That means it requires about 1,700 calories, or 425 grams, of protein just to refill the glycogen stores.
I'm not sure on the efficiency of de novo lipgenesis (and not coming up with an easily found answer), but let's assume it also has a 66% efficiency rate (like GNG). Therefore, in order to store one pound of body fat (3,500 calories), the body needs 4,655 calories worth of glucose (3500*1.33), and about 6,200 (3500*1.33*1.33) calories worth of protein, or 1550 grams of protein just for fat storage.
Over the course of a week, that only amounts to 900 calories worth of protein, which is "only" 225g. However, that's after the body uses the protein for maintaining/increasing lean mass, maintain amino acid stores, hormones, etc. and then uses the glucose converted from protein directly as fuel, refilling glycogen stores, etc.
That's a boatload of protein, and it becomes very apparent why it's next to impossible to gain fat from protein, itself.
yes! Even I [mostly] understood that, thanks @Dragonwolf2 -
Minor quibble with your analysis, @Dragonwolf. Most of your readers won't be depleting their muscle glycogen. That would require intense exercise of all muscle groups. The guys in that study (one of whom was a competitive swimmer) did a bunch of swimming and running to deplete muscle glycogen.
Low-carb typically just depletes liver glycogen, which is a much smaller reserve.2 -
KarlynKeto wrote: »Fascinating article. I doubt it will change the way I eat since what I do is working well for me, but I enjoyed reading a differing point of view of the LCHF way of eating. Maybe he is just splitting hairs, I don't know, but I give him points for the dig on BPC.
But it's tasty! LOL
Haha, it really is good but the only time I tried it I was nauseous for hours! They said it kills your appetite but I didn't realize HOW0 -
Minor quibble with your analysis, @Dragonwolf. Most of your readers won't be depleting their muscle glycogen. That would require intense exercise of all muscle groups. The guys in that study (one of whom was a competitive swimmer) did a bunch of swimming and running to deplete muscle glycogen.
Low-carb typically just depletes liver glycogen, which is a much smaller reserve.
Right, but my point was that glycogen is a storage mechanism, and doesn't require the second conversion, meaning it will store the most calories from protein of the two mechanisms, and yet, you still lose a third of those calories in the act of conversion, alone. I included it to illustrate the loss from conversion to glucose.
The numbers I provided for fat storage were solely for converting the protein to fat for storage, with no numbers for any other process. In other words, the 1550 grams of protein is the amount needed just for fat storage, and the number goes up from there to deal with all the other processes that take precedence.
Had I included glycogen storage in that number, it would be close to 2,000 grams, or 8,000 calories, of protein for both empty-to-full glycogen stores and a pound of fat storage, so my original fat storage number of 1,550g/6,200 calories still works out for a sedentary person with full muscle glycogen stores.1 -
More for meat: my new word for the day thanks to Richard David Feinman .... antidiscarnivorianism. (not arguing for meat but rather opposed to inaccurately attacking meat)
(Bio: Richard David Feinman is Professor of Cell Biology (Biochemistry) at the State University of New York (SUNY) Downstate Medical Center in Brooklyn, New York. Dr. Feinman’s original area of research was in protein chemistry and enzyme mechanism, particularly in blood coagulation and related processes.)
Interesting read - his blog "Carrot Nation" https://feinmantheother.com/2014/05/08/carrot-nation/0
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