Sodium saves? Godfather of Paleo not a fan of salt licks
RalfLott
Posts: 5,036 Member
I was surprised to hear Loren Cordain react critically in a couple interviews to high sodium consumption.
(But, as he often says, in science, the devil is in the details.)
Starts around 4:30
https://youtu.be/0t1YmTX_vq8
(But, as he often says, in science, the devil is in the details.)
Starts around 4:30
https://youtu.be/0t1YmTX_vq8 0
Replies
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Just listened and have to admit that I thought in the absence of high blood pressure, our salt consumption in support of this WOE was healthy ......not a big fan is an understatement???1
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Just listened and have to admit that I thought in the absence of high blood pressure, our salt consumption in support of this WOE was healthy ......not a big fan is an understatement???
Ulp. Yeah, I suppose that's sugar-coating it a little...
He even disagrees with what constitutes high blood pressure.
I think his cut-off is 110/70...
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A bump due to heavy traffic recently in high-sodium recommendations (which I follow, BTW).0
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He states that he is against a sodium intake in excess of 10gm a day. That's a lot of salt! More than is ever recommended with this woe to maintain electrolytes. That's my take on it.1
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FWIW: PRE-KETO when I had high blood pressure and was placed on BP meds, my doc's recommendation was <1500 grams of sodium/day. When blood pressure went down and BP became "normal" through weight loss and exercise and BP meds were discontinued, I was surprised to see her recommended sodium intake was not to exceed 4000 grams/day. I thought it would be lower.
I don't really monitor my daily salt intake and still do not salt most of my foods HOWEVER I supplement as needed (which is usually daily) with a cup of salty broth with extra salt added. Also I tend to now thoroughly enjoy eating the foods I previously abstained from due to their sodium content (ham, sauerkraut, dill pickles, shrimp, crab, etc). Blood pressure remains "my normal" without medication which is lower than the often used 120/80. Knocks on wood.2 -
How much salt are we supposed to have in mg?0
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http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10358179/keto-flu-dizzy-weak-tired-headaches-cramping-muscles-electrolyte-imbalance-may-be-your-problem#latest
Guideline is 3000mg-5000mg. ETA: review the link above from our Launch Pad. So much valuable information.1 -
No, no, no! I don't care about the salt but please do not take away my yogurt! That's the only food that I love and can still eat!
::flowerforyou::1 -
How much salt are we supposed to have in mg?
3000-5000mg a day, every day are standards for MINIMUM amounts. Some find 3000 is their minimum while others need 5000 and it's not unusual to feel best with even more.
That's why I say minimum... because more is usually even better. Of course, there's a maximum too and that will vary just as much from one person to the next.0 -
But what about Dr. Cordain saying salt causes osteoporosis & insomnia, which my husband has and it also causes high bp which I have though it is controlled by medication - do we STILL have 3000-5000 mg or is that just for ppl without diseases probably induced by excess salt. And we really do love salt - the both of us.1
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I was surprised to hear Loren Cordain react critically in a couple interviews to high sodium consumption.
(But, as he often says, in science, the devil is in the details.)
Starts around 4:30https://youtu.be/0t1YmTX_vq8
Not only him. Generally "academic" paleo is a low sodium diet (being one of the points to restore the correct potassium/ sodium ratio). And it is also not low, but moderate in carbs.0 -
He is saying that sodium in excess of 10,000 grams causes these problems! I think we're okay folks!1
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Not sure I'd go that far... unless you know your BP isn't affected!1
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I can imagine that before LCHF, while consuming lots of fast food, and processed junk, 10,000 grams of sodium wouldn't be hard to achieve!
