Losing muscle on Keto
erinseattle
Posts: 105 Member
I have been Keto since October 2014. At or near goal weight for 3 years. Just completed a 10-week challenge at the gym and lost 1.5 lbs fat and 3.5 lbs muscle. I'm shocked by the muscle loss as everything I've read says Keto is muscle-sparing. I do track my food and exercise, and my net calories hover around 1200. My trainer wants me to increase my net calories to at least 1400, which I agree with, but I still don't understand why I would lose muscle since I am currently at 26.4% body fat (plenty of fuel for a fat adapted body). She also wants me to bump up my protein a bit as my workout intensity (heavy lifting & cardio) puts me in the athlete zone. A few years ago I did a gym challenge and lost zero muscle and my body fat was 24% - food plan at that time was just CICO, lots of protein, and white knuckling the hunger. I love how I feel eating Keto, so I have no plans to change that. Any idea why I would lose muscle? As I understand it, "starvation mode" doesn't apply to bodies that are fat adapted.
More info: I'm 5'2", 49 years old.
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I'm not sure the science behind it, but I used an in depth me to calculator to help me figure my macros and it had warnings like for me I'm suppose to eat 98g of protein if I am mostly sedentary to 162g of protein if I put my muscles under a lot of new stress or with a large caloric deficit to prevent muscle loss. I usually stay around 130g and eat 1500cal/day which according to the me to calculator is a large deficit considering I work out everday. Not sure if that helps since idk what your macros are.
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@sadsongkrysy - my macros have been Keto: 5% carbs, 25% protein, 75% fat. My protein is around 75g/day.1
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Two things:
Most measures of body fat analysis have a high degree of error and this is especially true of bio-electrical impedance methods such as a hand-held device like an OMRON.
Fat Free Mass includes everything that is not fat. Typically when you lose weight you will lose fat free mass that is not skeletal muscle.
So it's possible that you are seeing a fat free mass reduction without losing muscle mass.
Having said that, it's also possible that you've lost muscle.
The most important factor towards skeletal muscle maintenance is your ability to provide a sufficient stimulus. If your diet prevents you from training sufficiently then this is without question, a barrier towards skeletal muscle maintenance.3 -
@SideSteel - agree on possible error but in this case I'm using the same device to measure and it has a breakdown for my body water mass, bone mass, and intra/extra cellular water mass as well as other measurements so I feel fairly good about the numbers. Have been doing these body analyses a few times a year for a few years and at least for my purposes, they seem pretty valid.
My question is about my food intake as it relates to my training. As someone who is firmly fat adapted, I feel like I shouldn't be losing muscle.0 -
if I were you I'd consider adjusting a bit, allowing more protein if you work out more often, mine are 5/35/60. From what I've researched its really hard to over do protein (if your worried about it becoming glucose), but protein is essential to muscle growth so I'd say if you work out consistently it's probably too low.erinseattle wrote: »@sadsongkrysy - my macros have been Keto: 5% carbs, 25% protein, 75% fat. My protein is around 75g/day.
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That could be water. Maybe one was before you period an another measure after?
It doesn't sound right. There is no reason why your body would go after protein instead of fat. It doesn't make sense.
If you are eating adequate protein, exercising, and not in a huge caloric deficit, my guess would be that measurement was wrong. I'm guessing though. Others may know more.0 -
erinseattle wrote: »@SideSteel - agree on possible error but in this case I'm using the same device to measure and it has a breakdown for my body water mass, bone mass, and intra/extra cellular water mass as well as other measurements so I feel fairly good about the numbers. Have been doing these body analyses a few times a year for a few years and at least for my purposes, they seem pretty valid.
My question is about my food intake as it relates to my training. As someone who is firmly fat adapted, I feel like I shouldn't be losing muscle.
What method of body fat analysis are you using?
Whether or not you're "fat adapted" isn't necessarily relevant towards whether or not you're maintaining skeletal muscle. Substrate utilization during training or rest isn't going to matter. I'd look at training variables provided protein intake is reasonable.1 -
First off, congratulations on being KETO for roughly the past 2 years.
From my own experiences I have used allot of body fat estimation systems that I have found are not accurate and should be acknowledged for being so.
Electrical Impedance - small electron shocks to find out your body fat percentage, and water weight. These can very from machine to machine, and use a formula based on both your height and age. ANY system that takes those into its estimated calculations can be VERY wrong, and should not be trusted.
