Dawn Phenomenon
ansonrinesmith
Posts: 741 Member
So, has anyone had to deal with this? Is there anything you've found that helps?
Here is my scenario from yesterday (but is similar every day, just with higher numbers yesterday).
I woke up yesterday with a high number 339. I had an Atkins shake for breakfast and by lunch my number was down to 249. I had another shake for lunch. I had a salad for dinner at Subway on my way home from work, so didn't measure till I got home. 5 minutes after dinner, I was home and had a 201. I had nothing else to eat before bedtime, 3.5 hours later and I was at 168. After 8 hours sleep, I wake up with a 216. An increase almost 50 points, after just sleeping and seeing a steady decline all day.
I am not currently on insulin, and am usually able to control my numbers better than this, but many mornings I'm seeing an increase over my bedtime number.
Here is my scenario from yesterday (but is similar every day, just with higher numbers yesterday).
I woke up yesterday with a high number 339. I had an Atkins shake for breakfast and by lunch my number was down to 249. I had another shake for lunch. I had a salad for dinner at Subway on my way home from work, so didn't measure till I got home. 5 minutes after dinner, I was home and had a 201. I had nothing else to eat before bedtime, 3.5 hours later and I was at 168. After 8 hours sleep, I wake up with a 216. An increase almost 50 points, after just sleeping and seeing a steady decline all day.
I am not currently on insulin, and am usually able to control my numbers better than this, but many mornings I'm seeing an increase over my bedtime number.
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This is not something I have experienced, but I've head of it. I believe it is called Neoglucogenesis. A process by which the body (liver, I believe) forms new sugar to either combat fasting or in response to our circadian rhythms getting ready to wake us up.
I've head people say getting a little more fiber in the afternoon or evenings helps them and also spreading out their calorie intake more evenly throughout the day.
I'm sure someone with more experience on this will post to you soon.
Good luck0 -
My numbers are like that too. Looking forward to seeing responses you get.0
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Eat a bit of protein before bed...even string cheese will help0
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I experience this, no solution. I tried one of the Extend bars, a slowly releasing over 6 hrs or so, eating protein, etc right before sleeping but nothing has helped so far. The only thing that some have success with is a slow release insulin. Fortunately I have lower numbers (although they still need to decrease) and have no experience with insulin.
looking forward to others' solutions1 -
Perhaps, judging by what you said you ate all day, you're not eating enough during the day. Your numbers would go down during the day, but at night, your liver releasing stored glucose. Try eating more during the day, and as someone else suggested, protein as part of your evening snack.
Good luck.0 -
Do you take Metformin ER? I found switching to taking that in the evening was helpful in keeping my morning number down. I also don't eat anything after dinner. Good luck!2
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I never used to eat passed 8pm but since I have seen a dietician for both sports and diabetes she told me it's important to eat a snack before bed since I am off my metformin or my liver will start to belch glucose over night if I don't have food...so now I eat a snack...she said a fruit and a dairy and formerly I would have never touched a snack like that since its pretty carby. However, you might try it since my fasting is better when I eat the snack!! Go figure...i eat all food groups balanced and whole foods mostly.ansonrinesmith wrote: »So, has anyone had to deal with this? Is there anything you've found that helps?
Here is my scenario from yesterday (but is similar every day, just with higher numbers yesterday).
I woke up yesterday with a high number 339. I had an Atkins shake for breakfast and by lunch my number was down to 249. I had another shake for lunch. I had a salad for dinner at Subway on my way home from work, so didn't measure till I got home. 5 minutes after dinner, I was home and had a 201. I had nothing else to eat before bedtime, 3.5 hours later and I was at 168. After 8 hours sleep, I wake up with a 216. An increase almost 50 points, after just sleeping and seeing a steady decline all day.
I am not currently on insulin, and am usually able to control my numbers better than this, but many mornings I'm seeing an increase over my bedtime number.
It might be worth a try and also to maybe see a dietician. If you are doing high fat low carb not many of them go for that but are of great help if you do all the food groups type of diet.
I am at goal and have lost approx 76 lbs.0 -
I hope I don't come across as patronizing, but since you asked .....
(FYI, I was running over 300 when I discovered my T2D... I'm pretty much under control now through diet and modest exercise, plus Glucophage XR 4x 500mg, including one right before bed to curb dawn phenomenon.)
If 168 is your daily low BG, and you're up to 215 by morning, and sometimes over 300, in this neophyte's view, a major intervention is needed. Dawn phenomenon is an issue, but your extremely high BG levels would be my immediate concern.
If you're under the care of a competent health professional, there is no way you should be running such high numbers and not be on insulin, because your own insulin is not able to keep your BG under control. This puts you at risk for a whole slew of complications, co-morbidities, etc.
I don't know much about your diet, but I'd guess that your daily carb intake is much higher than your body can handle, so I would not suggest increasing your consumption of carbs.
T2Ds are individuals, and what's good for the gander may cook the goose..... But the ONLY diet that has worked for me and many, many other T2Ds is Low Carb-High Fat, and in my case, a daily calorie cap.
Why? Because for many T2Ds, by sharply limiting the foods that most drastically affect your BG levels (carbs) and limiting those that tend to raise your BG to a lesser degree if your intake exceeds your need (protein), your pancreas and liver get a chance to get off the treadmill and relax as your BG drifts back down to acceptable levels. (In my case, if I eat too many calories, my weight will start to climb and so will my BG levels.)
My quick and dirty recs in a nutshell -
If you're serious about getting your BG under control, I'd suggest you take a few moments and skim the LCD group's collection of resources at http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10103966/start-here-the-lcd-launch-pad
Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution and Westman, Phinney, and Volek's New Atkins For A New You are good resources - they have lots of discussions and explanations that are not only detailed, but also clear for the guy on the street.