The person doing the interview wasn't asking about sodium in relation to Paleo type eating. It was about sodium intake in general. That was how I saw it. I don't believe our (people eating LCHF) need of 3000-5000 gm to maintain electrolyte balance is a problem.0 -
I'm the odd man out here, in that I believe that adding salt is completely unnecessary. I do salt my food. It's something I enjoy, but I don't think we need to add salt to what we eat to be healthy. I also drink coffee, which is something I also believe is not healthy. Like the man in the video states, it is improbable that we evolved to require added salt. It just wasn't an option for most of our existence. I know people who don't use salt or seasonings of any sort. They manage just fine without developing problems.
Stefansson says kicking the mental habit of using salt was one of the hardest adaptations for him. He was of the opinion that it was necessary for maintaining health, until he was faced with the reality of healthy people who didn't use it. We don't need as much salt as we consume. There's likely more than enough sodium in the actual foods themselves. I also don't think salt is harmful in the amounts we consume, at least it's likely not harmful in those amounts.2 -
Just so there is no confusion.
1 gram = 1000 Milligrams
I've seen a couple of posts referencing 10,000 grams which is equivalent to 10 KG or approx 22 lbs. I'm pretty sure eating 22lbs of salt would be lethal. LOL4 -
I'm the odd man out here, in that I believe that adding salt is completely unnecessary.
I've never found adding salt necessary, either. There are some foods I do salt, but very few - and I do it for taste. I make a lot of my own food (typically putting in less salt than the recipe calls for). I've never had any of the problems that salt is supposed to cure, and have been suspicious of the suggestions to add salt to fix them. I just didn't see any point in arguing with people who are sure that adding salt would fix things.
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daylitemag wrote: »Just so there is no confusion.
1 gram = 1000 Milligrams
I've seen a couple of posts referencing 10,000 grams which is equivalent to 10 KG or approx 22 lbs. I'm pretty sure eating 22lbs of salt would be lethal. LOL
Thank you. I just skimmed the thread and was about to say something similar.1 -
OK this is something I heard - it could be an old wife's tale (which I am) - if during your mother's pregnancy she had a hard time the amniotic water was more saline - then when you are already programmed to really like salt but if on the other hand she had an easy pregnancy the amniotic fluid is less saline and you will prefer a sweet. The percentage of ppl who prefer to sweet is much greater than the salt preference. Evolution says find the "sweet stuff first for quicker energy source"0
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I guess I don't mind drinking some ketoade. I have low blood pressure as is anyway, so I DO need it, low carb or otherwise.1
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My apologies on the gm/mg typo!0
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I'm the odd man out here, in that I believe that adding salt is completely unnecessary.
I've never found adding salt necessary, either. There are some foods I do salt, but very few - and I do it for taste. I make a lot of my own food (typically putting in less salt than the recipe calls for). I've never had any of the problems that salt is supposed to cure, and have been suspicious of the suggestions to add salt to fix them. I just didn't see any point in arguing with people who are sure that adding salt would fix things.
I'd prefer not to have to supplement salt. But I must. It helps almost immediately. I think genetic variability plays a part in this. Just like everything else, right?
So IF you experience weakness, headaches, and lightheadedness, supplement. If not, don't.
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This is what I got of the diet doctor site this morning:
"If your blood pressure is high despite medication you should not take extra salt or bouillon. Doing so could raise the blood pressure even higher, and it is not wise to risk that"2 -
baconslave wrote: »I'd prefer not to have to supplement salt. But I must. It helps almost immediately. I think genetic variability plays a part in this. Just like everything else, right?
So IF you experience weakness, headaches, and lightheadedness, supplement. If not, don't.
That pretty much nails it.
It's probably not a bad idea to keep a steady eye on your BP as your diet takes hold (even if your Janus-faced scale is recalcitrant).2 -
I have high bp, so I've always been cautious about the extra sodium, though I definitely don't have a low sodium diet. Within a week of starting LCHF, I found my blood pressure dropping really low, so I quit my diuretic pill instead of upping my sodium, which solved the problem. Since then, I've only had sodium issues on hot and humid days or days that I've exercised a lot and have lost a lot of fluid. After suffering the ill effects of dehydration I've since learned to up my sodium beforehand for the most part, but it has still creeped up on me unexpectedly (like when I don't bother checking the weather before I go for a long walk).