Bod Pod - These machines do well on individuals who are of average physical measurement size, those that are will receive correct readings, those that are physically big (ie large bone structure, large chested, very tall, or obese) will throw off its calculations drastically.
DEXA- more below on that..
And lastly the fitness club favorite of the Body Fat Caliper.
I am going to take a stab at this and say that your estimated loss was based on a body caliper. A Caliper would question any estimated muscle loss based on your skin fold changes and your current weight, versus your previous weight prior to the challenge. These can be off completely as it would only measure your subcutaneous fat (ie. butt dimples, cellulite, wobbly bits) - essentially the External body fat below your skin, no change there would indicate that your weight changes (up or down) are due to you gaining or losing muscle.
What this can not measure is your internal fat aka Visceral fat. This fat is the fat that surrounds your organs, and is the most dangerous (ie diabetes, blood pressure, heart attack) fat you can have on your body.
If I am correct in my assumption, then the true results can be VERY misleading.
The only true and accurate way to know your body fat, muscle mass, bone density, and water weight would be to have a DEXA scan done before and after your challenges.
A DEXA scan is not very expensive, and would certainly give you an exact target approach.
Be warned - a DEXA scan can tell you the physical differences between your right side and left side arms and legs..making some people VERY self conscious. ....lol
Now, if I am wrong about the above - not a problem, I hope that others may learn a bit about these systems for future reference.
If you were to say - "Jay, my muscle results were determined by a DEXA scan"....I would say that you certainly have something internally wrong in your body's hormone system and should see a doctor......I dont think that this is the current case however...1 -
First off, congratulations on being KETO for roughly the past 2 years.
From my own experiences I have used allot of body fat estimation systems that I have found are not accurate and should be acknowledged for being so.
Electrical Impedance - small electron shocks to find out your body fat percentage, and water weight. These can very from machine to machine, and use a formula based on both your height and age. ANY system that takes those into its estimated calculations can be VERY wrong, and should not be trusted.
Bod Pod - These machines do well on individuals who are of average physical measurement size, those that are will receive correct readings, those that are physically big (ie large bone structure, large chested, very tall, or obese) will throw off its calculations drastically.
DEXA- more below on that..
And lastly the fitness club favorite of the Body Fat Caliper.
I am going to take a stab at this and say that your estimated loss was based on a body caliper. A Caliper would question any estimated muscle loss based on your skin fold changes and your current weight, versus your previous weight prior to the challenge. These can be off completely as it would only measure your subcutaneous fat (ie. butt dimples, cellulite, wobbly bits) - essentially the External body fat below your skin, no change there would indicate that your weight changes (up or down) are due to you gaining or losing muscle.
What this can not measure is your internal fat aka Visceral fat. This fat is the fat that surrounds your organs, and is the most dangerous (ie diabetes, blood pressure, heart attack) fat you can have on your body.
If I am correct in my assumption, then the true results can be VERY misleading.
The only true and accurate way to know your body fat, muscle mass, bone density, and water weight would be to have a DEXA scan done before and after your challenges.
A DEXA scan is not very expensive, and would certainly give you an exact target approach.
Be warned - a DEXA scan can tell you the physical differences between your right side and left side arms and legs..making some people VERY self conscious. ....lol
Now, if I am wrong about the above - not a problem, I hope that others may learn a bit about these systems for future reference.
If you were to say - "Jay, my muscle results were determined by a DEXA scan"....I would say that you certainly have something internally wrong in your body's hormone system and should see a doctor......I dont think that this is the current case however...
DEXA still has a reasonable degree of error to it. It's likely the most accurate of the methods listed but it's not true and accurate.
The only possible way to accurately assess would be autospy which isn't practical for obvious reasons lol.
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-5-the-pitfalls-of-body-fat-measurement-parts-5-and-6-skinfolds-and-dual-energy-x-ray-absorptiometry-dexa/the-pitfalls-of-body-fat-measurement-part-6-dexa/2 -
@SideSteel - Tanita scale, professional model.
I know my caloric deficit has probably been too extreme, but I thought my body would burn more fat in the absence of calories. At this point I do think I will bump my protein up and pay more attention to my hunger. And I should probably re-read Phinney & Volek's book on low carb performance.
One more piece of info: I do know I overtrain and don't rest enough.2 -
Overtraining without allowing the muscles to rest can cause muscular breakdown. Especially if your not getting enough protein!3
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erinseattle wrote: »@SideSteel - Tanita scale, professional model.