The best weapon for many T2Ds is your BG meter - test before each meal and 30, 60, 90 and 120 minutes after each meal, plus before and around 45 minutes after exercising, and don't stop until you've systematically eliminated foods that send your BG up and determined what role exercise might play in the process. And log everything you put into your mouth. Try to find a good endocrinologist if your insurance covers it, and beware of dietitians who tell you to eat carbs. (Moderation is great, but liquor in moderation is not a good idea for alcoholics...)
For better or worse, we're all science projects!2 -
This is true.
I hope to stop my own global warming before my globe gets any warmer or larger.
My blood sugar will go down if I fast, or if I eat fewer calories and carbohydrates.
That is state of the science project to date. Minimal knowledge, but useful.For better or worse, we're all science projects!
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I am a bit different than most in that if I eat in the evening, even if it is just fat or protein, my FBG is up. If the food had carbs, even if it is only around 10g, my FBG gets quite high (for me - 6's to 7). It comes down in the morning after I've eaten. Weird.
I follow a LCHF diet (mainly Dr Bernstein's Diabetes Solution), am no longer overweight, walk an hour a day, and take no diabetes meds.
Apple cider vinegar or a bit of evening wine brings it down a bit, but the best solution for me, by far, is to stop eating by 6pm. Annoying since I prefer eating later in the day.2 -
@nvmomketo - That's wild! ..... do you get a daily 12+ hour fast out of the deal?
Very interesting post, thx.1 -
@nvmomketo -
PS. And what happens if you don't eat in the morning - does your FBG still drift back down?1 -
- That's wild! ..... do you get a daily 12+ hour fast out of the deal?
Very interesting post, thx.
My fast is usually more like 10 hrs if I eat in the evening. I usually drink BPC, with a small (1/8th of a) serving of protein powder, in the morning. My first real meal is usually around 11 to 2:00. When I do stop eating at 6pm, my fast is more like 14 hours, until my first BPC of the day.PS. And what happens if you don't eat in the morning - does your FBG still drift back down?
Yes, it drifts down, just a bit more slowly. I have (mild) reactive hypoglycemia so my BG is usually lower an hour or two after eating than before I started. I once had an oral glucose tolerance test done, and they wouldn't let me leave until I ate because my BG wouldn't stop dropping. LOL
When I fasted for over a couple of days, my BG was very steady. After half a day of fasting it went low (into the 3's - or 60's) but then it leveled out in the igh 4's and low 5's (85 to 95) but the mornings were usually the highest (low to mid 5's or 90 to 105). Not as consistantly high though when I skip food.... I think my body must fill my liver first every time I eat! LOL
So my problems are too much insulin and a liver that goes over board.
Also, I have high growth hormone. My IGF1 was high to the point where we were looking into pituitary problems. The bright side of that is that I put on muscle mass fairly easily. The downside is that can lead to insulin resistance and dawn phenomenon too... at least that's how I understand it.
The body is weird.
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Sounds like you've made pretty good progress on your rather unique personal science project.
It's like we're each dealt a random metabolic card in a blind poker game, with our goal being to figure out, from the scant info we can gather and assess, just which card we drew ....
??
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LOL
To be honest, LCHF hasn't helped me as much a I'd hoped. It helped a great deal at first but my numbers became worse a few months back without any real dietary change except that I stopped losing weight after hitting a size 8/10. More calories. Now my BG is around where it used to be before going LCHF, and worse when I eat more carbs. Oh well, we do what we can right? 2 -
LOL
To be honest, LCHF hasn't helped me as much a I'd hoped. It helped a great deal at first but my numbers became worse a few months back without any real dietary change except that I stopped losing weight after hitting a size 8/10. More calories. Now my BG is around where it used to be before going LCHF, and worse when I eat more carbs. Oh well, we do what we can right?
Yep. Take good notes, and aim for whatever looks like the bullseye !1 -
LOL
To be honest, LCHF hasn't helped me as much a I'd hoped. It helped a great deal at first but my numbers became worse a few months back without any real dietary change except that I stopped losing weight after hitting a size 8/10. More calories. Now my BG is around where it used to be before going LCHF, and worse when I eat more carbs. Oh well, we do what we can right?
I'm pleased as punch with LC. I haven't seen 500s in a year now.
Stopped 1 med, dropped my insulin from 80 units x2 to 25 units 1x
First time in 32 years great bg#s No hunger!!! What's not to like.
Bonus down almost 90 lbs.
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KenSmith108 wrote: »LOL
To be honest, LCHF hasn't helped me as much a I'd hoped. It helped a great deal at first but my numbers became worse a few months back without any real dietary change except that I stopped losing weight after hitting a size 8/10. More calories. Now my BG is around where it used to be before going LCHF, and worse when I eat more carbs. Oh well, we do what we can right?
I'm pleased as punch with LC. I haven't seen 500s in a year now.
Stopped 1 med, dropped my insulin from 80 units x2 to 25 units 1x
First time in 32 years great bg#s No hunger!!! What's not to like.
Bonus down almost 90 lbs.
Awesome.
I'm not knocking LCHF! I am MUCH better off with low carb, it just didn't fix it for me. It definitely improved things for me.2 -
i had to do the sameshinycrazy wrote: »Do you take Metformin ER? I found switching to taking that in the evening was helpful in keeping my morning number down. I also don't eat anything after dinner. Good luck!
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Accelerated glucose production and impaired glucose utilization due to nocturnal surges in growth hormone secretion.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2859524
This is pretty interesting. It's human growth hormone being released while you sleep. I suspect a role for cortisol as well.
There are probably a bunch of different patterns for Dawn Phenomenon, but for those of us who experience high morning BG due to hormones, taking melatonin before bed might help.0
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