I have a bowl of miso soup with a tbsp of gluten free soy sauce on days when I know I'll be losing more fluids than normal, but that's the only time I up my sodium.2 -
FWIW: PRE-KETO when I had high blood pressure and was placed on BP meds, my doc's recommendation was <1500 grams milligrams of sodium/day. When blood pressure went down and BP became "normal" through weight loss and exercise and BP meds were discontinued, I was surprised to see her recommended sodium intake was not to exceed 4000 grams milligrams/day. I thought it would be lower.
I don't really monitor my daily salt intake and still do not salt most of my foods HOWEVER I supplement as needed (which is usually daily) with a cup of salty broth with extra salt added. Also I tend to now thoroughly enjoy eating the foods I previously abstained from due to their sodium content (ham, sauerkraut, dill pickles, shrimp, crab, etc). Blood pressure remains "my normal" without medication which is lower than the often used 120/80. Knocks on wood.
OOPS!
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It's probably not a bad idea to keep a steady eye on your BP as your diet takes hold (even if your Janus-faced scale is recalcitrant).
Right. Caution ALWAYS should precede enacting internet advice. Especially if you are on meds or have medical issues.
Just a comment in general: We see a whole lot of people who genuinely do experience keto-flu. They have no idea what to do about it or how to prevent it in the first place. When I say a lot, I mean A LOT. It seems like 90% of WOE woes (snicker) are related to the sodium issue due to the biological processes involved in producing and adapting to ketones as fuel. And this effects many different carb levels, not just keto.
The recommended range for sodium is a range for a reason. Some people need less, others need more. And even in the individual, that need may change over time.
People get annoyed about all the "electrolytes electrolytes electrolyte" being squawked like a giant parrot on audio loop, but it really is a thing for many people. A simple experiment and simple fix for a common symptom group. But they came up with the acronym YMMV for a reason. Meds are one of the reasons for that. And so is genetic variability, level of ketone production, and level of adaptation. We're all a n=1.3 -
baconslave wrote: »Just a comment in general: We see a whole lot of people who genuinely do experience keto-flu. They have no idea what to do about it or how to prevent it in the first place. When I say a lot, I mean A LOT. It seems like 90% of WOE woes (snicker) are related to the sodium issue due to the biological processes involved in producing and adapting to ketones as fuel. And this effects many different carb levels, not just keto.
The recommended range for sodium is a range for a reason. Some people need less, others need more. And even in the individual, that need may change over time.
People get annoyed about all the "electrolytes electrolytes electrolyte" being squawked like a giant parrot on audio loop, but it really is a thing for many people. A simple experiment and simple fix for a common symptom group. But they came up with the acronym YMMV for a reason. Meds are one of the reasons for that. And so is genetic variability, level of ketone production, and level of adaptation. We're all a n=1.
Bingo!
Stephen Phinney regularly points out that the transition from burning glucose to consuming fat as our body's primary fuel takes time - at least a week and in many case, quite a bit longer.
His view is that our bodies need time to retool as fat-burners, but during that transition period, they miss the carbs they became accustomed to throwing in the fire over the first X decades of our nutritionally-misguided lives.**
Electrolyte supplements can contribute to a smoother transition for many of us and smoother fat-burning in the long haul for some of us.
But as this Roche chart politely suggests, our metabolism isn't a simple machine; there are a lot of places to oil.
** Why misguided? Well, let's see... why are we all here?
(Hint: diabetes, obesity, high blood pressure, CVD, autoimmune or gastrointestinal issues....)1 -
(...)
But as this Roche chart politely suggests, our metabolism isn't a simple machine; there are a lot of places to oil.
(...)
OMG!
::flowerforyou::1 -
<slurp>0
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