I know my caloric deficit has probably been too extreme, but I thought my body would burn more fat in the absence of calories. At this point I do think I will bump my protein up and pay more attention to my hunger. And I should probably re-read Phinney & Volek's book on low carb performance.
One more piece of info: I do know I overtrain and don't rest enough.
Those are terribly inaccurate as they use bioelectrical impedance.
It's possible you're losing muscle but you can't determine this with the measurement method you are using.
if you're not in too steep of a deficit, you're consuming adequate protein, and you're training intelligently and with good performance (and not getting too lean) then you're doing the things you need to do to retain muscle.
This is true for ketogenic and non ketogenic diets alike.2 -
@jaymo602 & @SideSteel - thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts, it really means a lot to me and also you made me laugh really hard at "autopsy" -1
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I think I'm putting too much value in the body analysis. I do tend to be hyper about this sort of thing as I'm really anxious about gaining weight back.
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You look fantastic! I wouldn't want to lose that either.
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Thank you @nvmomketo0
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erinseattle wrote: »I think I'm putting too much value in the body analysis. I do tend to be hyper about this sort of thing as I'm really anxious about gaining weight back.
Great Job!...stop beating yourself up over this.0 -
@jaymo602 - excellent advice0
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First off, congratulations on being KETO for roughly the past 2 years.
From my own experiences I have used allot of body fat estimation systems that I have found are not accurate and should be acknowledged for being so.
Electrical Impedance - small electron shocks to find out your body fat percentage, and water weight. These can very from machine to machine, and use a formula based on both your height and age. ANY system that takes those into its estimated calculations can be VERY wrong, and should not be trusted.
Bod Pod - These machines do well on individuals who are of average physical measurement size, those that are will receive correct readings, those that are physically big (ie large bone structure, large chested, very tall, or obese) will throw off its calculations drastically.
DEXA- more below on that..
And lastly the fitness club favorite of the Body Fat Caliper.
I am going to take a stab at this and say that your estimated loss was based on a body caliper. A Caliper would question any estimated muscle loss based on your skin fold changes and your current weight, versus your previous weight prior to the challenge. These can be off completely as it would only measure your subcutaneous fat (ie. butt dimples, cellulite, wobbly bits) - essentially the External body fat below your skin, no change there would indicate that your weight changes (up or down) are due to you gaining or losing muscle.
What this can not measure is your internal fat aka Visceral fat. This fat is the fat that surrounds your organs, and is the most dangerous (ie diabetes, blood pressure, heart attack) fat you can have on your body.
If I am correct in my assumption, then the true results can be VERY misleading.
The only true and accurate way to know your body fat, muscle mass, bone density, and water weight would be to have a DEXA scan done before and after your challenges.
A DEXA scan is not very expensive, and would certainly give you an exact target approach.
Be warned - a DEXA scan can tell you the physical differences between your right side and left side arms and legs..making some people VERY self conscious. ....lol
Now, if I am wrong about the above - not a problem, I hope that others may learn a bit about these systems for future reference.
If you were to say - "Jay, my muscle results were determined by a DEXA scan"....I would say that you certainly have something internally wrong in your body's hormone system and should see a doctor......I dont think that this is the current case however...
DEXA still has a reasonable degree of error to it. It's likely the most accurate of the methods listed but it's not true and accurate.
The only possible way to accurately assess would be autospy which isn't practical for obvious reasons lol.
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-5-the-pitfalls-of-body-fat-measurement-parts-5-and-6-skinfolds-and-dual-energy-x-ray-absorptiometry-dexa/the-pitfalls-of-body-fat-measurement-part-6-dexa/
In one way I feel like you intentionally took the time to discount and completely invalidate all that I wrote in a single sentence.
But at the same time I am waiting for someone to chime in that they had an autopsy done.3 -
First off, congratulations on being KETO for roughly the past 2 years.
From my own experiences I have used allot of body fat estimation systems that I have found are not accurate and should be acknowledged for being so.
Electrical Impedance - small electron shocks to find out your body fat percentage, and water weight. These can very from machine to machine, and use a formula based on both your height and age. ANY system that takes those into its estimated calculations can be VERY wrong, and should not be trusted.
Bod Pod - These machines do well on individuals who are of average physical measurement size, those that are will receive correct readings, those that are physically big (ie large bone structure, large chested, very tall, or obese) will throw off its calculations drastically.
DEXA- more below on that..
And lastly the fitness club favorite of the Body Fat Caliper.
I am going to take a stab at this and say that your estimated loss was based on a body caliper. A Caliper would question any estimated muscle loss based on your skin fold changes and your current weight, versus your previous weight prior to the challenge. These can be off completely as it would only measure your subcutaneous fat (ie. butt dimples, cellulite, wobbly bits) - essentially the External body fat below your skin, no change there would indicate that your weight changes (up or down) are due to you gaining or losing muscle.
What this can not measure is your internal fat aka Visceral fat. This fat is the fat that surrounds your organs, and is the most dangerous (ie diabetes, blood pressure, heart attack) fat you can have on your body.
If I am correct in my assumption, then the true results can be VERY misleading.
The only true and accurate way to know your body fat, muscle mass, bone density, and water weight would be to have a DEXA scan done before and after your challenges.
A DEXA scan is not very expensive, and would certainly give you an exact target approach.
Be warned - a DEXA scan can tell you the physical differences between your right side and left side arms and legs..making some people VERY self conscious. ....lol
Now, if I am wrong about the above - not a problem, I hope that others may learn a bit about these systems for future reference.
If you were to say - "Jay, my muscle results were determined by a DEXA scan"....I would say that you certainly have something internally wrong in your body's hormone system and should see a doctor......I dont think that this is the current case however...
DEXA still has a reasonable degree of error to it. It's likely the most accurate of the methods listed but it's not true and accurate.
The only possible way to accurately assess would be autospy which isn't practical for obvious reasons lol.
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-5-the-pitfalls-of-body-fat-measurement-parts-5-and-6-skinfolds-and-dual-energy-x-ray-absorptiometry-dexa/the-pitfalls-of-body-fat-measurement-part-6-dexa/
In one way I feel like you intentionally took the time to discount and completely invalidate all that I wrote in a single sentence.
But at the same time I am waiting for someone to chime in that they had an autopsy done.
Sorry, I agree with the idea that the measurement method is likely the culprit as I stated earlier. I was replying to you because there's a lot of misconceptions about body fat analysis, DEXA included.
It wasn't my intent to invalidate your entire post, it was my intent to clarify that DEXA isn't entirely true and accurate.2 -
First off, congratulations on being KETO for roughly the past 2 years.
From my own experiences I have used allot of body fat estimation systems that I have found are not accurate and should be acknowledged for being so.
Electrical Impedance - small electron shocks to find out your body fat percentage, and water weight. These can very from machine to machine, and use a formula based on both your height and age. ANY system that takes those into its estimated calculations can be VERY wrong, and should not be trusted.
Bod Pod - These machines do well on individuals who are of average physical measurement size, those that are will receive correct readings, those that are physically big (ie large bone structure, large chested, very tall, or obese) will throw off its calculations drastically.
DEXA- more below on that..
And lastly the fitness club favorite of the Body Fat Caliper.
I am going to take a stab at this and say that your estimated loss was based on a body caliper. A Caliper would question any estimated muscle loss based on your skin fold changes and your current weight, versus your previous weight prior to the challenge. These can be off completely as it would only measure your subcutaneous fat (ie. butt dimples, cellulite, wobbly bits) - essentially the External body fat below your skin, no change there would indicate that your weight changes (up or down) are due to you gaining or losing muscle.
What this can not measure is your internal fat aka Visceral fat. This fat is the fat that surrounds your organs, and is the most dangerous (ie diabetes, blood pressure, heart attack) fat you can have on your body.
If I am correct in my assumption, then the true results can be VERY misleading.
The only true and accurate way to know your body fat, muscle mass, bone density, and water weight would be to have a DEXA scan done before and after your challenges.
A DEXA scan is not very expensive, and would certainly give you an exact target approach.
Be warned - a DEXA scan can tell you the physical differences between your right side and left side arms and legs..making some people VERY self conscious. ....lol
Now, if I am wrong about the above - not a problem, I hope that others may learn a bit about these systems for future reference.
If you were to say - "Jay, my muscle results were determined by a DEXA scan"....I would say that you certainly have something internally wrong in your body's hormone system and should see a doctor......I dont think that this is the current case however...
DEXA still has a reasonable degree of error to it. It's likely the most accurate of the methods listed but it's not true and accurate.
The only possible way to accurately assess would be autospy which isn't practical for obvious reasons lol.
http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-5-the-pitfalls-of-body-fat-measurement-parts-5-and-6-skinfolds-and-dual-energy-x-ray-absorptiometry-dexa/the-pitfalls-of-body-fat-measurement-part-6-dexa/
In one way I feel like you intentionally took the time to discount and completely invalidate all that I wrote in a single sentence.
But at the same time I am waiting for someone to chime in that they had an autopsy done.
Sorry, I agree with the idea that the measurement method is likely the culprit as I stated earlier. I was replying to you because there's a lot of misconceptions about body fat analysis, DEXA included.
It wasn't my intent to invalidate your entire post, it was my intent to clarify that DEXA isn't entirely true and accurate.
No harm no foul.....have a great day guys and gals!1 -
erinseattle wrote: »I'm shocked by the muscle loss as everything I've read says Keto is muscle-sparing.
There's a lot of mythology out there. Keto is not muscle sparing compared to high carb.
If you're not eating enough to meet your minimal glucose needs, you will convert protein to glucose. If you're not eating enough protein to cover both that need and your muscle building needs, then you'll lose muscle.
Ketosis is called "muscle sparing" because during periods of starvation, ketones allow your glucose needs to decrease from about 130g/d to 40g/d. If it weren't for ketones, you'd need to convert a LOT more protein to glucose during starvation, and you'd lose a LOT more muscle. So the context is very important. Ketones are muscle-sparing during starvation.
In your case, you're not eating enough carbs to meet your minimal needs, so you're using protein to make glucose, and your protein level of 75g probably isn't enough to maintain muscle mass.3 -
@erinseattle Wow! You look amazing! What an inspiring transformation!!! Congrats to you!1
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@wabmester - I was hoping you would comment and I think you're right. My trainer has been saying this but I guess I've held on too tightly to the Keto macros when I should be paying greater attention to hunger and muscle fatigue.0
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I have like lost around 150 pounds and added back around 20 pounds of muscle.
IMO body shaping is all about sleep, 50 or so grams of extra protein, and smart limited duration lifting.
I cycle winter lifting and rest/protein with summer slight defects while triathlon training
Body fat percentages are somewhat a silly measure. You can tell where you have fat by a simple pinch and look in the mirror, use a tape measure.
My expensive scale varies by 3% daily. The tape measure and mirror are free, and honest.
Settling in with the idea you look fine now, and any body shaping will be slow and gradual is probably something to consider.3 -
Couldn't you also just increase protein enough to increase calories and meet the glucose and muscle needs?
It doesn't have to be carbs, right? Just need a source for glucose that isn't muscle.3 -
lifeextension.com/magazine/2008/5/d-ribose-energize-your-heart-save-your-life/page-01
@erinseattle skip down to the Energizing Skeletal Muscle part of the above. I do not use this brand of D-Ribose but I find their research works posted to be very helpful on all supplements. It has only been 30 days since I started experimenting with D-Ribose. At this point I have no thumbs up or down on D-Ribose. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome research using D-Ribose was what initially got my attention plus the fat loss mouse study.
It talks about how long one should rest muscles after a workout. D-Ribose cut the time from like 6 days to 2 days I read somewhere.
If anything catches your interest you can Goggle forward from that point.1 -
@Sunny_Bunny_ I would certainly think I could just increase protein and REST. Researching the supplement mentioned above also.
As for carbs, I will likely be a little less restrictive: have more cauliflower if I want it, treat myself to full fat yogurt on occasion, stuff like that. Phinney & Volek say that athletes can handle more carbs, and I wouldn't ever go back to grains, sugar, or starchy vegetables but more avocado - YES.1 -
erinseattle wrote: »@Sunny_Bunny_ I would certainly think I could just increase protein and REST. Researching the supplement mentioned above also.
As for carbs, I will likely be a little less restrictive: have more cauliflower if I want it, treat myself to full fat yogurt on occasion, stuff like that. Phinney & Volek say that athletes can handle more carbs, and I wouldn't ever go back to grains, sugar, or starchy vegetables but more avocado - YES.
Even though vegetables don't agree with me, I've always thought that if the only carbs people are eating are from non starchy vegetables, there's probably not much reason to worry about limiting them. I think you've got the right idea with your plan. Though, I'm certainly no expert. I just think grains, sugar and starches are really the big problem carbs, like you basically said.
Best of luck on gaining back that muscle! Sounds like you've got it all figured out.1 -
@Sunny_Bunny_ This is not the first time I have been advised to eat more. I'm finding it very difficult to transition out of weight loss mode. I've done enough research to know that I need more rest/sleep/days off, but the exercise is more for my brain than it is for my body. Just interesting how mental all of this is for me. Really thankful for this board - I learn SO MUCH from all of you!3
This discussion has been closed.